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A question for the gay and lesbian BBers.

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  • First I want to say that I really appreciate the support and views that have been expressed. This thread has become quite disturbing and so I think I'm going to pull out until things have calmed down. I'm happy to talk to anyone that wishes to have a reasonable discussion, or ask reasonable questions, but I am unwilling to wage cyber war with a hate mongering biggot.

    Sannois clearly has no interest in learning or sharing, but if he is ever graced with a change of heart, I would ask him to ponder this:
    I will keep my sexual orientation absolutely quiet the minute you do. The minute I don't have to hear my friends talk about their boyfriends. The minute I don't have to acknowledge that my parents are married. The minute tv stops depicting gratuitous displays of heterosexual affection. So yeah. When that happens then I'll stop telling people that I'm gay. Damn straight I want approval for my choices and from the looks of it, I am going to get it. Anyway, with a little luck the karma gods will keep you awake late into the night, worrying about how we are going to convert your children in a parading sea of rainbow. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    PS - any friends reading this, I really don't mind hearing about your boyfriends! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

      The problems of homophobia and discrimination were NOT created by gay people. They were created by the ignorant morons among us who believe that because someone is different, they're a lesser person, or worse, they somehow "deserve" to be beaten, tied to a fence, and left to die.

      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Ya know, it's not as if this country hasn't been through these sorts of "growing pains before...most of us who post here probably aren't old enough to actually remember the decades of civil rights reform. But just because someone is not old enough, doesn't mean they have to be ignorant of it either...go buy some books (like Race and Class in White America), rent some movies (like Mississippi Burning), and visit the National Civil Rights Museum (located in Memphis, TN) if you need some more info. That huge civil upheaval was all about insuring the equal rights and protections to African-Americans as already guaranteed in certain Constitutional amendments (passed almost a century before). Not that we don't still struggle with these issues today, but at least things are better. Or course, the ERA still hasn't been passed. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Anyway, I look at the civil rights reform as a hope that within my lifetime we'll be able to move past many of these issues and make everyone's lives closer to our national ideals. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

      ****
      NYHR

      Comment


      • Sannois - when working at a local hospital, I had a colleague who was gay. No, he didn't speak about it and always referred to "his wife", although we all knew he had a male partner. The saddest thing for me happened when he generously offered to host the department Christmas party one year. We all showed up, only to see no signs of his "wife". Finally, someone looking for the bathroom discovered that this person was hiding in a bedroom so as not to offend or upset anyone. Naturally, he was dragged out to join the party and, hopefully, soon realised that no-one cared. They were both really nice people and made a great couple. Sadly, that is the reality when you don't or can't speak out.

        [This message was edited by akrogirl on Aug. 09, 2002 at 11:52 PM.]

        Comment


        • (and I'm not sure why because I think I've answered most of your questions)

          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
          Why do they need to proclaim. What goes on behind closed doors is there business. I cant think of a single legal form that asks if you are gay or straight! How could or would they be ridiculed if no one knew they were gay? It was done before, and what ever made people think they need ed to self proclaim?? No I am not threatened, just dont see why you all feel they need to be treated differently. Or the same or whatever. But when they go around threatening law suits because people dont rejoice in there sexual preferences that is going to far.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          The form may not ask if you are gay or straight because that would clearly be illegal, but what about if someone were to apply to public housing and there are spaces for family members names? You want to know how they can be discriminated against, when 'John and John' want to rent an apartment? And the landlord doesn't approve of that sort of thing? Should they pretend they are brothers or mere roomates because of someone else's ignorance? What about cases where the partner knows about preferences of organ donation or medical wishes and where these preferences are denied because they are not legally-recognized family? Why should someone be denied promotions because of whom they choose to share a bed? They don't need to "self-proclaim" in order to find discrimination, they simply need to try and live as ordinary Americans live and they can run smack into discrimination every day.

          Frankly, I can't imagane any gay person caring whether or not you approve of their life... I think they only want to prevent individuals from having the power to deny them ordinary freedoms and opportunities.

          ****
          NYHR

          Comment


          • Ah yes, it's the age-old backup plan... when all else fails, personally attack the administrator. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
            Erin. What an incredible choice for administrator you make. And just when did I show any disrespect or name calling?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            If you'll read my post above, I said name-calling wasn't a prerequisite of disrespect. I think the "you people"s, the angry face, the "oh please"s, and the swipe at Mardi Gras were plenty disrespectful.

            If you had come on this thread and merely expressed a different point of view, rather than proclaiming that everyone who disagrees with you "doesn't get it," you might have gotten a better reception. That was my point.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have been jumped on from every angle yet I have remained calm, only trying to have my questions answered, but alas they have gone unanswered, as I knew they would...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            You've gotten several direct responses to your assertions. (They weren't questions, after all... just your opinion of how the world should be.)

            I agree wholeheartedly with Mardi Gras. Unless you, Sannois, also expect every heterosexual person out there to keep their mouth firmly shut about anything remotely to do with attraction to the opposite sex -- commenting on people they find attractive, talking about dating, talking about their significant other, introducing people to their significant other -- then you ARE holding gays to a different standard of treatment.

            And as Serendipity said, that just ain't the way "liberty and justice for all" is supposed to work.

            Comment


            • Decency will prevail? Oh good! That means in another few decades, it will be as unheard-of for gays to hide their sexual preferences as it is for "colored" people to drink from separate water fountains! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

              Mardi Gras, kudos for handling this little brouhaha with grace, and I hope this thread will get back onto the very interesting subjects that were being broached, and that you will continute to post. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

              Comment


              • While I don't agree with you Sannois (Oh *shudder* I think you are so wrong), I have to give you points for being the one person from the other side brave enough to say anything.
                (You do realize you're just making the topic longer, right? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Because now there is more to respond to.)
                (I suddenly remember why when this came up last time and we discussed it on JB's board I felt so sick afterward.)

                Comment


                • because I wanted to read it and can't find it, even using the search...

                  Great topic; good discussion; and thanks to Mardi Gras, Robby, Jeaneete, and Jair for the wonderful input.

                  FlightCheck

                  ~when we're free to love anyone we choose,
                  when this world's big enough for all different views;
                  when we all can worship from our own kind of pew;
                  we shall be free - Garth Brooks~

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlightCheck:

                    did Sannois delete a reply?
                    because I wanted to read it and can't find it, even using the search...

                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Yeah, but more like 6 replies. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Erin & I quoted parts of some of them...so you might be able to get the gist of last night's discussion. I wasn't talking to myself! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

                    Perhaps after some thoughtful consideration, Sannois doesn't believe those assertions anymore.

                    ****
                    NYHR

                    Comment


                    • and have missed all the fun here! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

                      Robby, you crack me up!

                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My favorite stereotype is the big pumped up gym god. You know the one. Looks like Tarzan, sound like Jane.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Having spent an evening of frolic with Heidi, Robert, and Robby, all I can say is that they're great people to hang with!!! I've already told Robby that Robert is lucky I'm not a gay man, but if I were, Robby could be in trouble too! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] They are both "catches", and have a wonderfully comfortable relationship which made both Heidi and I inquire as to what their "secret" to a healthy relationship was...

                      Overt PDA (Public Display of Affection) grosses me out no matter who is displaying it.

                      You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

                      I'm just "average"

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by akrogirl:
                        when working at a local hospital, I had a colleague who was gay. No, he didn't speak about it and always referred to "his wife", although we all knew he had a male partner. The saddest thing for me happened when he generously offered to host the department Christmas party one year. We all showed up, only to see no signs of his "wife". Finally, someone looking for the bathroom discovered that this person was hiding in a bedroom so as not to offend or upset anyone. Naturally, he was dragged out to join the party and, hopefully, soon realised that no-one cared. They were both really nice people and made a great couple. Sadly, that is the reality when you don't or can't speak out.

                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        I've bene following this thread but haven't posted until I read your post. That story almost made me cry, how horrible for them to feel like they had to hide their love and how dare anyone condemn them for that.

                        Gay/straight whatever, I don't care, everyone deserves to be true to themselves and live in pride without anyone judging them for being who they are.

                        I'm straight, that's who I am- so what. I have gay friends, that's who they are- so what.
                        Life is too short for bull$hit.

                        ~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~
                        ~ they tease you cause they like you ~

                        Comment


                        • Well, my computer kindly took care of my "time out" dilemma. My internet crashed. Anyway, thanks for the kind responses, Erin. All was very well said (better than I can do when I start to get riled) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img] Hence the time out. Now that I have somewhat regained my composure, I will post here again.

                          Anyway, kudos to you for being a rockin' administrator!
                          Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                          Comment


                          • I've been on vacation, and unfortunately it took me a day (between loads of laundry) to wade thru the 10 pages.

                            Ok, here are my disjointed thoughts on this subject-excuse me if I digress, there are so many facets to this discussion.

                            Firstly, Robby and I have had discussions to a degree about this. My son is almost 10, and a ballet dancer. This is the boy who went one year to Halloween as Snow White, and asked for an American Girl doll for his 5th birthday. Do we care as parents? I for one think that our son is awesome, and such an individual, and we are blessed to have him. Will he turn out to be gay? Has he been gay all along? I have no idea, but he certainly has never been the "macho" manly man type boy who wants to blow things up and such. And you know what? That's fine with us-he is a great athlete, he loves to cook, and someday in the near future you may see this kid as the lead dancer in some ballet company, or dancing on Broadway.

                            I find dance and riding very similar in a lot of ways-yes,I see them both as arts. And, yes, there are lots of gay men that are drawn to both avocations. Why? Like others mentioned, is it because there is more acceptance? Or, chicken or the egg, there has grown acceptance becauset there have been so many gays in the sport. I dont' know, and dont' really care. Personally,for my son, if he is gay or straight, we could care less. Dance is a great place, because, quite honestly, we figure there will plenty of mates to pick from whichever way he choses to go [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .If that's offensive, so be it. He has always been different, and viva la difference. Would he have a better life if he is straight? Probably less hassles and stress, but I truly believe you are who you are from the get go. I haven't parented any differently, and yes, I could have banned and "girly" stuff from the beginning. Is that going to change anything? I sincerely doubt it.

                            I am sure that if and when the day comes that he does come out, my inlaws will be johnny on the spot to let my husband and I know how we "encouraged" his gayness. Yeah right.

                            Ok, so that's one part. I saw a fascinating show a few weeks ago on Discovery I think-"building the human" or something. They were talking about DNA and sexuality. The body is an amazing thing, they had a girl on who had been "programmed" genetically to be a male, but something "went wrong" in utero, and thus the body then says, oops, make it a girl. This gal is technically a man, but is a woman. Fascinating.

                            The thing I found most intriguing was this researcher found that maleness for want of a better term comes from the amount of testosterone present from the mother while the fetus is growing. He has stated that one can look at one's hand (I know this works for men, don't know about women) that if you hold up your hand, palm out or down, that if the ring finger is longer than the pointer finger, you had more testosterone while developing. He did an experiment in measuring athlete's finger lenghths and predicted the boy with the longest ring finger would win a race, and he did. A long pointer finger indicates more estrogen in the fetus as it develops.

                            Ok, I found that fascinating-I, as a female, have a considerably longer ring finger, does this make me more "male"? I am pretty non-feminine in a lot of ways....would more feminine type males exhibit longer pointer fingers? I have no idea-and I was wondering if when I saw this show, if it ties into being able to ride better.

                            I have always felt that feminine types tend to have better skills with animals..Oh oh, forgot this one.. Also on the show they profiled a woman who "knew" in her heart she was a man. It followed her progress over the year of taking testosterone....the md's thought this would be an awesome guinea pig, and did batteries of tests on her. The most interesting thing I thought was this-as a woman, they show brain scans that women can "read" emotions far easier than men. Very little of their brain was "lit up" while guaging emotions of photos of faces. The "male brain" that she became, showed that it worked very hard to read emotion. As a man, "she" became stronger, had faster manual dexterity, but lost some grammar skills.

                            Anyway, this is all probably a non sequitor, but I felt it all tied in-our bodies are all in a state of flux-hormones play large parts in who we are, as do our environment, etc. If my son turns out to be a gay man, then so be it. He has our total support, and I will love him the same as always, and welcome his partner into the family with open arms. I guess what floors me about the lack of tolerance towards gays/lesbians is that the ONLY thing that the intolerant seem to see is the SEX part of the relationship.

                            I mean, when I see a hetero couple, the first thing I think of when I see them is not "oh, I wonder how they have sex?".....but, honestly, that is the first thing most folks think about gay couples. I for one could care less if you, as a straight couple do it hanging from a chandelier-or if a gay couple does it another way.

                            We were in Vancouver BC this weekend (sorry Jair, I don't know you, would have called, drat)...and it was Gay Pride Week. I mentioned this to someone, and they rolled their eyes. "When are they going to have "straight pride week?" .....so many intolerant folks think that gays are making such a big deal about things (ie Sannois's posts, which unfortunately I missed, as she deleted them)....but all they are looking for is EQUAL rights under law, and for tolerance. I am ashamed to be an American when Americans bandy about intolerance under the guise of Christianity. *sigh*....there are my thoughts on this subject.....sorry for the length.....thanks for all your great thoughts on this subject, I have enjoyed reading this thread.

                            aimee

                            The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
                            Ellipses users clique ...
                            TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                            Comment


                            • Your son is a REALLY lucky kid! Gay or not he's going to grow up with advantages very few kids have. Good for you!
                              Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                              Comment


                              • I think what saddens me the most in the don't-ask don't-tell policy is who and what we lose. Just think about it, economists pinpoint exactly where the southern economy began it's turn around, 1968. Why? The civil rights movement brought African Americans into jobs they previously were denied.

                                So, if you deny gays and lesbians the right to marry, you're saying they aren't a proper family, nor are their children (don't make me count the number of gay/lesbian couples I know with kids), nor should their parents and siblings mention their happiness. We ALL lose.

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MardiGras:
                                  Your son is a REALLY lucky kid! Gay or not he's going to grow up with advantages very few kids have. Good for you!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Ditto!!! lilblackhorse, what a truely magnificant parent you are [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                                  ~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~
                                  ~ they tease you cause they like you ~

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

                                    The problems of homophobia and discrimination were NOT created by gay people. They were created by the ignorant morons among us who believe that because someone is different, they're a lesser person, or worse, they somehow "deserve" to be beaten, tied to a fence, and left to die.

                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    Ya know, it's not as if this country hasn't been through these sorts of "growing pains before...most of us who post here probably aren't old enough to actually remember the _decades_ of civil rights reform. But just because someone is not old enough, doesn't mean they have to be ignorant of it either...go buy some books (like Race and Class in White America), rent some movies (like Mississippi Burning), and visit the National Civil Rights Museum (located in Memphis, TN) if you need some more info. That huge civil upheaval was all about _insuring_ the equal rights and protections to African-Americans as _already_ guaranteed in certain Constitutional amendments (passed almost a century before). Not that we don't still struggle with these issues today, but at least things are better. Or course, the ERA _still_ hasn't been passed. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Anyway, I look at the civil rights reform as a hope that within my lifetime we'll be able to move past many of these issues and make everyone's lives closer to our national ideals. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                                    ****
                                    http://www.nyhr.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    It took courage for people to refuse to go to the back of the bus, and I still wonder at the incredible courage of those children walking into the schools with mobs outside hurling insults. When I see this film footage I am moved to tears.
                                    Of course they could have just "kept quiet"
                                    It takes courage to be who you are and to live the live you wish in the face of discrimination.
                                    I admire and respect all of you who are doing it.

                                    ps to Jair, shorts, flannel shirt and work boots...it's a very butch look! add the twill carhart vest and you are stylin'.
                                    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                                    A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.

                                    Comment


                                    • "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK..."...sorry I can't remember all the words, just saw it all on a shirt on vacation......it goes on to describe all the lovely clothing choices he makes. Michael Palin, my hero [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                      The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
                                      Ellipses users clique ...
                                      TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                                      Comment


                                      • it's monty python! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
                                        Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                                        Comment


                                        • Not Prada, but still [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


                                          LumberJack song -Monty Python
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                          I'm a lumberjack and I'm O.K.
                                          I sleep all night and I work all day
                                          I cut down trees, I eat my lunch,
                                          I go to the lavatory.
                                          On Wednesdays I go shopping
                                          And have buttered scones for tea.

                                          CHORUS
                                          He's a lumberjack and he's O.K.
                                          He sleeps all night
                                          And Works all day.

                                          I chop down trees, I skip and jump
                                          I like to press wild flowers
                                          I put on women's clothing
                                          And hang around in bars

                                          I cut down trees, I wear high heels
                                          Suspenders and a bra.
                                          I want to be a girlee
                                          Just like my dear papa.

                                          The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
                                          Ellipses users clique ...
                                          TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                                          Comment

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