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Is this legal?

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  • Is this legal?

    Almost every year the volunteer mounted patrol near me holds an organized trail ride that's 3 days. I've gone several times because its always a safe ride to take greenies and horses that have been off most of the winter on. Well I got the entry forms in the mail (and was thinking hey this would be a perfect first group ride for DH and his new horse) but then I opened them. I was really surprised to see that they required you to have health insurance and that you had to give policy number etc. Needless to say I am not going because I am NOT going to give this out to people that don't need it. And somehow, I'm not really sure if its legal for them to require this?
    Any thoughts?
    "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

  • #2
    I don't know about the legalities, but I know things like the Avon 3-Day Walk for Breast Cancer also requires their participants to have health insurance. My surgeon also required that I have insurance when I had my tummy tuck and chin implant in case of complications.

    I don't have insurance, but on the occasions where I have needed it, I have purchased a short term policy from Medica for a very low price. That's something you may consider if you want to do this ride.
    "Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." ~Jimmy Buffett

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by Curb Appeal View Post
      I don't know about the legalities, but I know things like the Avon 3-Day Walk for Breast Cancer also requires their participants to have health insurance. My surgeon also required that I have insurance when I had my tummy tuck and chin implant in case of complications.

      I don't have insurance, but on the occasions where I have needed it, I have purchased a short term policy from Medica for a very low price. That's something you may consider if you want to do this ride.
      I can understand a surgeon requiring you to have it, but the others... nah- you already have to sign your life away to ride in something organized. And I do have health insurance as does my husband. However, I will not be riding in it if they require that informantion (which in turn means they will not be getting my monetary support)- I feel it is a huge violation of privacy.
      "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

      Comment


      • #4
        Unless the policy number is your SSN, don't really see how it is an invasion of privacy. Perhaps you could give them the name of the company and write "number available if needed" where they ask for it. Let them know that you are uncomfortable giving them the #, but that you will have your husband's card and he will have yours in case of emergency.
        "Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." ~Jimmy Buffett

        Comment


        • #5
          I second writing "number needed if necessary". I do that on a lot of forms, and I've had very, very few complain.

          With the rise in identify theft, I don't give out any more information than necessary.

          I would have to agree about not doing the ride if they insist on the number.
          Unashamed Member of the Dressage Arab Clique
          CRAYOLA POSSE= Thistle

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't know about "legal", but since it's a private organization, and it's their ride, I'm guessing they can ask for anything they like.

            Personally, I agree with you. Only people who need to know, get any kind of sensitive information from me, and these folks don't need to know. I like Blkarab & Curb Appeal's approach to state that you do have insurance, but that the number will be supplied only if necessary.

            Is this the first time they've required this? Interesting, if so. Maybe someone got suit happy with them in the past?
            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
            A life lived by example, done too soon.
            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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            • #7
              Ride organizers, just like show management, can and have been sued frequently for accidents at events they manage or sponser.

              Sign of the times and you cannot blame them if their own event insurance underwriter is now requiring this information-and I'm sure that is who thought up this one, their insurance. Kind of doubt it's a phishing scam for personal info.

              Maybe give your policy name but add "#on request"? I have never been asked for a number anywhere but have been asked if I had any and with whom once or twice.
              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not only that, but having had a horseback riding accident I can tell you that the ambulance driver will ask who your insurance is and try to take you to a "covered" facility if the worst happens. Also, the facility will want your ins. number (which legally should NOT be your social security number). So, it's good info for them to have in case they can't reach your family.

                This info is required on permission slips for my kids all the time, for just this reason.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What if you aren't conscious to tell the ambulance driver what kind of insurance you have?

                  I dunno, I think this is actually pretty prudent on the part of the ride--and it's probably required by their insurance company. Riding is a potentially dangerous activity: people get hurt. Maybe it's because I'm allergic to a whole host of antibiotics and painkillers, but I'd like the people in charge to know that before I get stuck with something that might kill me.

                  Whenever I hunted or trail-rode, I went out with the USEA armband/medical form and a copy of my insurance card stuck inside. My horse also had a little pouch attached to his breastplate with a laminated card that explained who he was, where he lived, and who to call.
                  Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ambrey View Post
                    Not only that, but having had a horseback riding accident I can tell you that the ambulance driver will ask who your insurance is and try to take you to a "covered" facility if the worst happens.
                    Depends on the ambulance service. My SO is not allowed to ask if patients have insurance, as that is an invitation to lawsuits (patients claiming they were given substandard care because of lack of insurance). They ask the patient if they have a preferred hospital, but have the authority to override the patient's choice if they feel conditions warrant it.

                    ETA: Sing Mia Song, if you're not conscious, odds are they're going to take you to the closest high-level trauma center.
                    Last edited by Dad Said Not To; Mar. 28, 2009, 01:10 PM. Reason: added information

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I find it a great relief. I do not do enough volunteer work and do not participate in enough charity events. I do not have health insurance. So if they require health insurance for me to give them my money or give them my free labor, I am off the hook guilt free.

                      I am not sure if it is legal, but its such a good question I might look it up. When I go to the hospital for minor tests there is some privacy and confidentiality federal form I must have explained to me and then sign. So I think there is a law, I am just not sure who it applies to. And no, nobody ever gave me the required brochure or explained to me what I was signing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        HIPAA laws don't cover your insurance/policy number. They specifically passed a law requiring policy numbers to be separate from the SS number.

                        The law, though, is such that someone who has your name and policy number should not be able to easily get information on your medical status.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm not sure of the legality of it, but unless they have a registered provider who does work for the organization, I'm not sure how they'd actually be able to verify that you have insurance and didn't make something up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sure it's legal. A private organization can ask you any damfool question they like.

                            I've never heard of an organized ride asking for your policy number before, but I guess I can see why their insurance carrier might require it.

                            I can't think of any harm giving them the number could do - what am I missing?
                            I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                            • #15
                              I was not aware that they could no longer use an SSN as an ID#. I need to have DH ask about that, as his card has his SSN with a couple extra numbers as is ID. Time to order a new one!
                              "Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." ~Jimmy Buffett

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yes it's legal.

                                It's a priviledge to ride with them, not a right. And with our litigious society, they don't want to be sued if they can avoid it. See the toddler kicked thread for litigious people.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  You know what, I might have gotten that wrong- I'm not positive it's illegal. I do know most insurance companies are no longer using them, and that most will give you new numbers if you request them- due to the risk of identity theft.

                                  I had it in my mind that it was a law, but it might have been a proposed law that never went through. Still worth calling your insurance and requesting a number unrelated to your SSN.

                                  eta: I looked it up, and it's a California law, not a federal law like HIPAA.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post

                                    It's a priviledge to ride with them, not a right. .
                                    LOL- Not really. It's a park that I can ride at all the time for free with a bunch of people that I ride with all the time for free. I don't see how me donating to them is a privledge. I can find another ride that's not so damn nosey to take DH and new horse.
                                    "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It does make sense and it's really not personal. The insurance company is basically trying to protect themselves from other insurance companies or individuals who might come after them.

                                      If you fall off and rack up $100K in medical bills (a Medevac + ER visit + couple days in the ICU will get you there in a hurry) and have no insurance you pretty much HAVE to sue someone or go bankrupt. And a lot of people will justify suing by telling themselves that "the insurance company will pay it, it won't come from the Mounted Patrol at all".

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post
                                        LOL- Not really. It's a park that I can ride at all the time for free with a bunch of people that I ride with all the time for free. I don't see how me donating to them is a privledge. I can find another ride that's not so damn nosey to take DH and new horse.
                                        I think you're overreacting. Providing your health insurance information is protection for YOU, not them. You've most likely signed away any liability on their behalf by filling out an entry blank. While you might feel it inappropriate for them to request your policy number, chances are this is only to cover YOUR BEST INTEREST in the event of an emergency. Anyway, I don't really see how not requesting health insurance information would open an event organizer to the possibility of a lawsuit. Most states file riding horses under "risky" as it is, so it becomes quite difficult to sue anyone in the event that proper liability releases are in hand. Seems to me as if this insurance thing is intended to protect the riders in event of serious injury.

                                        If you don't want to provide your policy number, why not ask your insurance provider to provide a letter of "proof of insurance". I submitted such a letter when acquiring a visa for living abroad, and it contained no personal information other than my name and the name of the insurance company. This was enough for the German government to allow me to live there for 14 months. And btw, I was REQUIRED to be insured to live in Germany, and it was absolutely legal for the government to request proof of that coverage.
                                        Here today, gone tomorrow...

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