• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Requiring health insurance for riders?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    I have hired riders from Craigslist and insist they have their own insurance. Maybe you are talking about me

    here's some reasons why:
    !. I worked hard my entire life for this farm and these horses
    2. my horses are barely green broke and who knows? they could buck and rear, which is why I'd like a younger, fitter rider for the beginning 10 rides.
    3. I have warning and liability signs posted everywhere, as per state law
    4. I make the rider sign a liability release form, even though I've heard they are next to worthless
    5. everyone thinks they are great riders, trainers, horsepeople. they are not
    6. craigslist. hard times. easy set up for a lawsuit/get sued/lose everything.

    I have gotten 2 AMAZING riders so far. they both had their own coverage.
    I am concerned for their own welfare as well as mine.

    Comment


    • #22
      I understand the above motivation. But it's not a shield against a suit by an injured rider or some carrier that pays for their injury.

      A good liablity policy, along with the other steps noted, is the surest protection you can get.

      G.

      Former regional vice president for claims, small property casualty carrier.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

      Comment


      • #23
        I just wanted to say amen to the poster who mentioned that an insured person can still be stuck with huge medical bills. I was insured with a policy that I was paying over $250 a month for (just for me, mind you), and when I was injured I was still stuck with more than $10,000 in medical bills. This was with a $1,000 deductible. Now I just have a super cheap accident policy because not only is it not worth it if they're going to pull that, but trying to pay off those #%*& bills makes it difficult for me to afford anything more. If I didn't work in the horse industry I wouldn't have anything and just take my chances.

        That really doesn't have any bearing on the OP, but I just like to complain about it. As far as the OP goes, I guess the employer has a right to demand it but I would feel like it was an invasion of my privacy, too, and I don't think it changes her likelihood of being sued (in fact, depending on the person, it may increase her chances--the injured party doesn't have a say in whether the insurance company sues or not).
        exploring the relationship between horse and human

        Comment


        • #24
          well, I would not think of it as an invasion of privacy. After all, person on craigslist would be coming as a stranger to MY farm, working with MY animals and that is MY privacy. Lots of kooks on craigslist......

          but anyway, if I could afford an expensive insurance policy covering every person wandering onto the property, including mormons and jehovah witnesses, I would. But now I have an average policy, post signs, have strong electric fencing and big pitbulls. No, I'm not paranoid.

          Comment


          • #25
            I wouldn't see it as an invasion of privacy, it's not like they're checking your pre-existing conditions. You're going to be on MY farm working with MY animals, I want to make sure you're covered should something happen to you. Suit or not.

            I'm not saying I wouldn't LIKE health insurance, it's just that I've worked in the horse world where most employers don't provide it, and they don't pay enough for me to afford my own. In my mind, if an employer won't offer it to employees they have no right requiring it. I don't think it changes the odds of being sued, although it might alleviate the BOs guilt for having an employee injured and stuck with a huge bill.
            I can see your point, and I'm always an advocate for BOs to offer health insurance to their employees. However, this is a once a month or so caretaker position, with minimal riding as a perk. From a business standpoint, if you scrap the riding, similar to hiring a farrier or something to perform a service for a brief amount of time. That makes them a contractor, not a full time employee. For that, I'd simply be more comfortable hiring someone insured.
            ---
            They're small hearts.

            Comment


            • #26
              I guarantee you that if you were "working" for someone and you were hurt and your insurance company found out about how you were hurt they would go for the person who your were working for. Now, you are not required to have Workers comp if you have only a few employees or they are contract or whatever, but you still might have to pay. It is difficult to know if what you are doing is protecting yourself. So we just all try our best to do what we can. I don't think more people sue today than in the past. I think being very safety conscience and using common sense is the best way to stay out of trouble. Many times when someone wins a law suit someone really did do something stupid. For example, the notorious lady who burned herself on McDonald's coffee and then sued. Well, that coffee maker was known to be malfunctioning and making coffee far far hotter than it was supposed to be. The owner of the restaurant failed to have it fixed and then she got severe burns from super super hot coffee. The suit that made John Edwards all of his money was a sauna maker that knew their motors were defective but didn't want to recall. It ended up nearly killing a little girl by sucking her intestines down the drain of a jacuzzi or pool or something. There are usually details that get left out on CNN. My point is that if you don't do anything stupid a jury will usually see your side. I don't think I would require someone to have insurance.
              “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?”
              ? Rumi






              Comment


              • #27
                I'm a litigation attorney although I suspect I practice in a different state from the poster who wants her help to have medical insurance. I won't get into the whole issue of work comp because I understand that can differ by state as can the whole question of independent contractor versus employee. Notwithstanding that issue, other people's medical insurance really offers a property owner no protection at all.

                For one thing, even top of the line medical insurance today has limits and there can be a big chunk of expense that is uncovered.

                Secondly, most of the cases I get hired to defend involve a plaintiff that had medical insurance or coverage of some kind. It doesn't stop a lawsuit. Health coverage is usually just a collateral source that gets dealt with at the end of the day and usually by paying off a lien out of the proceeds of a settlement or verdict.

                Thirdly, the health insurance carrier may have their own litigation rights against the property owner if they believe there was negligence involved and local laws support their claim to recover all of the moneys paid. They can intervene in an ongoing lawsuit or they can simply file their own.

                The best way to protect yourself is to proactively protect yourself with your own coverage. Go with a recognized company. Don't skimp on your coverages and limits. Ask for med pay coverage if they offer it. Consult with a lawyer to draft a strong express assumption of the risk type release specifically crafted with your state's laws in mind. No it will not prevent a suit but it's very existence may scare off plaintiff's lawyers. For example, I've represented health clubs before and the national companies have this down to a science to the point where every major phrase in release agreements has been litigated and its meaning has been determined by an appellate court. Have your attorney use their experience and their language if its applicable.

                My 2 pennies: This is where hiring a lawyer and having a good insurance agent who understands your business as opposed to Googling things yourself can make all the difference in the world.

                Comment


                • #28
                  I don't think it's an unreasonable stipulation--I require my working students to have it. It strikes me as odd that you wouldn't have asked her why she places such a stipulation on the position. Why does she say she wants you to have it?

                  I could imagine that any of the explanations offered here might be the reason.

                  She also might want it clear from the outset that you will be responsible and assume the risk for your own medical expenses that could result from her job.

                  If you are the only person working at the barn, doing so as an employee rather than an independent contractor would likely be a very expensive proposition for the BO to take on, with hefty payroll expenses to meet prior to your ever getting a dime of wages.
                  Inner Bay Equestrian
                  Facebook
                  KERx

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Personally I do believe it is unreasonable...

                    If a person/farm/entity wants hired help they need to be able to pay for and take care of their employees. 1099 is a joke. Too many businesses use it for their own profit and screw employees over in the meantime.

                    I currently do not have health insurance. If I was looking for a job and one of the requirements was for me to carry some type of health insurance, I would probably kindly say no thank you and get on with my search. Of course they do have every right to make that requirement and I have every right to come out and say I don't agree with it.

                    Frivolous lawsuits happen all the time, health insurance or not. Forget about if you have the money to ride you should have the money for insurance. How about if you have the money for a farm or business don't you think one of the most important things to have is insurance????

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      If a person/farm/entity wants hired help they need to be able to pay for and take care of their employees. 1099 is a joke. Too many businesses use it for their own profit and screw employees over in the meantime.
                      Again, it's a once a month caretaker position. Horsesitting, from what it sounds like. Pet sitting often uses independent contractors - inconsistent (and few) hours, etc. The OP's employer is not hiring a full time employee, she's asking for someone to provide a monthly service.

                      The OP also said the health insurance was only required to RIDE, if I'm not mistaken, not to do the job in question.

                      I'm a huge advocate for BO's offering health care to their employees. However, many independent contractors (again citing farriers, or perhaps a vet) operate under their own small business and build the costs of health insurance into their overhead.

                      Do you propose that each individual BO pay for health insurance for the farrier and vet as well when they provide a service? Or would you consider that overhead built into their costs?
                      ---
                      They're small hearts.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Trixie View Post
                        Again, it's a once a month caretaker position. Horsesitting, from what it sounds like. Pet sitting often uses independent contractors - inconsistent (and few) hours, etc. The OP's employer is not hiring a full time employee, she's asking for someone to provide a monthly service.

                        The OP also said the health insurance was only required to RIDE, if I'm not mistaken, not to do the job in question.

                        I'm a huge advocate for BO's offering health care to their employees. However, many independent contractors (again citing farriers, or perhaps a vet) operate under their own small business and build the costs of health insurance into their overhead.

                        Do you propose that each individual BO pay for health insurance for the farrier and vet as well when they provide a service? Or would you consider that overhead built into their costs?
                        It sounds to me like you may be confusing workmans comp with health insurance. They are definitely not the same thing. Many full time positions provide both, but must provide workmans comp as a minimum. I have workmans comp to cover the exercise rider that gets on my horse once or twice per week. That will cover any injury that happens while working for me for those few minutes. Even if that person had health insurance it would not pay for a work related injury. That same person gets in a car accident on the way home, that would be health insurance.
                        McDowell Racing Stables

                        Home Away From Home

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I couldn't imagine climbing on a horse without health insurance. Just Saturday, one of our riders took a spill off her horse...simple accident. Horse walked away from the mounting block and she landed on her shoulder/dislocated it. On the way home, all I could think was...maybe I should up my HI so I have a better deductiable plan. Yikes.

                          I don't blame the lady...whether she's asking for liability or health....I think she's entitled to ask for it.

                          I know that the last big commerical barn that I was at, required proof of insurance or you didn't get on a horse..period.

                          Could also be a stipulation in HER insurance......they require that anyone on her property have insurance.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I'm no insurance expert - but I was responding to the person that said if a BO wants to demand an employee have health insurance, they need to be willing to offer it. I support that for a full time staffer, but a once per month contractor?

                            I'd imagine in this case, it's merely because the BO feels better with their employee having health insurance, even if from a liability perspective the BO was covered.

                            How about if you have the money for a farm or business don't you think one of the most important things to have is insurance????
                            ---
                            They're small hearts.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Trixie View Post
                              I'm no insurance expert - but I was responding to the person that said if a BO wants to demand an employee have health insurance, they need to be willing to offer it. I support that for a full time staffer, but a once per month contractor?

                              I'd imagine in this case, it's merely because the BO feels better with their employee having health insurance, even if from a liability perspective the BO was covered.
                              Trixie-

                              I was talking about liability insurance. If the BO is attempting to shelter themselves from a lawsuit (which it sounds like... why else?), they have it backwards. They need to be taking care of themselves or if they cannot afford it then they do not need to employ anyone.
                              The statement about 1099 being a joke was just a rant (as my SO was caught in a bad situation with a 1099 employers). I agree with the fact that there is no reason to either supply nor require actual health insurance to a non full-time employee.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I am right in the middle of this dilemma with insurance. Of course, you have to do what the employer requests, but having health insurance doesn't help anybody but the drug & insurance companies.

                                What you really need is:
                                A. accident insurance
                                B. disability/compensation insurance provided by your state

                                The first one is self explanatory....it pays you a small amount if you have any accident, anywhere. Slip and fall on ice, break your arm & they give you money towards the emergancy room bill. Chip your tooth on vacation and they give you money towards an emergancy filling. It's not expensive, ($250/yr with State Farm for ex) but it also doesn't pay out as much as real hospital bills cost. But it helps.

                                The second one is what is usually taken out of your paycheck by your employer. But these days you often have to cover yourself. This insurance is still pretty inexpensive, ($550/yr in NY) but will cover some Dr & emergancy room bills and more importantly, compensate your pay if you can't work.

                                In my line of work I'm required to have a $3 million liability policy on TOP of all that in case I get hurt on someone else's property. THAT covers the client, not really me and it's over $1000/yr. I simply charge my clients $1000 more each year to cover it.
                                Stupid, because I would never sue a client if I was hurt on the job. If I saw anything on their premisis that I deemed dangerous, I simply wouldn't work there!

                                But "heath" insurance is a total rip off all the way around.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X