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  • #21
    I don't see ringside coaching as a sign of The End of Civilization As We Know It, at least at lower levels. I could maybe see a rule prohibiting "outside assistance" at big rated shows, or at 3' and up, but not otherwise. Many of the riders showing at the low heights/schooling shows are new little kids, or frozen-with-fear reriders. They need all the help they can get. The whole point of such divisions/shows, IMO, is to encourage the riders (or the parents paying the bills) to continue with the sport. A couple of ribbons of any color at all can do more to reinforce that desire than a whole year of fabulous lessons.

    Can it get overdone? Sure. Anything can. Frankly, as a spectator I'd much rather put up with listening to a trainer coach a rider around the entire course than listening to a trainer shred a rider after their course for doing a bad job. We don't legislate against the one; shouldn't legislate against the other.

    I would imagine that at an AA show in a big division a judge WOULD take audible "assistance" into account, at least informally, if 2 rides were otherwise identical (not that they ever are.......).
    Incredible Invisible

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    • #22
      Spectators yelling instructions in eventing

      Last year I was fence judging a recognized horse trial. The fence I was in charge of was in the middle of a field and with the course set up, there was a 90 degree right turn to it (overall, the course had a lot of twists and turns). I had a guy who sat down on a fence that was facing the riders as they came along (directly in their line of site before the turn). To my knowledge he wasn't associated with anyone in particular. But I caught him pointing riders to the fence a couple of times, and yep, he called out a few times. Now, in my judgement, none of the people he directed needed his help, but I still hit the point of speaking rather firmly to him, informing him that what he was doing was strictly against the rules and quite likely to get a rider eliminated. He rolled his eyes, called me a bad name under his breath, and no longer "helped". Made me want to punch him in the mouth.

      Comment


      • #23
        As an aspiring eventer, here's my two cents:

        If I made a bad judgment on the XC course, the LAST thing I would need would be for it to have come from someone else, even if that person was well meaning. What if the outside assister is giving you crappy advice that could endanger you and your horse? When I am busy concentrating on galloping around a course safely and expediently, I don't usually have the mental acuity--nor the reflex speed--to hear, evaluate, and decide whether or not to accept the advice of someone yelling at me. So I'd rather not hear it.

        If you take someone's crappy advice in a hunter or jumper ring, bad things could happen to you. But will you die or seriously injure yourself/your horse? Possibly, but not likely considering the soft footing, the fences that would confine a loose horse, and the collapsible nature of the obstacles. By contrast, safety has to be the priority in an open air scenario where horses are jumping solid obstacles and high speeds. I can't explain why eventers also forbid outside assistance on the show jumping stage, but I suppose the uniformity of just NEVER allowing outside assistance keeps it from peeping out on XC (where, again, could be dangerous or fatal).
        Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

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        • #24
          I think any kind of assistance in a recognized show should be forbidden. In schooling shows, I don't see a problem with it as long as it is not excessive.

          In Weatherford's case, if the jump judge was able to hear the mother then the rider was likely within range to hear her too. It sucks for those who get caught up in the rules, but it is the responsibility of riders and their "cheering section" to know and follow them.
          "Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." ~Jimmy Buffett

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          • #25
            I was eliminated for the same reason and I never heard my friend yell, Use your whip."

            Didn't Princess Anne get a friend eliminated, accidentally, for doing the same thing?

            Anyway... I wasn't a kid, I didn't hear her, and I had to take my toys and go home.

            It sucked. It was a horribly expensive day, I had worked tremendously hard, I even paid for stabling.

            And it was at the first freakin' fence. After I was eliminated they made the fence judge move - several people had been eliminated before me and they figured out that it might be her causing a problem.

            She was sitting next to the jump. I mean - right next to it like she could reach out and touch it.

            Anyway.... back at the ranch...... I gave my friend an earful. She felt awful, I was ticked, it was hot - and we went home and had a beer and laughed about it.

            All's well that ends well.
            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
            -Rudyard Kipling

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            • #26
              What mother wouldn't call out to their child on xc? Most of us! I really took that to heart and worried so much that someone would get her eliminated through the years. We all knew the rules and just mumbled under our breath. I have had to delete the sound from my video camera to erase an inapropriate word. I don't cuss as a rule but watching your child go xc can bring it out!

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              • #27
                I went to a one day, unrecognized horse trial with a friend last year and during my dressage test she was sitting on her horse with a towel in her mouth so that she wouldn't accidentally give me instruction

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by whitney159 View Post
                  there was a 90 degree right turn to it (overall, the course had a lot of twists and turns). I had a guy who sat down on a fence that was facing the riders as they came along (directly in their line of site before the turn). To my knowledge he wasn't associated with anyone in particular. But I caught him pointing riders to the fence a couple of times, and yep, he called out a few times.
                  I guess he was not aware that event riders actually walk their courses before riding. Good to hear you stopped him from his unwanted "helping", rather than eliminating the riders.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    In my humble opinion...the rules are there for good reasons, but a reasonable interpretation of the rules is what makes a good official. Coaching a student around a course or test is unacceptable... but does an over-enthusiastic Mom or friends (especially at low levels) reacting in the moment constitute 'help'?? If the Mom/friends are actually interfering (or being a PITA) then, in the big picture, it is against the rules and should be dealt with... but a one-off remark...? Perhaps a bit harsh on the judge's side.
                    Last edited by Fixerupper; Mar. 20, 2009, 06:35 PM.
                    * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
                    Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
                    NO! What was the question?

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                    • #30
                      A rule disallowing outside assistance would have eliminated her. One the other hand, without this assistance, she simply would not have been able to show at all, and, in fact, the showing and this "coaching" absolutely helped her brain's healing over the long run. She far surpassed her doctors' expectations!
                      I think for this, with some sort of Dr's note or something, it's possible that a judge would allow more outside assistance than otherwise if it was forbidden. I know at least in H/J land, folks have been able to work out specific instances with judges - for instance, an ankle injury that doesn't allow a competitor to wear the required footwear.

                      I was once eliminated from a class for outside assistance when outside assistance was not against the rules. Once I pointed that out to the powers-that-be, I was given the opportunity to reride and wound up third.
                      ---
                      They're small hearts.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I have no clue about eventing world but that rule sounds strange to me. So if I were an eventer, and I wanted to eliminate my toughest competitors, all I needed to do were to yell some instructions when my competitors were going over fences?

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Wow.. I guess it is a matter of different worlds.

                          When I showed at a rated Arab show (several years ago), many trainers were giving advice on the rail. Heck one of them (not mine, I didn't have a trainer), pointed out my bad lead. I checked. She was right, I got it swamped but blew the class (not because of the advice). Its probably been 5 years since I've even watched at a rated Arab show, so maybe that has changed.

                          A few years ago when I was in MI showing at open shows, my husband used to give advice from the rail. It was never anything big - more, "remember to smile", "head up", "looking good" or something small. One of the mothers was appalled that he would tell me how to ride - NOT because it was outside assistance, but because she thought I would be mad.

                          Anyway, I guess it just matters what type of showing you do... I don't have a problem with it, but I guess that's also because I grew up with trainers giving pointers from the rail.
                          Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

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                          • #33
                            As a rider, I find this so very distracting in the show ring. I get in this zone and don't WANT any one talking to me. My trainer was more likely to get ignored than me to actually comprehend what she was saying. I especially hated it in flat classes. I just wanted to ride!! We can talk about it later. Finally she caught on. But it took several shows worth of, "Did you not hear me when I said xyz?" "No, I didn't hear anything."

                            ETA FWIW, that trainer was when I rode hunters. I loved pony club rallies BECAUSE no one was telling us what to do. It was a very freeing feeling after my hunter trainer, lol.
                            There are stars in the Southern sky and if ever you decide you should go there is a taste of time sweetened honey.

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                            • #34
                              I like the no unauthorized assistance rule because I look at competing as the opportunity to show/do what you know and not how quickly you can respond to coaching and instructions. But that is just me- I don't think it is bad that it is allowed in h/j or anything. It is a well-known rule in eventing (or should be and if you don't know it, you have not been reading your rulebook which is foolish as there are many ways to get eliminated if you don't know your rules) and as a competitor and/or trainer, it is your responsbility to tell mom and friends to be quiet and not offer advice although generic cheering is fine.
                              In my experience, the officials have been reasonable in applying the no unauthorized assistance rule. For example, when I was a jump judge last year and the mom standing next to me shouted "half halt" to her daughter, I told her to be quiet unless she wanted to get her daughter eliminated and told her about the rule - she was horrified at what she might have done. I told the TD and PoGJ who questioned me and, because I did not think the daughter heard her and she did not half-halt her horse (which would have been a bad idea anyway IMO ), they did not eliminate the girl but the TD sure as heck scared the crap out of mom when she gave her a talking to about unauthorized assistance.
                              I think it sucks out loud if you are eliminated by a total stranger shouting something out, but frankly I have not personally heard of that happening and, if it does, I am sure it is exceedingly rare. While it is theoretically possible to get your competitors eliminated by doing this, eventers just don't seem to do that.
                              There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by bambam View Post
                                For example, when I was a jump judge last year and the mom standing next to me shouted "half halt" to her daughter, I told her to be quiet unless she wanted to get her daughter eliminated and told her about the rule - she was horrified at what she might have done. I told the TD and PoGJ who questioned me and, because I did not think the daughter heard her and she did not half-halt her horse (which would have been a bad idea anyway IMO ), they did not eliminate the girl but the TD sure as heck scared the crap out of mom when she gave her a talking to about unauthorized assistance.
                                That is a much more reasonable way to handle the situation, especially for a child rider. In my books that makes you a good official.
                                * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
                                Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
                                NO! What was the question?

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Quin View Post
                                  I don't see ringside coaching as a sign of The End of Civilization As We Know It, at least at lower levels. I could maybe see a rule prohibiting "outside assistance" at big rated shows, or at 3' and up, but not otherwise. Many of the riders showing at the low heights/schooling shows are new little kids, or frozen-with-fear reriders. They need all the help they can get. The whole point of such divisions/shows, IMO, is to encourage the riders (or the parents paying the bills) to continue with the sport. A couple of ribbons of any color at all can do more to reinforce that desire than a whole year of fabulous lessons.

                                  Can it get overdone? Sure. Anything can. Frankly, as a spectator I'd much rather put up with listening to a trainer coach a rider around the entire course than listening to a trainer shred a rider after their course for doing a bad job. We don't legislate against the one; shouldn't legislate against the other.

                                  I would imagine that at an AA show in a big division a judge WOULD take audible "assistance" into account, at least informally, if 2 rides were otherwise identical (not that they ever are.......).
                                  I totally agree with this. When assistance in the H/J world becomes totally obnoxious, the judge should penalize it. Personally, I hate hearing trainers holler through someone's entire course, but I really don't see it all that often. However, I wouldn't go so far as to eliminate a short stirrup kid or limit adult for a trainer's quiet "steady... relax..." as the student comes around the in gate. Likewise, if a rider gets into trouble, I'd rather see a trainer holler out instructions than witness something really ugly. In that case, the rider is very unlikely to pin anyway (unless it's a truly horrible class), so why not avoid a disaster?

                                  Of course, those are extremes and there are all kinds of in between situations. That's why I like that it's penalized at the judge's discretion. I realize this doesn't apply to disciplnes like eventing. However, in my personal opinion, if I need a trainer's quiet reassurances as I pass the in gate or help when I get into trouble, I wouldn't feel ready to go gallloping cross country and jump solid fences.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Well, I know there have been many times where I've been standing near the ring watching jumpers and have desperately, desperately wanted to shout "HALF HALT!" or "Slow the heck down!!" as someone came screaming toward a fence way too fast.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Gloria View Post
                                      I have no clue about eventing world but that rule sounds strange to me. So if I were an eventer, and I wanted to eliminate my toughest competitors, all I needed to do were to yell some instructions when my competitors were going over fences?

                                      Oh, I expect after you'd done that to three ot four competitors that a group of more seasoned eventers would come and explain very clearly to you that it was unwise to do that...
                                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        On a slightly different note, I was helping to coach at a schooling HT last year, left one of our competitors in the start box and headed out to the first fence. She was counted down, left the box and horse (*(&@!!!) began propping halfway to the first fence. Knowing the rule, I stood by the fence judge well out of the way and bit my tongue.

                                        As the rider could not get the horse really anywhere near the fence, she was given the E. At which point I asked the fence judge if I could help and the saintly fence judge said, "this is a schooling HT and we are running ahead of time, go ahead." We were not allowed to jump, but I was at least able to lead the animal up to the obstacle, which was a 20 yard improvement, where he began to breathe again. The rider was given permission to compete in stadium and was able to leave the competition on an up note.

                                        I'm very grateful for officials who, when it's possible, apply the rules in a way that enables participants to have as positive and encouraging an experience as possible.
                                        Talk to the Hoof

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Ghazzu...I don't think it would take 3 or 4 times. Once and the person would be in a heap of trouble from fellow competitors. Yes Gloria, someone could do that but I have never heard of it happening. Eventers are miles away from being saints but I do not know of anyone who would knowingly pull a stunt like that. They may be out there, but they wouldn't do it more than once!

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