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  • #21
    Why is it any harder to believe that horses learn to understand our language and to read our human emotions any more than it is to believe that if you never speak to a person, they they don't learn to use spoken language either?

    Rico is a classic example. When he does something bad, like the day he went after Trav and I got knocked down in the process, he took one look at me when I got off the ground, backed away, and went straight into his stall with his head down when I yelled "you, get in there!". Trav walked straight up to me without the least hesitation.

    They both knew who was responsible for me being on the ground.
    Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
    Witherun Farm
    http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

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    • #22
      Originally posted by FindersKeepers View Post
      I swear... I love all his personality, he's a real character... but really? Was he really participating in the conversation? Kinda scary... I have known one or two others in my lifetime that seemed to communicate on a similar level... but its certainly not the norm, and makes you wonder...
      My mare and I have been together for almost 10 years now, and time and time again she has shown me she understands far more than we give them credit for.

      They understand more than we think!

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      • #23
        I used to ride this 22 y/o OTTB who was a saint if you were a beginner, but if he knew you had any idea of what you were doing, he would pull every trick in the book. Snap his halter becuase he could, stand on your foot with enough pressure to hold it there but not enough to hurt you, etc. Occasionally he and his 18 y/o OTTB buddy would decide to be spunky and they would act up or get all huffy and puffy while they were being led in.

        Anytime he would start to act up or just act like a butthead in general, we would look at him and say firmly and loudly "Ti, you had better straighten up or I'm going to call Julie!" (You'd have to know Julie to get the full effect). And I swear, everytime we said that, his eyes got wide and he went on behaving like the gentleman he could be
        "People ask me 'will I remember them if I make it'. I ask them 'will you remember me if I don't?'"

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        • #24
          "you will find that yes they do have rudimentary "feelings" if you will. "

          Nonsense. You're trying desperately to put words in my mouth that I never said.

          I never said horses didn't have feelings. In fact, I think they have an extremely well developed ability to feel emotions. I said they cannot process a stream of words like a human being, and that they do not have the SAME feelings as human beings do.

          Every time anyone says 'you're anthropomorphosizing', they get accused by SOMEONE of being some sort of heartless puppy mill running equivalent of Michael Meyers who treats their horses like - horrors of horrors - LIVESTOCK, or 'tisk tisk'd' over that they just aren't as sensitive as some far more enlightened poster who is SO much more understanding, quiet in mind or whatever baloney you want to front.

          I've got news for you. Horses ARE livestock. And that word, 'livestock' is not a permission to treat them like crap, nor is it permission to treat ANY 'livestock' like crap. Quite the contrary. It's simply the type of animal they are, and that's all there is to that. Horses deserve to be understood as horses, and that is plenty wondrous and incredible, and takes a lifetime of study and thought. Pretending they're people or feel or think like people is a grotesque oversimplification and twisting of their nature, and is usually an effort to avoid really understanding them. Read Rilke, it's an eye opener. Being able to understand something as it is is far better than trying to make it into something you already know.

          Animals deserve to be treated with respect, with feeling, with sensitivity and with knowledge and kindness, and they don't have to be a damned thing like a human being to deserve that. They deserve that simply because they are God's creatures and a part of this earth, and that's all there is to it. Just like all living beings deserve that respect and appreciation of their differences and uniqueness.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
            I agree. Humans are animals. Those who aren't raised where the dogs and cats eat at the table like gasp, family members (and have better manners than a lot of guys I've known) don't have the relationship with their animals as do those who are raised with family members who happen to be species other than human. Don't we share 98% of our dna with chimps?
            No we don't. It is less than 95% according to Dr. Cothran from Texas A & M. What does that matter? A Guinea Pig can still catch diseases from humans that people think that they shouldn't. Does that now make Guinea Pigs a close relative? If anyone actually stopped to think about the THEORY of evolution then they would realize how many GAPING holes there are in it and how the concept of survival of the fittest actually chops the theory at the knees. Oh, and on Animal Planet, they proved that a pig is better at problem solving than a chimp. I think it odd that we think it is ok to eat such a very intelligent creature. I wonder what chimp tastes like? I believe they were a food group for the people in Africa. Not sure if that is still practiced though. No, it is no different than eating a pig. Save, the pig being more intelligent than the chimp. I wonder if they would learn sign language much faster if they had paw like hands?

            If you choose to think that you are an animal, then great. By all means. If you want to believe that a monkey is your ancestor, then I choose my ancestor to be a horse haha. Of course, I am just teasing, I don't believe that an animal is my ancestor as there is no proof. Rather there is proof to the contrary.

            As far as communication goes. It is believed that dogs can understand about 160 words. So, does a horse raised in captivity likely to pick up on words? Of course! Horses are very smart! From what it sounds like, this TB understood what "stall" meant, among other things. Smart horse!
            Owner and enthusiast of the very rare California Vaquero Horse breed; the breed whose ancestors helped the Spaniards of California establish the territory of California.

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              Good heavens, I was just sharing a story, not trying to start a trainwreck.

              I know they aren't humans, but I do think they can understand a littlemore than basic commends. Not all the time, and not every animal, but some are more special than others

              And as Forest Gump said, that's all I have to say about that
              Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Barbhorses View Post
                No we don't. It is less than 95% according to Dr. Cothran from Texas A & M. What does that matter? A Guinea Pig can still catch diseases from humans that people think that they shouldn't. Does that now make Guinea Pigs a close relative? If anyone actually stopped to think about the THEORY of evolution then they would realize how many GAPING holes there are in it and how the concept of survival of the fittest actually chops the theory at the knees.
                Oh, good! We just switched this from one of those dreary "do horses think/feel emotions/understand as humans do" threads to a "the theory of evolution is wrong" thread. That could make things more interesting. Not. Yawn.
                Looking for horse activity in the Twin Tiers? Follow my blog at http://thetwintiershorse.blogspot.com/

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by GilbertsCreeksideAcres View Post
                  Oh, good! We just switched this from one of those dreary "do horses think/feel emotions/understand as humans do" threads to a "the theory of evolution is wrong" thread. That could make things more interesting. Not. Yawn.

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                  • #29
                    Nooo I am not trying to twist your words, I was saying that because horses are more viewed as livestock there is a greater chance they are abused and it will be over looked as that is how many people see them...they are something to be owned and to do with as they wish. I don't believe that I said that their emotions are that of a human, even I know that is silly, but they do have emotions and feelings.

                    If you want a good book, try reading She Flies Without Wings, the connection between horses and woman and why we make better riders and the emotional side as well.

                    I am not sure why you got your panties in a twist, but lets untwist them and put your big girl panties on shall we? I don't think that I attacked you or said anything that you have to become nasty about, I was simply expressing MY own point of view is all.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Camstock View Post
                      Horses have emotions and can communicate very clearly. Lots of people are not intuitive enough or still enough in themselves to perceive them. Those sorts of people are very fond of suggesting that those of us who can read or hear them are anthropomorphizing. It is a classic case of sour grapes. ;-)
                      Word.
                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Belplosh View Post
                        Nooo I am not trying to twist your words, I was saying that because horses are more viewed as livestock there is a greater chance they are abused and it will be over looked as that is how many people see them...they are something to be owned and to do with as they wish. I don't believe that I said that their emotions are that of a human, even I know that is silly, but they do have emotions and feelings.

                        If you want a good book, try reading She Flies Without Wings, the connection between horses and woman and why we make better riders and the emotional side as well.

                        I am not sure why you got your panties in a twist, but lets untwist them and put your big girl panties on shall we? I don't think that I attacked you or said anything that you have to become nasty about, I was simply expressing MY own point of view is all.
                        I resent the implications that, because some animal is "livestock", they are automatically more prone to be abused.

                        People that have abusive traits abuse everything they want to abuse, be it any kind of animal, livestock or not, people or even things.

                        Lets remember not to confuse abuse, that no one wants to see, with proper use, debatable as that use may seem.

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                        • #32
                          Thank you, slc, for illustrating my point. Lack of stillness much? No species (human or equine) could possibly find space to communicate with that cacophony going on. In light of this condition, your conclusions make perfect sense, for your way of being.

                          Lots of people have a quieter, more receptive way of being.
                          http://www.camstock.net/

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                          • #33
                            I'm a molecular geneticist and as scientifically grounded as I am, i definitely believe that horses understand and feel more than we give them credit for. All of my horses know their names (and their nicknames), and when I call one, only that one will come or respond. But if I have all of them out on the crossties and say something like "Hi puppa!" (which is a nickname I use for all of them), they'll all turn and look at me. My pony is highly attached and will go off his feed if I'm not around for any length of time (I am not the person who feeds him or even provides his primary care. I don't come every day and he and I no longer have a routine). He's greetings are also proportionate to how long I have been away. If I saw him the day before, he'll nicker softly and be very relaxed and confident when greeting me. The longer it's been, the louder and more persistent he is when I do show up. He'll scream at me from down the isle and continue to nicker for a few minutes after I approach him. He'll be very demanding and in-your-face for a few minutes and then settle down.

                            My older greenie literally gets excited when I show up. If a horse could jump up and down and clap his hooves together, that's what he'd do. He'll be hanging out in his stall and I'll walk in and he'll lean against his stall gate trying to get to me. On the rare occasion that he's dozing when I show up, I can approach his stall and call his name and his eyes will get all big and excited and he'll immediately come for snuggles. His favorite thing to do is tuck his nose under my arm and lick me. He doesn't push or beg for treats or get the least bit mouthy. His whole body relaxes when I'm around and he's just so content to be touched and "held" (he'll rest his head in my arms, face buried against my chest, and go to sleep) and talked to. I can pull into the barn and if he's on the crossties waiting for me, I've been told he'll strain against them and cock his head towards the driveway. He'll stay like that until I walk in. Again, I don't feed him, I don't have any part in his daily routine except riding at very random hours and not on a consistent schedule.

                            My younger greenie came to me with zero personality and no interest in humans. He now insists upon wuffling my hair every time he sees me, he'll rest his chin on my shoulder and take naps, he gets incredibly excited to see me when I've been away for any period of time, he'll watch me wherever I go and his sour faces are non-existent when I am handling him. He's still very disinterested in most other people, but he definitely makes me the center of attention when I'm around.

                            Sometimes I groom and tack, sometimes I don't. My routine with them when I am the one grooming/tacking/riding/untacking is VERY different from their routine with the barn staff. Most of my time spent out of the saddle is just petting them and talking to them and just generally bonding with them. All of my horses are extremely cuddly and friendly, but only Penuche is like this with others...Carson and LB are only like this with me. They couldn't care less about other people. They are very polite and respectful with everyone, but they are only seriously affectionate with me.

                            The pony is about as arrogant as they come...everyone in the barn refers to him as "His Lordship" and not because that's some name I gave him. He just gives off this air of extreme superiority and confidence. In his opinion he's the "Mother Mucking Princess" (and yes, I do mean Princess...we don't call him "His Royal Highness Princess Sparkle Pants" for nothing!) and if he could, he'd tell you so in no uncertain terms.

                            Penuche is the Cuddlebug and definitely has the "need to please" personality of the group. I swear, if this horse had the words to ask "Did I do it right this time? Did I? Did I? Did I?" That's what you'd hear very second of every ride. You can tell that he beats himself up when he makes a mistake and he's constantly looking for reassurance.

                            Carson is Mr. Work Ethic. He's a Type-A to the core and will pick up almost anything in less than 3 tries. He gets very, very angry when he messes up (and will display his anger by jumping harder, moving bigger, or generally putting a thousand times more effort into it than before). He's very forgiving to you when HE makes the mistake, but if you make the same mistake more than a few times in a row, he'll let you know about it.

                            Now whether or not you want to call that "personality" or "social interaction" is up to your discretion, but I am very confident that horses are a good degree more in tune and intelligent than we often give them credit for.
                            Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Belplosh View Post
                              I was saying that because horses are more viewed as livestock there is a greater chance they are abused and it will be over looked as that is how many people see them...they are something to be owned and to do with as they wish.
                              I don't think "livestock" is a dirty word. I also don't think they are seen purely as property, or that they stand a greater chance of being abused.

                              Considering that millions of "pets" are dumped at shelters each year, and our courts are full of neglect and abuse cases of "pets".

                              I'd say livestock fare pretty well in comparison. It's a poor farmer that does not tend his herd and see to their welfare before his own.

                              Having spent a great deal of time handling and being around "livestock" and farmers, I can promise you that any farmer or rancher is very well aware of the animals emotional state. The farmer or rancher is not going to bond with a herd of 500 steers - but that doesn't mean he thinks the animals are walking sacks of meat or simply property that he can use or misuse.

                              The difference is that they don't anthropomorphize the animal. They treat the animal the way a cow wants to be treated. Like a cow. Not like a fur child. Same with any other species.

                              Your barn owner is not going to form the same bond you do with your horse. It doesn't mean the BO is incapable of understanding that the bond exists.

                              All animals are capable of bonding with humans to some extent. Even if they're not so pretty or cute as the horse. They also have rich lives. Farmers and ranchers understand that even if they cannot articulate it. The horse is really no different than any other animal. And like all animals - they have us figured out pretty well, and are more in tune with their surroundings than humans are.
                              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                              -Rudyard Kipling

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                              • #35
                                Well said, JSwan!

                                "fur child" < insert gagging icon here
                                *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
                                Steppin' Out 1988-2004
                                Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
                                Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                                  I don't think "livestock" is a dirty word.

                                  The farmer or rancher is not going to bond with a herd of 500 steers - but that doesn't mean he thinks the animals are walking sacks of meat or simply property that he can use or misuse.
                                  JSwan, I know you didn't mean it to be funny, but that phrase made me laugh out loud!

                                  For all of you who think animals are somehow more "noble" than humanity, watch them interact with each other. They do some pretty nasty crap to each other, all the way up to killing their own.

                                  Oh, and for the person who believes those of us who weren't raised to think of our pets as fur siblings are somehow emotionally stunted and unable to love and relate to them, you're in desperate need of therapy.

                                  I'd say your childhood was warped if you were allowed to let the animals eat at the dinner table off the plates, as if they were human. Total anthropormorphism, and you need to learn to associate with reality a little more. M'kay?
                                  Homeopathy claims water can cure you since it once held medicine. That's like saying you can get sustenance from an empty plate because it once held food.

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                                  • #37
                                    Well, I'm with the OP.

                                    I think that there is a spectrum of intelligence with horses, just as with people, and I also believe that the more you interact the more you encourage the individual responses.

                                    Ted knows the grass is up. He's no longer is his pasture as the automatic waterer died as a consequence of the long freeze. The paddock just doesn't cut it. First thing he does, when I let him from the paddock to the indoor, is go right over to the gate and try and open it. Of course, it's latched, and he comes over to me and nudges me with his muzzle. Yes, I know what he wants. And sometimes he has to wait. But he's making his intentions very clear. All I have to do, when I'm done cleaning tack after we work, is ask if he's ready - he'll come right over to get his halter on, and out we go. He will occasionally remind me if I am taking too long.

                                    He knows what he wants, and he knows how to get me to do what he wants. Pretty smart, I'd say! (or is it that I am so easily trained...?)

                                    This is just one small thing. But if he itches, he will get my attention and motion to the spot - if he can reach, he'll touch it, if he can't he'll move his hind leg up and motion with his muzzle. We have evolved (I think) a fairly sophisticated form of communication.

                                    edited to add, I'm with you, Punkie! the geek in me observes. And I have observed my horse, several times, trying to reason something out. I don't know that they all have this ability, I am not sure how much of it is the um, mentorship? if you will, but they are clearly capable of at least limited deductive reasoning (prefontal cortex or no). My research program focuses on the development and function of neural circuitry, and we do a lot of behavioral analyses, so animal behavior is something I think about a great deal of the time.
                                    Last edited by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"; Apr. 8, 2009, 05:04 PM.
                                    www.specialhorses.org
                                    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho" View Post
                                      I also beieve that the more you interact the more you encourage the individual responses.
                                      Absolutely--I've observed this when I went from two dogs to one dog (when my old dog died) and the one that was left all of a sudden really started to listen and respond to me, because she was getting all my attention.

                                      We've been selectively breeding horses and dogs for millenia to be domesticated animals--to obey us and to respond to us. It's no wonder that they've also figured out how to get what they want from us.

                                      Even the wilder animals learn to communicate with us to some extent, like the chickadees that hang out on the back porch and look in the window when I haven't filled their feeder.

                                      It doesn't mean that they still aren't a separate species from us.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Geek, Conny and I were so attuned to each other, it was as if we could read each other's minds. Nope.

                                        It was just that after long association, I could read his body language, knew what a particular sound, look, or gesture meant, and he could do the same with me.

                                        To a lesser extent, I have that same interaction with my other horses, although I haven't been around them as long, so it's not as honed as it was with Conny.

                                        It's not magic, but it's pretty darned cool.

                                        What I object to is people who think if we treat an animal like an animal, then we can't possibly be any good at communicating with them. I think just the opposite is true.

                                        If we don't learn to speak their language, then we're just placing human emotions and attitudes on them without really knowing what they're all about. When that happens, we do them a grave disservice.

                                        Animals are complete just being themselves. We don't need to burden them with silly anthropormorphisms.
                                        Homeopathy claims water can cure you since it once held medicine. That's like saying you can get sustenance from an empty plate because it once held food.

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                                        • #40
                                          ah2, I agree - when you are paying attention, it's amazing what you observe. Goodness knows they're paying attention to what you do. I know when I talk, he doesn't know what I am saying (except for specific words, by association). But he can tell by my tone, my body movements, so many things.

                                          I have also noticed - and he only ever does this when I am grooming him/tacking him up, and someone else is there - I think he knows which is my blind side and alerts me that "there is someone there." (Yes, I know, I invited them, usually, but thanks.)

                                          On this note: One day I was grooming him and yakking on about how I was going out of town, and reminded him that I wouldn't see him Wednesday or Thursday, but that if my flight wasn't delayed, maybe Friday. And a fellow boarder became annoyed and demanded to know if he could really understand me. And I replied, "Well, I'm sure he can tell by the sound of my voice that everything is okay. And if he does know the days of the week, then he knows he's probably not going to see me till Saturday."
                                          www.specialhorses.org
                                          a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

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