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Hypothetical liability question

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  • Hypothetical liability question

    This has not happened, but as I was driving out of the barn today, I thought about it.....

    If barn (big commerical barn) is located near a big neighborhood and nonhorsey neighbors consider it part of their community..aka come down to see the horsies and sometimes they show up when no one is there..I found a family in the barn a couple weeks ago and everyone had gone home.


    Anyway, I got to thinking...we have horses on the property who do bite (mine do not, but who's to say they wouldn't accidentally bite a kid who was giving them a treat).....if godforbid, a child went in a stallion's stall, or got bit...who is liable...the barn owner? the owner? or both? If the horse is there for training, is the trainer liable?

    I'm not thrilled knowing that we have neighborhood folks meandoring around the barn while no one was is there....I think I'll be suggesting No Tresspassing signs...but this really got me thinking today.
    Last edited by dalpal; Apr. 19, 2009, 05:43 PM.

  • #2
    We have many signs posted, no tresspassing, private property, the liability signs etc. Because we are well off the road we don't get what you ahve but once in a while the neighbor kids will be caught hanging on the pasture fence and I tell them that they must stay off the fence and not to pet the horses since they might bite. I also tell them that if they would like to meet the horses some time they just need to call and I will give them a tour. Usually keeps them away! I don't know if stables fall under the "attractive nusince" that swimming pools are but the it is best to restrict visitors to supervised visits, period.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by copper1 View Post
      I don't know if stables fall under the "attractive nusince" that swimming pools are but the it is best to restrict visitors to supervised visits, period.
      They do!

      You need to put up a fence with a gate like, yesterday. Seriously...this is an accident waiting to happen.

      Children interacting (unsupervised) with stallions is just asking for a lawsuit. Not to mention the danger of having strange people feeding your horses god-knows-what.

      Comment


      • #4
        Depends on your state's equine limited liability law (ELLA). Many of them provide that a person who comes onto the property of an "equine activity sponsor" automatically becomes a "participant" for purposes of the statute.

        Does your barn owner have signs with your state's ELLA posted on them? If so, the text should say something to this effect.
        I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

        Comment


        • #5
          Those state liability signs posted all over help limit liability, ditto the "no trespassing" signs, but anyone can sue anywhere anytime, especially kids who enter without their parents.

          When I boarded at a commercial barn, I was more worried about the people who brought their kids in to "feed the horses" carrots and other things when the BO was not there and when there was no one around. Fortunately, my horses were paddocked behind the barn, and not out front or on the side of the barn. And my two were very careful around people especially around children. But I worried that someone might feed them something that was not good for them.
          Best to have a closed, locked gate, or the fake locked gate, and keep it shut when no one is at the barn. And post the hours that the barn is open for visitors, or post that there are to be no visitors without calling first.

          Your liability for injuries to someone who climbs over a fence or gate is not going to be any where near what your liability is when you have an open gate that children can walk thru.

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by copper1 View Post
            We have many signs posted, no tresspassing, private property, the liability signs etc. Because we are well off the road we don't get what you ahve but once in a while the neighbor kids will be caught hanging on the pasture fence and I tell them that they must stay off the fence and not to pet the horses since they might bite. I also tell them that if they would like to meet the horses some time they just need to call and I will give them a tour. Usually keeps them away! I don't know if stables fall under the "attractive nusince" that swimming pools are but the it is best to restrict visitors to supervised visits, period.
            Oh, I totally agree with you on all accounts. We have a particular horse there (not mine) who is very mouthy/bitey...and I just got to thinking, if some kid was bitten....what "could" happen. BO, Owner, and gosh, the horse is there for training, so could even the trainer be liable?

            I'm asking all of these questions, because I don't know if anyone else has ever thought about what could potentially happen if, godforbid, an unsupervised child was bitten, stepped on, etc on the property.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
              Those state liability signs posted all over help limit liability, ditto the "no trespassing" signs, but anyone can sue anywhere anytime, especially kids who enter without their parents.

              When I boarded at a commercial barn, I was more worried about the people who brought their kids in to "feed the horses" carrots and other things when the BO was not there and when there was no one around. Fortunately, my horses were paddocked behind the barn, and not out front or on the side of the barn. And my two were very careful around people especially around children. But I worried that someone might feed them something that was not good for them.
              Best to have a closed, locked gate, or the fake locked gate, and keep it shut when no one is at the barn. And post the hours that the barn is open for visitors, or post that there are to be no visitors without calling first.
              Mine are far away from the barn area in a paddock at night...BUT, the stallions are the ones who are in the barns in the PM with a few others.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by twobays View Post
                They do!

                You need to put up a fence with a gate like, yesterday. Seriously...this is an accident waiting to happen.

                Children interacting (unsupervised) with stallions is just asking for a lawsuit. Not to mention the danger of having strange people feeding your horses god-knows-what.
                Oh trust me, if it were my barn, I would have done all sorts of protective measures, but I'm just a boarder.

                Hoping to get some info to bring to the attention of others.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                  Depends on your state's equine limited liability law (ELLA). Many of them provide that a person who comes onto the property of an "equine activity sponsor" automatically becomes a "participant" for purposes of the statute.

                  Does your barn owner have signs with your state's ELLA posted on them? If so, the text should say something to this effect.
                  You know, that's a good question...but I sure haven't seen them visably posted anywhere...a question to ask.

                  However, I wonder if that would be enough protection from a wandering neighbor.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Liability Insurance

                    I have three horses on my own property, so I can’t really answer the question regarding boarding barns. However, in New York they are considered an Attractive Nuisance. I have a 1 million dollar liability umbrella policy along with my homeowners. This will hopefully cover me if some one decides to walk on to my property, uninvited, to pet my horses and gets hurt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The law varies widely, so much so that it is impossible to make a blanket statement about the question in the OP. Where are you located?
                      Proud Member: Bull-snap Haters Clique, Michigan Clique, and Appaloosa Clique!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        NC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dalpal View Post
                          NC
                          I take lessons in NC. The signs posted on my trainer's barn say that a person who enters the property becomes a "participant" for purposes of the statute.

                          BUT - the signs must be posted in very conspicuous places or the BO can't claim protection under the statute.
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dalpal View Post
                            . . . . who is liable...the barn owner? the owner? or both? If the horse is there for training, is the trainer liable? . . .
                            I am NOT a lawyer (disclaimer first) but I would think that ANY/ALL of the people you mention could be liable, including the HORSE owner. That is why it is smart for every horse owner to carry a liability policy directly for their horse in addition to any general liability policy (homeowner's policy) they may carry.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Evalee Hunter View Post
                              I am NOT a lawyer (disclaimer first) but I would think that ANY/ALL of the people you mention could be liable, including the HORSE owner. That is why it is smart for every horse owner to carry a liability policy directly for their horse in addition to any general liability policy (homeowner's policy) they may carry.

                              You are so right.....I hate to say this, I've owned horses for over 15 years now (always been a boarder) and this is the first time that this has ever crossed my mind as an OWNER. I always assumed that yeah, the BO would be in trouble...but in this lawsuit happy world, it wouldn't surprise me if a person could come after more than just the BO.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think everyone could potentially be liable. Which is very scary.

                                We have new development going up all around our farm too. So, we finally decided to fork over the bucks for an automatic entry gate. Our old manual gate was nice since our barn is far from the road anyway, but we usually just left it open (and anybody could open it themselves by hand).

                                With all the new people living in our area we were having more frequent "visitors" (ie: people letting their barefoot toddlers run around the barn to pet and feed the horses). This drives me crazy...and seriously makes me irate.

                                Anyway, the new auto gate is great. But people are still tenacious. I just recently watched as random people (strangers) drove up to the gate, got out, looked around, shoved on the gate a few times...then finally got back in their car and drove away. They were actually going to push our gate open if they could (which they couldn't, happily).

                                Hmmm, I think we need some no tresspassing signs now too...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Elmstead View Post
                                  Anyway, the new auto gate is great. But people are still tenacious. I just recently watched as random people (strangers) drove up to the gate, got out, looked around, shoved on the gate a few times...then finally got back in their car and drove away. They were actually going to push our gate open if they could (which they couldn't, happily).

                                  Hmmm, I think we need some no tresspassing signs now too...
                                  Ugh. And maybe a sign on the gate: 20,000 volts.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I agree with all the risk management suggestions, but I'd also be sure to have a high limit liability policy. Your insurer will get you the lawyer to defend against a claim. I'm not worried about losing the claim, but the cost of the legal fees to defend against it does concern me.
                                    Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                                    http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Our driveway, many years ago, was a thru road. hasn't been for over 20 some years and in fact part of it is now pasture and fenced. Mapquest still shows it as a road so we will get people coming down looking to get thru. We have talked to the township to see what can get it changed but they really don't know. There are stone pillars flanking the one lane asphalted drive. Private drive and no tresspassing signs very visible but folks still come down. (you would think they realized it wasn't a road since there are no potholes and it is narrow with no road markings!!!!) Last week, after more than enough tresspassers, we got more signs, like the normal state onesrivate drive, no tresspassing, no outlet, and as we were putting them up, someone turned in, saw us and gave us a disgusted look as they backed back out! The new gate will be here this week. :-)

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Post a sign on your horses' stalls and paddocks saying "please do not feed or pet the horses." Like my horses' paddocks, their stalls were at the far end of the barn away from the road, so it was less likely that anyone entering the barn would feed or touch them.
                                        Don't put anything on any sign indicating that the horses might be dangerous, that can be an admission in a lawsuit.
                                        You or your BO can buy the signs just about anywhere, Jeffersequine catalogue has them in ALA and you can have them within a few days if you order today. Just ask for the NC equine liability signs. Post one on the driveway, and one on the front of the barn, and others in ares where people walk to and from where the horses are kept.
                                        This will help some.

                                        Comment

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