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One Eyed Harry's Thread

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  • #61
    Originally posted by county View Post
    I've never said anything differently but placing the horse as a different then other livestock? No they all deserve the same IMO
    You are missing my point - this thread was about a good school horse that ended up at slaughter because someone betrayed a trust and decided to make a buck. If the horse had been bred for consumption then that would be fine, but the horse was bred, raised, trained, used and sold as a riding horse. If the owner had known where he was going to end up, then it would never have happened.

    I would venture that if you told a breeder that every foal which hits the ground this year on their farm will go to the auction, I bet there would be some seconds thoughts because that is not what was intended.

    There needs to be a better and more secure avenue for horses to travel during their lives because there are too many shady people willing to lie to make a buck especially when people are down on their luck, and thats what most people are objecting to.

    But it all comes back to the fact that this is enabled by horses being classified as a consumable product when that is not the intent.

    Comment


    • #62
      To get back on topic here a bit.....

      This started as a "knowledge" thread regarding commercially used horses in businesses: lesson programs, camps, trail riding outfits, etc. Kind of a "do you know what happens to the horses you ride/rode?"

      To his defense, Country said yes, he did know that some went to auction and most likely slaughter, and that did not bother him. Agree or disagree with his position on horse slaughter (I disagree strongly) but at least he had the knowledge and made his decision. The fact is, there are people who feel slaughter is fine and that it is how retired/unwanted horses should be disposed of. Others do not. This is not a "slaughter" thread per say.... it is a "people should make an informed decision about what horse businesses the support with their dollars" thread.

      JSwan: Do I think it is feasible for every program to have a retirement field/barn? No, I do not. Do I think it is feasible for these programs to do the right thing by these horses to the best of their ability (and, for me that includes keeping them out of the kill pen), YES, I do. This may involve everything from off site retirement to selling them to students or, yes, even euthanasia. And guess what? .... some people may not find euthanasia acceptable, and that's ok.... they should spend their dollars where they feel comfortable with what the business practice is. Just ASK THE QUESTIONS!

      I disagree with your "business is business" excuse for sending horses to auction/slaughter. As I stated in another thread, I am affiliated with a profitable equine business that still manages to do right by their horses -- and no, our lessons do not run $100 each. They are definitely not the cheapest you can find but our instruction, quality of horses, and yes, the fact that they are very well cared for, all combine to create value for the students. Could we make a few extra bucks if we scrimped on care or sent them to slaughter at the end of their working life --yes. Could we live with ourselves -- no. Again, it is a personal decision about how one runs their business.

      Country is a breeder, according to his website. He has been very forthcoming about his beliefs and, to his credit, very honest about how he conduct his business. He has stated that he does send horses to auction and, while he is not sure of what happens to them, understands that slaughter is very possible. At least he is honest. Would I buy a horse from him -- no, because I prefer to do business with people who share my values. But others, with the same knowledge would and do buy horses from him and at least he is honest, which tells me that he is operating within his own moral framework.

      That is all I am saying -- know what happens to these horses before you buy lessons, pack trips, camp sessions, trail rides, etc. and then make your decision. If you get an answer that seems fishy -- look harder. There are plenty of people out there who lie about what they do with their horses and I find that the most abhorent practice of all. Similarly, as we know, there are kill buyers who also lie ("this one is for the grandkids", etc.). Just beware and check things out and align yourself with businesses that share your opinion on how horses should be treated.

      Comment


      • #63
        Making life and business uncomfortable and no longer anonymous for those who fraudulently acquire horses and then ship to slaughter would be an excellent start.

        I've said it before, I'll say it again: people on this board seem to all know of people who have misrepresented themselves and taken the horses so purchased to meat auctions. Get their names out. On this BB. In your local horse paper. On a notecard at the feed store and tack shop. Auctions aren't illegal. Shipping out of the country for slaughter isn't illegal (except for CA). That's fine. If what they do is legal, put their blankety-blank names on billboards, with phone numbers and details of how many horses they shipped to slaughter this month, or last year.

        Let sellers know who they are and what exactly is going to happen to old Pokey after Mr. Auction Buyer gets hold of him. If it's such a noble danged business, it can certainly survive a little daylight and publicity.
        I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
        I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post

          JSwan: Do I think it is feasible for every program to have a retirement field/barn? No, I do not. Do I think it is feasible for these programs to do the right thing by these horses to the best of their ability (and, for me that includes keeping them out of the kill pen), YES, I do. This may involve everything from off site retirement to selling them to students or, yes, even euthanasia. And guess what? .... some people may not find euthanasia acceptable, and that's ok.... they should spend their dollars where they feel comfortable with what the business practice is. Just ASK THE QUESTIONS!

          I disagree with your "business is business" excuse for sending horses to auction/slaughter.
          I have never - not once in the ten years I have posted on this BB, stated that sending a horse to slaughter is "business is business".

          Understanding how and why horses end up at slaughter is not the same as agreeing with the decisions the led them there.

          And around here - lessons can run 100$ an hour. My old dressage instructor charged that much a few years ago - and he does not have a string of lesson horses.

          So again - try and understand what I am saying. It is not a pro or anti slaughter argument. In order to come up with solutions, we have to understand the challenges that face each type of owner.

          Euthanasia is always touted as the solution for unwanted horses - and I agree. But there are not legions of vets out there willing to kill unwanted horses. So that is not a solution. It may be part of one.

          Finding a good lesson barn that takes care of it's old horses - excellent idea. But is it a solution? It can only be part of one - and that one is delicate because many people shop based on price. And in many parts of the US, it's expensive to keep even one horse - much less 5 or 10 not in work.

          I'm asking that people expand their horizons a little - and think about what other people in other parts of the country have to deal with, go through, and how they live.

          And though I am not opposed to slaughter, neither am I supportive of it being used as a dumping ground. So please stop assuming that.
          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
          -Rudyard Kipling

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by JSwan View Post
            I have never - not once in the ten years I have Finding a good lesson barn that takes care of it's old horses - excellent idea. But is it a solution? It can only be part of one - and that one is delicate because many people shop based on price. And in many parts of the US, it's expensive to keep even one horse - much less 5 or 10 not in work.

            And though I am not opposed to slaughter, neither am I supportive of it being used as a dumping ground. So please stop assuming that.
            Dunno, I live in an expensive part of the country, and my trainer keeps and retires all her school horses (or has them go to her students' barns as companions, which is how I got one). Her barn is also one of the most affordable around ($25 for a kid's hour-long group lesson -- the norm is more like $50 here). So it can be done (though I think your point is a good one).

            But even if a green person asks the right question -- how often do you think they will get an honest or straightforward answer from a shady barn?? I doubt many trainers will say "oh, we send them off to auction!". They are more apt to say something like "we take care of them" or "we find good homes for them". How is a new rider going to really learn what's going on?
            https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
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            Comment


            • #66
              What is stopping dogs and cats from being slaughtered and shipped to other countries? The law, its illegal.
              Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

              Comment


              • #67
                BTW theres nothing wrong with selling at auctions I've sold 100's of horses at them from here in Mn. down to Tx. and most states in between, also the Dakotas and Mt. theres 1000's sold at them every month. Does anyone actually beleive we haul weanlings and yearlings 1000's of miles to sell for a few bucks they bring at slaughter?

                Educate yourselfs on selling horses at auctions many bring 5 figures at sales each month.
                Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by county View Post
                  BTW theres nothing wrong with selling at auctions I've sold 100's of horses at them from here in Mn. down to Tx. and most states in between, also the Dakotas and Mt. theres 1000's sold at them every month. Does anyone actually beleive we haul weanlings and yearlings 1000's of miles to sell for a few bucks they bring at slaughter?

                  Educate yourselfs on selling horses at auctions many bring 5 figures at sales each month.

                  As you've written ad nauseam. So much that I'm wondering who you're trying to convince.

                  BTW, it's "yourselves".

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Obviously there are different types of "auctions" -

                    I worked for a consigment at the Keeneland sales for years and if the horses you took to the ring during the first few days didn't bring $1,000,000 or more it was a disappointment and possibly a RNA!

                    I think we are all talking about the auctions the kill buyers frequent which is not a place you would haul your horse unless it is ok to send it to slaughter.

                    Its not the selling process that is the problem, only the buyers and sellers motives that are at issue.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by county View Post
                      What is stopping dogs and cats from being slaughtered and shipped to other countries? The law, its illegal.
                      So obviously some people have a problem with Seasame Kitty?? Well there are people who have issues with Filly Mignon so why can't there be laws against that too??

                      Some people see more than $$$$$$$ when they look at horses and people who do not want their horse eaten should have their wishes respected by those who want to make a buck in a sale.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        When someone misrepresents themselves and you are in a bind, you want to trust them. Auction or not, it's a risk.


                        Originally posted by KnKShowmom View Post
                        Obviously there are different types of "auctions" -

                        I worked for a consigment at the Keeneland sales for years and if the horses you took to the ring during the first few days didn't bring $1,000,000 or more it was a disappointment and possibly a RNA!

                        I think we are all talking about the auctions the kill buyers frequent which is not a place you would haul your horse unless it is ok to send it to slaughter.

                        Its not the selling process that is the problem, only the buyers and sellers motives that are at issue.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by county View Post
                          BTW theres nothing wrong with selling at auctions I've sold 100's of horses at them from here in Mn. down to Tx. and most states in between, also the Dakotas and Mt. theres 1000's sold at them every month. Does anyone actually beleive we haul weanlings and yearlings 1000's of miles to sell for a few bucks they bring at slaughter?

                          Educate yourselfs on selling horses at auctions many bring 5 figures at sales each month.
                          Country:

                          Gonna be honest here. I don't know a whole lot about auctions since I don't sell my horses and certainly would not do so at auction. Why? Because an auction is a place where a horse is sold to the highest bidder, regardless of who they are. Maybe you can place a minimum that might at least put a horse out of the reach of the kill buyers, but I don't know. It's definitely not for me.

                          Do I think there are high end auctions out there? Yes, I do. But do I also think there is some sort of "clean up" process for those that don't sell and their owners choose not to take home, and I would be willing to bet that it probably involves kill buyers. Maybe not at that specific auction location but I bet it's there somewhere.

                          Do I think you drive 1,000's miles to take weanlings and yearlings to a slaughter auction? .... no. You strike me as too business savvy for that. But I am guessing you have sent weanlings or yearlings to slaughter closer to home.

                          Why do I think this? Because you have been honest about your feelings on slaughter. You feel that it is a humane ending for an non-useful horse. No matter how good your breeding practices are (and honestly, I am guessing that you are a very knowledgeable person who has good practices), there are always the ones that don't make it. Maybe they have a birth defect or some other reason that they are not marketable. With your beliefs, I am guessing that those get sent to slaughter. Am I correct?

                          The fact of the matter is that all types, ages, and breeds of horses are slaughtered. I have seen pregnant mares with last year's foal by there side in the kill pen. Weanlings, Yearlings, and everything else goes to slaughter... and yes, I believe a good chunk of auctions (if not most) have some tie to slaughter. It just follows the auction system. There always has to be a buyer..... and at the end of the line is the kill buyer.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Some food for thought. I found this on another horse BB I visit infrequently. I'll bet this person is anti-slaughter, too.

                            Nothing like playing ostrich about where a high risk horse is likely to end up:

                            Hey guys! Well, we went to our closest horse auction last night, and we took a quarter horse that my cousin had with us to sale. This horse was buck wild! She was built like a dagg-on tank though!! But we took her over there and a gent bought her for a whole $100 dollars! Woo-hoo! But she was too much for my aunt to handle, so we were looking for another for her to have, and we ended up buying a 3 coming 4 year old TWH Palomino, pretty as a picture. She's smoooooth gaited, racking barefoot, pretty goodsized, not sure on how tall really. Gentle ole thing. I was the guinea pig of course, since I'm the onlyother person in the group who rides gaited horses. I was the person who rode first to see how she was going to be. So I hopped up there and she was a darling! Then we looked around a little more, and decided to go back and get her, and my aunt only had to pay 300 for her, it was 400 but we had 100 from the horse they sold. Horses around here are going dirt cheap, because hay is so scarce people can't afford them! I swear to you, a little full stock quarter horse about 4 years old went for $10! That's right $10 dollars!!!! I couldn't believe it!!!!!!!!!

                            So is there anyone here who thinks the "gent" who bought this horse wasn't a kill buyer? Anyone?

                            I'm not vilifying the man who bought the horse because business is business, but the callous way the owner threw this horse away to get a better one and bragged about it, is what appalls me.

                            People seriously wonder how Harry wound up where he did? I don't.
                            Homeopathy claims water can cure you since it once held medicine. That's like saying you can get sustenance from an empty plate because it once held food.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I have really begun to see the light about the whole slaughter thing. Its getting hot around here again. My dogs are now so old they require air conditioning even when I am fine with just a fan. AC is expensive and I am short on cash.

                              I hear there is a lab around here that pays $40 for adult dogs. I could sure use $40 more then I would like to spend $200 to have them PTS, plus I would save on dog food and ac, so WWYD? Obviously the old dogs can't be sold to anyone else and there are wayyyy too many nice young dogs at the shelter, so if they are gonna die anyway, why can't I get some cash?

                              These dogs have never worked a day in their lives or brought me any money. Don't I deserve to get something back before its too late for all the money I have spent on them? If a profit making animal is OK to sell why not my lazy useless dogs?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by equinelaw View Post
                                I have really begun to see the light about the whole slaughter thing. Its getting hot around here again. My dogs are now so old they require air conditioning even when I am fine with just a fan. AC is expensive and I am short on cash.

                                I hear there is a lab around here that pays $40 for adult dogs. I could sure use $40 more then I would like to spend $200 to have them PTS, plus I would save on dog food and ac, so WWYD? Obviously the old dogs can't be sold to anyone else and there are wayyyy too many nice young dogs at the shelter, so if they are gonna die anyway, why can't I get some cash?

                                These dogs have never worked a day in their lives or brought me any money. Don't I deserve to get something back before its too late for all the money I have spent on them? If a profit making animal is OK to sell why not my lazy useless dogs?
                                No, no, no not Albert! I'll take him.

                                But I have to wonder: Here's a lesson horse who was loved and petted by little girls who wanted him as their own. And then he is given or sold to what his owner thought would be a good home. He ends up frightened and confused at an auction. (See the thread where someone on coth rescued a horse at auction and dealt with the kill buyer who told her the horse would kill her, as the horse was terrified and running around and had been injured in the crowded paddocks.) He is then loaded on a truck, packed in with horses slipping and falling and terrified. He is off-loaded and goes up the shute into the slaughterhouse where he can smell the blood. some horses try to back up but are shocked, and some horses are "downers" and are dragged into the slaughterhouse. He is either hit in the head or "bolted", and while still thrashing, his throat is cut (gotta get all that blood out), and is slung up by one leg, still twitching. Are his last thoughts confusion or terror or pain, or all of these things? He sure isn't thinking about the little girls who petted him and loved him.
                                Better to euth them while you are holding them that on have that happen.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  ROTFLMAO Always have an English lesson at least once a day, ever notice they don't give them to anti slaughter people though?

                                  If someone doesn't want to sell their horse to slaughter by all means don't do so no ones ever said anyone should.

                                  Same thing goes for selling at an auction, don't want to sell there then don't. The problem comes when others have decided to force their wants onto everyone one.

                                  BTW BabyGreen do you notice anyone else saying anything more then once? Or is that actually the problem you have?
                                  Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    SevenDogs you would be wrong I've never sent any weanlings or yearlings to slaughter theres no money in it plus they haven't paid for slaughter horses that small for years.
                                    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      BTw i've seen foals with mares in kill pens also but the foals don't go to slaughter. In fact only about 40% of the horses bought by kill buyers here go to slaughter the rest are sold as riders, breeders, what ever makes a profit.,

                                      I've seen many many more calfs with cows in kill pens they don't go to slaughter either. Foals and calfs just aren't big enough. The key is amount of meat.
                                      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by county View Post
                                        BTw i've seen foals with mares in kill pens also but the foals don't go to slaughter. In fact only about 40% of the horses bought by kill buyers here go to slaughter the rest are sold as riders, breeders, what ever makes a profit.

                                        I've seen many many more calfs with cows in kill pens they don't go to slaughter either. Foals and calfs just aren't big enough. The key is amount of meat.
                                        Ok. so you are saying that the foals, weanlings, yearlings, and calves that end up in the slaughter pen, don't go to slaughter ... then what happens to them? Perhaps some are sold as future riding or breeding horses but certainly not all. If there was a large enough market for that, they would be sold directly to those buyers at the auction.

                                        The kill buyer is the ultimate profit motivated business person. He/She may not target these younger horses to buy for slaughter for the reason you mentioned, but they have to have some sort of "disposal" process for those that don't sell. I find it hard to believe that those youngsters aren't just shoved on the slaughter truck to get rid of them. They may not bring a big profit, but it gets rid of them.

                                        I guess I don't understand the "they aren't sent to slaughter because there isn't enough meat" theory since we slaughter calves for veal all the time and there is a market for calf liver, calf skin, etc?

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Veal has to be fed a certain way before its veal. What happens to young stock? Its sold to buyers that want them. Feeding a foal or yearling to slaughter weight doesn't make a profit. The slaughter plants no longer pay anything for them and haven't for years theres way more full size horses to choose from with the glut of horses we have. Why take up space in a load with young stock that bring no money when you can load full size horses you can buy for next to nothing if not free?
                                          Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                          Comment

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