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CAIR Panels. Look here for an eye opener!

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
    I'm hardly blaming the existence of the CAIR, primarily I am just less than impressed with the product and workmanship (or lack thereof). And yes I did have a fitter look at it, along with several other qualified persons.
    But was it a fitter who had the training required to modify the shape of the CAIR panels? IME, many saddle people don't even know this can be done. I wouldn't know if it wasn't for neVar, even though I have owned 2 WINTEC saddles with CAIR and discussed them with several pros.

    I made the comment because you blamed the CAIR panels, basically, for your horse's back problems. Any poorly fitting saddle can cause back problems in a horse.

    Comment


    • #22
      I don't care for CAIR () either, but I'd keep an open mind as to what the cause is. I mean, presumably it is the saddle, but it might not be the CAIR panels specifically. I have heard of them making horses sore, although AFAIK those riders switched to Wintecs or Bates and then switched to different brands without ever trying to get the saddles reflocked or anything, so again, who knows. I just feel like they ride differently than saddles flocked with more traditional materials, and I don't like it as much.
      exploring the relationship between horse and human

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      • #23
        So you rode in this saddle for almost 4 years, either never noticed it made your horse sore or it just started making your horse sore, and are just now complaining about the CAIR panels not being up to your standards?

        You have to do your homework on any saddle you buy. It describes the CAIR system right on the website, and has for years (I have a Bates Event that is about 4 years old, so I know this because I did my research). My saddle also has the velcro down the panels, and I have taken mine almost completely apart out of curiosity.

        If you bought a wool flocked saddle that didn't properly fit your horse, or you never had it checked over the years, would you blame wool for causing your horse to be sore? What if you bought a pair of pants that were too tight in the waist and dug into your skin? Would you blame the seller of the pants? Or lets say you buy a horse that, after 4 years, ends up not being a good fit for you. Are you going to badmouth the seller for selling you a bad horse?

        It all just seems far-fetched. Any saddle that does not fit can cause issues.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          I am merely posting pictures that I did not get an opportunity to see for others to see when they are doing their research on saddles to purchase. Honestly these thing look much worse in real life than they do in the pictures.
          I sure didn't see anything that looked like this on any website before I bought my saddle. If I had I would not have bought it.
          Whether the CAIR did or did not cause the problems with my horses back is not the subject, although it didn't help. And yes the issues that began as a result of the back pain came about over a rather short period.
          The subject is the crappy workmanship of these panels. They really are crappy.
          A piece of felt and a cheap balloon glued together with paste is not quality workmanship in my book.
          "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

          Comment


          • #25
            To each their own, I guess. I had a Wintec Pro Jump for awhile and it fit my TB beautifully. He seemed just fine in the CAIR panels. I'd have kept it but for the fact that my legs are too long for the cut of the panels. I have my wool saddles checked and tweaked 2x/year and I liked the fact that the CAIR was mostly self adjusting. My saddle fitter likes them too. I also have a saddle with FLAIR panels which my saddle fitter doesn't like. I've had more issues with that one as the bladder on one side is leaking. So, my $3000 saddle doesn't work nearly as well as the one I paid $400 for!
            Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
            EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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            • #26
              I have to give the thumbs up to the older bates.. mine is 9 years old and going strong... never had a problem with it.
              If i'm posting on Coth, it's either raining so I can't ride or it's night time and I can't sleep.

              Comment


              • #27
                Thanks for the heads up about the CAIR and Bates saddles. For $1950 I expect much better workmanship than some tape holding the panels together. As a Physical Therapist I was concerned about using air in the panels. Hope i am correct about that?
                Air is very very hard and unforgiving. For awhile small inflatable back braces were the rage but if more than 2 breaths of air was blown into the brace it then became unbearably hard. They were so difficult to adjust the braces stopped being sued in our clinic. So if people who know how they feel can't get it right I cannot imagine being able to get it correct on a animal. Cannot imagine using it on a horses back. Compressed air is hard as a rock.
                So I won't be buying the Bates with Cair and i was really looking forward to the adjustable gullets.

                Comment


                • #28
                  CAIR panels are not air. They are mostly a type of foam. They feel firm.

                  FLAIR panels are air. Some people love them; others hate them. FLAIR panels are pretty soft and squishy. You do not adjust them to be hard.

                  Don't write off the Bates/Wintecs just yet. However, remember that adjustable gullets are NOT the same as an adjustable tree.

                  Originally posted by walkers View Post
                  Thanks for the heads up about the CAIR and Bates saddles. For $1950 I expect much better workmanship than some tape holding the panels together. As a Physical Therapist I was concerned about using air in the panels. Hope i am correct about that?
                  Air is very very hard and unforgiving. For awhile small inflatable back braces were the rage but if more than 2 breaths of air was blown into the brace it then became unbearably hard. They were so difficult to adjust the braces stopped being sued in our clinic. So if people who know how they feel can't get it right I cannot imagine being able to get it correct on a animal. Cannot imagine using it on a horses back. Compressed air is hard as a rock.
                  So I won't be buying the Bates with Cair and i was really looking forward to the adjustable gullets.
                  Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                  EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Hay

                    I have to say I had a Bates Caprilli CAIR. THe panels deflated twice on me. The first time the manufacturer replaced the saddle and the second time I had the saddle reflocked with wool. While it gave me a perfect position and an equitation leg that saddle just never fit my horse well. Not sure if it was the shape of the CAIR panels or the actual tree shape or what. I worked with several saddle fitters with this and eventually put the saddle in a tack store on consignment...it's still there...
                    Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
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                    • #30
                      It is only on this site that I have heard of dissatisfaction with the Bates CAIR. I have never heard anyone personally say they do not like them. I bought mine because I thought it was a nice saddle for the price - wish I could remember how many years ago - but I did find out later that in teeny letters it says "Made in Vietnam" under the flap. I had been under the impression that it was made in Australia.

                      I used it on my TB to go ranch riding when it was still new. Five days with five hours in the saddle in steep terrain and we were both very comfortable. Other horses had sore backs, she was fine and was the only one in English tack. For a non-ranch horse she is so brave, I'm proud of her.

                      It has been a good saddle for me but these comments are certainly an interesting read.
                      Has anybody contacted Bates directly with complaints?
                      Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I have a Bates Caprilli with CAIR and love it. I have had it 6 or 7 years. A friend rides my horse in her PJ sometimes and there is a distinct difference. His back even looks worse after being ridden in hers. He moves better and is much more willing to go forward in mine. Different strokes for different folks, though. But you may want to go back and read your first post. It came across as quite a sound bashing of the company, not just pictures posted.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Hay

                          Out of curiosity those that love Bates, what kind of horse are you riding? TB or cross bred. I would love to hear about anatomy. Is your horse a bit sway backed or not...Just curious. I'm wondering if this particular saddle fits the more TB-type horse, lean backed... Or is it the other way around? Just curious not bashing...
                          Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
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                          • #33
                            Mine is the typical, high withered, lean backed thoroughbred. He would have to be past foundering to have a flat back. He has a nice neck and doesn't sound like it but he does have a topline, just bony withers. Haha you ask like we might bite your head off! (It's not like you asked how fat I was!! jk) I used to always use a wither relief pad, but splurged last year and bought a thinline. I didn't buy it because he was uncomfortable. I always put something under the saddle because I feel bad for his bony back! The saddle sits nicely on him with no pads. I always fight dry spots right behind his withers, but that's the case with every saddle I have ever put on him. This one leaves a much more uniform sweat mark than even the PJ. The changable gullet helps too.

                            It did take some getting used to. I had a Wintec first, same design (this is the 3rd saddle I have had since I got him though). For the first week or so he was kind of weird - would sort of scoot out forward. Never bad or upset, though. He is only back sore when his bad hocks need injecting. That has been the case since long before this saddle. Honestly - if I won the lottery I wouldn't replace it. I love it.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              My main problem with the CAIR or the FLAIR is that, because the two ballons of air are taped together like that, they do not distribute weight evenly. All the weight from the rider is concentrated where that tape is and causes for some pretty sore ponies. Think about a balloon, wherever you squeeze, the air moves away from there. With the way those panels are constructed, the air in them is moving to the front and back end of the saddle leaving the middle to sag and apply pressure straight down onto the horses spine. Not something I would want to put on my horses back.

                              As a side note, I used Ava Vettenburg to reflock one of my saddles and absolutely loved her and she did a great job. I would highly recommend her to anyone who needs a saddle reflocked.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by pines4equines View Post
                                Out of curiosity those that love Bates, what kind of horse are you riding? TB or cross bred. I would love to hear about anatomy. Is your horse a bit sway backed or not...Just curious. I'm wondering if this particular saddle fits the more TB-type horse, lean backed... Or is it the other way around? Just curious not bashing...
                                Considering that every horse and every TB will have a different back, this isn't really a fair question. But if we're going to generalize, I do find that the Bates/Wintec tack fits SOME TB's very well, the ones who fit the narrower gullets especially. The wider the TB gets, the lower your odds of the saddle fitting well because the wider the gullet goes, the less wither clearance you have. The panels are also moderately curvy but not super duper curvy, so for a TB with a very curvy topline you could have bridging problems. It would NOT be my choice for a swaybacked horse.

                                My TB fit pretty well in a Bates when his topline was less curvy, but as he grew up, he grew out of it. It was a great saddle while it lasted.
                                Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I had some same issues and then some. Had a Bates Caprilli dressage, wool flocked when CAIR panels went bad, no biggy still loved the saddle. Few months ago when noticing "squeeking" sound, opened it up and flex points where end of gullet plates seat where cracked. Saddle fitter said he could fix them. WHen he took a closer look, testing the tree with very little pressure, seat of saddle folded in half! He said he has seen about 100 of the Bates and Wintecs do this (mine was 8-10 yrs, made in Australia).
                                  We sent it back for a new one for free and I am trading it in for a Prestige. I dont want the same issues back.
                                  Have a Wintec 2000AP and the flex points on it where cracked too, so it got sent back as well.

                                  Loved them while I had them, but would not buy another one.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Hay

                                    I too had the dry patches behind the withers and it even caused some white hairs there that probably will be there forever. I also got a swelling on his spine about where the taped areas met. From seeing the photos, I see why I had that swelling on his spine. It does seem that people either really love the saddle or hate it. Well, good luck all.
                                    Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
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                                    • #38
                                      We sent it back for a new one for free
                                      That's damn good customer service for a saddle that was at the very end of it lifespan. I think the lesson is, talk to your wintec rep if you have any problem with the saddle.

                                      Pines4equines- those symptoms say the saddle did not fit your horse. They certainly don't fit everything.
                                      "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

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                                      • #39
                                        Like all saddles: some love 'em, some hate 'em

                                        Like any saddle, the Bates/Wintec/CAIR works for some horses/riders and not others. I always have to giggle when someone discovers that the saddle doesn't fit their horse and gets all indignant because they thought it would fit EVERY horse. Get a grip folks. The saddles work great for me - I ride young horses off the track almost exclusively and have 4 of these saddles: (1) Bates Caprilli Dressage; (2) Wintec Pro Dressage; (3) Bates Caprilli Close Contact; and (4) Bates Caprilli Event that was converted to wool before I bought it. I certainly don't expect them to work for every horse, but the the interchangeable gullets are very versatile and I can tell you it's been quite some time since I had to look farther afield because a horse did not fit at least one of these saddles. I cannot imagine how much time and money I would have had to spend if I had to fit these same horses in fixed-tree saddles. I agree that they are best for horses with flattish backs, by which I mean as seen from the side - they would likely bridge on a scoopier or sway back. The panels are gusseted, so it should come as no surprise that they work best for horses that need a gusseted panel. I have yet to notice any problems whatsoever related to the CAIR panels or the joint between them, nor have I noticed any particular issues with the way they ride from my perspective. If I did experience these problems as the CAIR bags got old, I wouldn't hesitate to just redo them with wool and carry on. I have noticed that in very cold weather (like -20F and colder) the CAIR panels feel very firm to finger pressure, but the horses don't seem to notice or care. My two current horses are very different in size and shape. The 3yo filly started with a narrow gullet around 4 months back and now wears a medium. The 5yo gelding started with a medium gullet and now has the widest white one. In my experience, changing the gullets has not messed up the fit of the panels, but I am sure there are horses out there for which this could be the case. The fit for me varies a bit between the saddle models, but the balance works in all of them. I was initially very snobby about the synthetics and used just the Bates saddles, but since buying the Wintec Pro Dressage at a tack swap last year I have learned to love, love, LOVE the stickiness of that fake suede for riding the goofy young things that like to spin, bolt, and buck, and am now jonesing for a Wintec Pro Jump. If any of you-all that hate the saddles with a passion have a 17.5 brown one you want to dump, just drop me a PM!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I was so much happier moving to the leather Bates from the Wintec - it wasn't as soft. But now am kicking myself for letting it go. My horse didn't seem to notice a difference. I bought the Caprilli because I was happy with the Wintec but missed the leather. It's the same saddle. I can see how neither would fit a sway backed horse, but I would think they are a major challenge anyway. If anyone has any ideas about the dry wither spots, I'm all ears!! I have tried many saddles, and many pads, all the same. I have not noticed soreness ever where the panels would meet, or soreness at his withers.

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