Horses being poached in FL!!

[shade]

And how stupid of the people buying this meat...would you want to eat beef that was slaughtered on the side of the road? I sure wouldn't..yuck..but it sure serves them right if they get sick from it.

[smilton]

I own a livestock market in Virginia (I inherited. I lease it out for cattle sales). Two years ago I was contacted indirectly by a buyer out of Florida. I was told he was buying ponies for parties and petting zoos. Fortunately before filling his order I found out he was the supplier for the local international community. Ponies (500-800lbs) were great to fill a single family freezer. He also bought poultry, goats and exotics to fill orders. He shipped them from as far as Ohio down to Florida. He was cuban and had a small slaughter house he ran illegally in his back yard.
I know this doesn't sound real but he also owned race horses on the track and bred fighting pitbulls.
I got to meet him in person and I was a 5-10 20-somthing blonde. I think he was trying to impress me by telling me more about himself.
I think I still have his email address and phone number somewhere in the files.

This type of operation is normal in most south american countries. I know the farmers market I visited was an eye opener for me.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=smilton;3962589

This type of operation is normal in most south american countries. I know the farmers market I visited was an eye opener for me.[/QUOTE]


Yeah - I think it may be a cultural thing. But the theft of horses - that's illegal everywhere.

I don't have a problem with on-site processing -but even a small family farm has heaps of regulatory and insurance requirements. I'd like to be clear that we're distinguishing that sort of processing from what this type of operation is.... which is illegal and inhumane, and unsanitary whether or not the animals are stolen.

A while back there was a newspaper article about some folks on the track that butchered their TB when it lost. With a chainsaw. Officials tracked the pools of blood until it led them to the carcass.

This has nothing to do with horse slaughter and everything to do with horrific acts of animal cruelty that none of us should tolerate. My sympathies to the owners of these horses.

[greysandbays]

And how stupid of the people buying this meat...would you want to eat beef that was slaughtered on the side of the road? I sure wouldn't..yuck..but it sure serves them right if they get sick from it.

Well, our ancestors managed such things just fine. There's only a few simple rules you need to follow when "field dressing" animals to minimize the danger of getting "sick from it".

[county]

Its not unusual at all for people to buy meat that slaughtered outside a slaughter plant I've sold 100's of cattle and hogs that way.

SevenDogs as usual your reading comprehension needs work.

[SevenDogs]

SevenDogs as usual your reading comprehension needs work.

Hmmmmm... didn't realize you were the only purveyor of sarcasm on this board......

[bayou_bengal]

Does anyone know if any arrests have been made?

I want to know about the specific case of horse theft and illegal butchering that started this thread.

Does anyone know if the police have leads? Are the police even bothering to fully investigate?? If so, do they expect to catch the SOBs?

This is a story that should chill every horse owner to the bone -- no pun intended. Horse theft for whatever ends -- is still horse theft and your horse is gone.

Of course horse theft and immediate near site butchering can only have a horrific outcome for the horse and owner -- unlike regular theft, where you might eventually track your horse down at its new owner's -- unless, of course, it is stolen and sold to a kill buyer who ships it out of country to a slaughterhouse in Canada or mexico.

Personally I oppose the operation of ALL slaughterhouses ANYWHERE in the western hemisphere because as long as they operate -- everyone's horses are in danger of being stolen and sold for slaughter, but that's another topic.

I just want to know if anyone has been caught for the theft and butchering of Geronimo -- yes, the butchered horse had a name, he was loved by owners who were robbed of his companionship by lowdown dirty criminals.

I, for one, am in favor of bringing back hanging as punishment for horse and livestock theives. Notice I made a distinction between horses and livestock.

[county]

When you say close all slaughter houses do you mean all horse slaughter or all livestock slaughter houses since all species do get stolen and sold to them?

[smm20]

I disagree. This thread is about slaughter, but in a round-about way. Yes, the original news story is about the illegal theft and butchery of privately owned horses. Everyone agrees that this is very wrong. BUT, this thread turned into an argument about slaughter because if slaughter and/or the sale of horse meat for consumption were legal, there would be no illegal butchery. No one would pay $20/lb for illegally-obtained horse meat on the black market if they could walk into their local butcher and purchase or special-order it for $4/lb. Make the sale of horse meat legal, and eliminate the illegal theft and butchery of people's pets. There doesn't even have to be slaughter in the US - simply allow it to be imported from Canada. Problem solved.

I think that the comparison with Prohibition is a good one. My grandfather made a lot of money as a 10 year-old rowing a boat back and forth across the Detroit River into Canada.

[bayou_bengal]

I was talking about horse slaughterhouses because horses in the US are considered companion animals. If someone steals your livestock, and it is slaughtered, I'm guessing that if you can prove it, you can try to recover the value of the stolen, slaughtered livestock by filing a civil suit against the rustler. You do not have an emotional bond to animals you were expecting to SELL to slaughter yourself, unlike a horse owner's bond with his/her horse.

A pet or companion animal is different because as an individual, its companionship is irrepaceable to its owner -- like that of a dog or a cat.

If someone has made a pet out of a livestock animal that is stolen and then slaughtered, then I think they ought to be able to sue the rustler not only to recover the actual slaughter value, but they ought to recover damages for emotional distress, and pain and suffering as well.

I have horses. I do not like having to worry that some lowlife scum might be encouraged to steal one because they can "destroy the evidence" and make a quick buck by selling the horse to slaughter.

Close all horse slaughterhouses, and de facto, you make horse theft less attractive. If there is no easy way to make money AND destroy the evidence, you take away a lot of the motive.

Fact is that when horse slaughter in California was outlawed, horse theft went down dramatically. Notice, incidences went down, but did not cease totally. Why? IMHO it's because horse slaughterhouses continue to operate in Canada and Mexico-- not too far from CA.

[bayou_bengal]

smm20-- I beg to differ-- MAKING the sale of horse meat legal, or allowing slaughter in the US would just increase thefts of pet horses for sale to slaughter -- which is what was happening, but was hard to prove because the "evidence" had often disappeared as packaged meat by the time the horse was traced to the slaughterhouses.

Do some research, and you will find many instances of stolen horses being traced to slaughter and identified only when their grieving owners were shown pictures of of their horses' hides with the identifiable brands on them.

Just remember that the motto is "Stable to table in seven days." Often it takes a horse owner several days just to get the police to take the complaint seriously unless we are talking about a high dollar horse.

There was one heartbreaking story in 2005-- not that long ago where a teenager's registered horse was stolen somewhere up north -- and identified by its hide hanging in a Canadian slaughterhouse -- it had apparently been slaughtered within four or five days of the theft.

If horse slaughter is made legal, just think what an incentive this would be to the kinds of people who would steal a horse? They only have to invest their time to make an almost 100% profit in the sale of the stolen horses. Why, they don't even have to own a trailer, they can borrow and rent one.

[cloudyandcallie]

There are abattoirs all around, and I imagine that a lot of horses go there along with the cows and hogs.
Stop the breeding and stop the slaughtering.

Our society disposes of dogs and cats and horse like garbage.

[greysandbays]

I was talking about horse slaughterhouses because horses in the US are considered companion animals. If someone steals your livestock, and it is slaughtered, I'm guessing that if you can prove it, you can try to recover the value of the stolen, slaughtered livestock by filing a civil suit against the rustler. You do not have an emotional bond to animals you were expecting to SELL to slaughter yourself, unlike a horse owner's bond with his/her horse.

Honey, this "emotional bond" you speak of that elevates the horse nearly to the level of diety is not universal. A great many horse owners are not terribly "emotionally bonded" to their horses. And for someone like you to insist that they MUST is selfish in the extreme.

Close all horse slaughterhouses, and de facto, you make horse theft less attractive. If there is no easy way to make money AND destroy the evidence, you take away a lot of the motive.

I guess the little part about stolen horses being "slaughtered along side the road" escaped your notice? As we learned with prohibition, if people want something, many of them are not going to let a little thing like a stupid law stand in their way.

Fact is that when horse slaughter in California was outlawed, horse theft went down dramatically. Notice, incidences went down, but did not cease totally. Why? IMHO it's because horse slaughterhouses continue to operate in Canada and Mexico-- not too far from CA.

Beware of the fool's trap of assuming corrolation equals causation. For all you know, there could be under-the-table slaughter operations like the one in Florida going on in California as well.

If there is any market at all for horses, horses will be stolen. There was an article on horse theft in Practical Horseman (I think) a good number of years ago (probably before you were even born) that supposedly had info straight from the horse theif's mouth -- and this particular thief was exploiting the riding horse market. He's find somebody looking for a certain type of horse, then go "hunting". And somebody would be missing a horse one morning.

[bayou_bengal]

Here is the address of story about 13 yo girl's horse and more

I don't know how to make the address below into a hot link. But FYI-- here is the story about pet horse stolen and sold in Canada to a slaughterhouse, which apprently just assumed -- as they usually do -- theat the horse was NOT stolen.

http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=428

And all of the horses bought and sold for slaughter, or stolen and sold for slaughter were once "privately owned." Just as Geronimo was privately owned but stolen. The only difference is just that he was "illegally" butchered by the side of the road instead of "legally slaughtered" in a Mexican or Canadian slaughterhouse.

But then again, if a horse is stolen from its owners, I don't see how it can be considered "legally slaughtered." I think the slaughterhouses should have more of a burden to insure that they are NOT buying stolen horses -- like the horse stolen from the young girl in New York state.

I have actually considered freeze branding my horses with a registered brand that says -- "Never to be sold for slaughter- if this horse is at your slaughter house, then it was stolen." But it is a shame that I would have to mar my horses with such a disclamer in an effort to keep them safer.

[bayou_bengal]

I'm not your "honey" greysandbays and don't you dare try to patronize me with that form of address-- and your the snarky remark, "I guess the little part about stolen horses being "slaughtered along side the road" escaped your notice? As we learned with prohibition, if people want something, many of them are not going to let a little thing like a stupid law stand in their way. " was uncalled for, too.

If you had bothered to read my first post it was ALL ABOUT trying to find out more about Geronimo, the horse that WAS found butchered on the side of the road in FL.

But really horse theft for the purpose of "legal slaughter" or "illegal butchering" is still way different in its outcome, than theft for re-sale, or theft just to have a horse to keep and ride. In the latter two cases, there is still the hope that the horse will be recovered-- just access the netposse site to read recovery stories.

And how dare you assume that the emotional bond I was talking about can be described as you did here, and I quote:

"Honey, this "emotional bond" you speak of that elevates the horse nearly to the level of diety is not universal. A great many horse owners are not terribly "emotionally bonded" to their horses. And for someone like you to insist that they MUST is selfish in the extreme."

I don't know about you, but I don't worship my horses as gods. But that said, I am emotionally bonded to mine. I guess I should have distinguished between "horse owners" and "horse lovers" in my post, though I don't think of these two classes as being necessarily exclusive, sweetie!

[greysandbays]

I'm not your "honey" greysandbays and don't you dare try to patronize me with that form of address-- and your the snarky remark, "I guess the little part about stolen horses being "slaughtered along side the road" escaped your notice? As we learned with prohibition, if people want something, many of them are not going to let a little thing like a stupid law stand in their way. " was uncalled for, too.

Well, HONEY, that's how we say "Well bless your heart" in these parts.

If you had bothered to read my first post it was ALL ABOUT trying to find out more about Geronimo, the horse that WAS found butchered on the side of the road in FL.

An apparently you are convinced that illegal slaughter everywhere would have saved his life.

But really horse theft for the purpose of "legal slaughter" or "illegal butchering" is still way different in its outcome, than theft for re-sale, or theft just to have a horse to keep and ride. In the latter two cases, there is still the hope that the horse will be recovered-- just access the netposse site to read recovery stories.

Yeah, I especially like the "recovery stories" that, after everybody gets in an uproar about the STOLEN HORSE, the horse is reported found dead in its own pasture on account of something DUMB the owner did. As an FYI, not all that many truly stolen but not slaughtered horses are ever recovered. Unless horse thieves are unbelievably stupid, I would think it would be easier to make live horses disappear than slaughtered horses.

[b]And how dare you assume that the emotional bond I was talking about can be described as you did here, and I quote:

"Honey, this "emotional bond" you speak of that elevates the horse nearly to the level of diety is not universal. A great many horse owners are not terribly "emotionally bonded" to their horses. And for someone like you to insist that they MUST is selfish in the extreme."

I don't know about you, but I don't worship my horses as gods. But that said, I am emotionally bonded to mine. I guess I should have distinguished between "horse owners" and "horse lovers" in my post, though I don't think of these two classes as being necessarily exclusive, sweetie!

So you did NOT pontificate about how extra-speshul horses were and that they were NOT TO BE EATEN??? Dearie, it's perfectly possible to "love" and be "emotionally bonded" to one's own horses without being a self-righteous tyrant who wishes to control what other people do with THEIR horses -- especially while trotting out the line of reasoning that OMG, OMG, somebody might possibly (no matter how remote that possiblity) steal my horsie and send it to slaughter, so therefore I should have the right to make EVERYBODY not slaughter because that will keep my horsie safe. Seems a lot like religious zealotry to me.

[birdsong]

This thread is about the theft and killing of privately owned horses. It is not about the business of slaughter plants. So, back to the OP...

Have their been any leads at all? Any suspects? Was there easy access to the horses? Someone mentioned loose horses in the everglades. Guess those loose horses would require too much "work" for the killers to hunt down and mutilate.

What a horrifying story. Poor horses, poor owners.

THANK YOU!! How easily it turned into a slaughter thread!! There was a poster who told of her horse Geronimo being found tied to a tree and slaughtered. I'll see if I can cross post it.

How horrifying!

Here you go.http://www.spca-sofla.org/slaughter/slaughter.htm

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/communit...,5530612.story

[county]

Does anyone actually beleive when cattle or other species of livestock are stolen and slaughtered the owner some how is less upset and has less feelings of loss then when a horse is? Some of you people are just down right sad and insulting, you really haven't got a clue do you? Close down all slaughter plants so no stolen animal is slaughtered? Ya I'm sure the 300,000,000 people in this country alone are going to stop eating meat.

[bayou_bengal]

Thank you birdsong. I will follow these to read more. I really wanted to know what was being done to try to catch the thief or thieves- probably more than one person was needed to carry out this crime.

baysandgrays-- Grow up, learn to spell, and go to Fugly if you want to be snarky.

And this is America-- oh, probably you would spell it Amerika, and I have as much right to have an opinion and express it as you do.

AND I'm not the Pope, so I can't really "pontificate" in the original sense of the word.

You certainly took lots of liberties with my intended meanings and jumped to lots of conclusions from reading my posts, judging from your last one. I NEVER said that closing all of the slaughterhouse WOULD have saved Geronimo.

I was merely pointing out that REMOVING motives for the crime of horse theft could and probably would reduce it.

And I won't even respond to your bashing of netposse.

All I can say, is baysandgrays, you must be one unhappy person, bless your heart.

[bayou_bengal]

Country -- My late husband and I did raise beef cattle. We did actually have one of our calves killed, and butchered right in one of our pastures - a pretty little white Brahmah cross bull -- that was 26 years ago, and I still remember what color he was. Our feelings at the time-- Outrage, anger, fury, sympathy for the mother cow all bagged up and licking the head of her butchered calf, a sense of being "violated" and a desire for justice.

But I didn't feel any of the sorrow, pain, grief and sense of loss that I felt when we found Miss Mary, one of our horses shot, and killed in her pasture-- not butchered though-- probably by someone illegally "shining for deer" at night. She was a beautiful copper bay TWH with a crescent moon "star" and a snip on her upper lip. Yes, I can close my eyes and still "picture" her clearly. She was killed the year before the calf. In her case, I wanted not only justice, but vengence because to us our horses are members of the family.

The man who probably killed our calf was caught a month or so later in the act of butchering a calf he had killed on my husband's cousin's place. It was a registered Holstein heifer. He was convicted and got time in Angola because of the value of that particular heifer. He didn't admit to killing our calf or several others around the parish, but we didn't lose any more to "pasture butchers." after he was arrested.

AND I didn't say that ALL slaughterhouses should be closed -- just horse slaughterhouses. In the US, horses are considered by most people to be companion animals like dogs and cats.

Let the countries where horses are considered food animals grow their own horses for slaughter. - just like the Asian countries where dog and cat meat is eaten raise their own cats and dogs, they don't import American pets to slaughter.