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One Eyed Harry's Thread

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  • #41
    There are laws against rape, murder, theft and etc. and we can't stop these crimes from occurring but we discourage more of it by having laws so that we can prosecute violators and put them behind bars so those we catch can be put away. So if there is a law against horse slaughter and someone snubs their nose at the law and chooses to attempt to take horses to slaughter anyway, it's on them if they get caught. Most of the time, sooner or later people get caught. Circumventing the law may be temporarily effective but as I understand it, there is some record keeping of horses slaughtered so down the road this should come back to bite them on the butt. As I see it, we have nothing to lose by trying since at this time so many thousands of horses are already going to slaughter, why not have a law, enforceable or not, it's a start. If the American people want horse slaughter to end, they have that right to ask Congress to pass a bill and we have the right to ask the President to sign it. I don't see what the issue is here. How about a referendum vote?



    Originally posted by arabhorse2 View Post
    Lori, county isn't encouraging anyone to break the law, just saying that it's unenforceable, and the people buying and shipping these animals know it.

    He used California as a shining example. California has banned the sale of horses to slaughter/kill buyers. Those sales haven't stopped or even slowed down, even though California law says they're now illegal.

    If the U.S. passes an export ban, it'll be the same thing; people will find ways to circumvent it because it's virtually unenforceable.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
      Thank you for sharing. There are MANY good folks out there who do the right thing and BeastieSlave is correct that they aren't generally publicized. I would just like to see those that do the right thing rewarded.
      I agree. The first barn I rode at had a retirement complex...paddocks and barns, the works. Some of the horses were the owners retired schoolies and some were old guys she rescued. I understand that not everyone can afford such a set-up but some that can, do. I used to take the bus to the barn every night after school and walk down the long driveway. I remember coming around the bend and up the hill and seeing the backhoe out and getting that sinking feeling knowing one of the oldies was gone. That woman was such a true horseman and class act. I couldn't have had a better introduction to the horse world and I am glad that all she taught me over the years is still with me today. I like to think of those years and her when I hear stories like Harry's to remind me that good people do still exist.
      "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

      Comment


      • #43
        Not everyone agrees for sure. But we all have the same right to voice out opinions.

        Betrayal is betrayal no matter who does it to whom.



        Originally posted by arabhorse2 View Post
        Not everyone thinks selling horses to slaughter is a bad or evil thing.

        I do think selling pets down the river is troublesome, but then, I think dumping them at the animal shelters where they'll be euthed is also troublesome.

        Heck, we can't keep drugs and illegal immigrants OUT, so how are we supposed to keep livestock IN?

        Y'know, this argument has been beaten to death many times over, and I'm bowing out of this thread. Pro and anti folks will never see eye to eye, and I'm tired of arguing the same thing over and over.

        Arabhorse out.

        Comment


        • #44
          How did I know this would turn into a 'slaughter thread'?

          FWIW, those of you arguing about slaughter and what it means to the oldies, just remember you can't legislate morals!
          We've been discussing doing the right thing for the horses that have served us well - not how easy it is to send them to slaughter. If a person isn't going to do the right thing, whether or not slaughter is an option won't change the fact that the person isn't going to do the right thing!!!!
          Y'all ain't right!

          Comment


          • #45
            You had a wonderful example! I agree, all lesson programs should include a retirement field, the horses that have worked so hard for them deserve that or don't go into the business.



            Originally posted by sisu27 View Post
            I agree. The first barn I rode at had a retirement complex...paddocks and barns, the works. Some of the horses were the owners retired schoolies and some were old guys she rescued. I understand that not everyone can afford such a set-up but some that can, do. I used to take the bus to the barn every night after school and walk down the long driveway. I remember coming around the bend and up the hill and seeing the backhoe out and getting that sinking feeling knowing one of the oldies was gone. That woman was such a true horseman and class act. I couldn't have had a better introduction to the horse world and I am glad that all she taught me over the years is still with me today. I like to think of those years and her when I hear stories like Harry's to remind me that good people do still exist.

            Comment


            • #46
              For those barns that have retirement homes for all the horses - how much do you pay for lessons?

              What is the suburban/urban lesson barn supposed to do? Purchase vast acreage in the country?

              How much are land prices? How is the cost of care of those horses handled? In every other business increased costs are passed on to the consumer.

              I'm not talking about slaughter here - nor am I trying to justify a decision to send a horse there.

              But I think some of you are living in la la land. It's obvious many of you have never run a full time business or operated a real farm. It's fricking EXPENSIVE - and can be more so the closer you are to an urban area.

              If a lesson facility HAS the acreage - the excess acreage and feed and hay prices are low - that might permit an owner to keep retirees. Or at least a few retirees.

              For a small lesson facility near an urban area - in which land prices are up to 100K for one acre..... combined with high hay prices, feed prices - that may just not be possible.

              And I'm sorry - but many people shop based on price. How many of you are paying over 100$ per lesson? If you had a 15 year old daughter that wanted to take lessons - but it cost over 400$ per month at Barn A, but 150 a month at Barn B..... which choice would you make?

              Be honest. The truth is that most people are in horses for pleasure - and most are on a budget. Particularly with kids that seem to bounce from one activity to another.

              Yes, there are many facilities that have the land and facilities that support a decision to keep retirees. Other owners might be able to find homes from some school horses.

              But others - they can't. It's just not possible. Maybe if they charged the students more... but then they'd lose students.

              Everyone has to eat, pay the light bills, pay for insurance, and pay for horse care. We all know how expensive owning ONE horse can be (depending on where we live in the US)

              Try being reasonable and see this from a wider perspective - and think about the fact that in many part of the US - endless verdant expanses full of retired horses simply isn't possible. What would you have people do? There is no one "right" answer.
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


              • #47
                Ugh, sorry JSwan, I usually think you are spot-on but in this instance I respectfully have to disagree.

                I am not anti-slaughter because in the current situation it is a necessary evil. In a perfect world I would be anti-slaughter and anti-euthanasia of 100s and 1000s of perfectly good cats and dogs every day. Sadly, we live in a far from perfect world.

                I get that $hit happens to people. They get injured, they get sick and are forced to make unimaginably tough decisions to survive. I don't envy the situation. Where I struggle is with the majority of people that live well beyond their means. North Americans are very guilty of this. How many people file for bankruptcy every day only to get themselves in the same situation down the road? If you are only responsible for yourself then do what you will. When you have dependants of the equine, canine or human variety you have an added responsibility that you must take into consideration. To me this means being fiscally responsible and planning for events which may impact their existance. I guess I am an idealistic idiot but I just think that if you can't afford to be in the game and play it well...get out. I would love to have 10 horses and 5 dogs and maybe I could if they were all healthy and usefull for their entire lives but I know that is not the reality of owning animals. They get sick, they become old, they lose their usefullness and then become a financial burden. It isn't a matter of "if" it is a matter of "when". I can't be the only human who sees this reality.

                This has gotten OT but I think that most of us aren't condemming the folks that are victims of circumstance and forced to make the tough decisions. It is the greedy, the uncaring and the stupid that make me angry. Again, I don't care what they do to themselves but when their poor decisions impact a kid, a dog, a horse or whatever I really struggle to justify their bad behaviour.

                I live in a very horsey part of Canada and could give you a very long list of people in the horse business that shouldn't be. They are a disaster in the making. They insist on taking on more and more financial burden when they haven't been able to be successful on a small scale yet. Who will lose when the $hit finally hits the fan? My guess is the horses. I know not everyone can be as fortunate as my first coach to come from enough money to support her ideal operation but my guess is that if more people were in the business for the love of the game and not greedy they could find a way.

                I offer no solutions because it is our society and human behaviour that need "fixing". You can't legislate that.
                "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

                Comment


                • #48
                  I totally agree if someone is breaking the law they should be fined and or jailed but theres no law on the books banning selling slaughter horses out of country. And the propsed bill does not ban selling horses out of country so theres no law that would be broken. I also agree people should do the " right " thing and IMO selling livestock for slaughter is a " right " thing if the owner so chooses to do so..
                  Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    To me, the right answer is to put the money and maintence into keeping them sound as long as possible. Which makes each horse you have more profitable. When the horse is no longer sound enough to suitable for even W/T beginner lessons you have a couple options. Either set up an area for him as 'retirement' board, pay to board him someplace else, or feed him a 5lb bag of carrots and take him on his last walk out to the field where the vet is waiting.

                    I'm sure there's a couple people out there that would love to have adopted their old schoolies and taken really good care of them, like a majority of us on this thread. But thats the problem, there's 20 people with one space each and 200 horses a year that need it. I have no problem with selling a sound usable horse, but like it's said time and time again, if you don't care about him enough to take care of him anymore, or even if you care and can't afford it, WTH makes you think somebody else will?

                    Whether the horse is 5 or 35, if they're not even W/T sound and usable, what kind of options are really out there for them? There's way more horses than good homes out there, and fixing that is how we fix the slaughter problem. If we work to end backyard beeders from producing really really low end stock, we can cut down on the excess of horses. Which will drive prices up, and out of the KB's price ranges. They won't pay more than a couple hundred for them because they can't make money if they do! So really the solution is to make horses in the USA worth more than $500.
                    You can't fix stupid.... but you can breed it!

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Its a good therory but not realistic slaughter prices go up and down demending on demand and supply slaughter horses at one time when demand was high and supply low brought .90 to $1.00 a lb live weight. The demand for food including horse meat is never going to stop same as beef or any species of livestock eaten so your always going to have a demand for meat. You'll price people out of owning horses before you price people out of eating.
                      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by sisu27 View Post
                        Ugh, sorry JSwan, I usually think you are spot-on but in this instance I respectfully have to disagree.
                        But I was not referring to slaughter or bad business practices at all. I agree there are dirtbags in the horse industry that pretty much need to be taken out back and shot. I have ZERO tolerance for abuse or shady deals.

                        Several people stated that a good lesson program would have a field for retired horses. (I'm paraphrasing but you get the picture)

                        I agree. A lesson barn should have a place for lay ups and do their best to make sure a lesson horse is euthanized. I'm not gung ho about sending horses to what is sure to be a date with the knacker. I UNDERSTAND why it happens but that does not mean I stand there and cheer it on.

                        My point was that "retirees" may not be possible for all lesson programs - and we need to try and think less parochially about solutions.

                        Where I live it is super easy to retire a horse - any horse. There is plenty of land and keeping a retiree isn't too horribly expensive. So.... a lesson program may not operate under the same constraints as a lesson program in a more urban area. Each program has different challenges and obstacles to overcome - but I'd not call the decisions "good" or "bad". But an urban/suburban program may simply not be able to keep any unsound horses at all. Ever. If they put them down - many people would consider that horrible - just as horrible as sending them to the knacker.

                        What any retiree needs is land, feed and vet/farrier care. At the end of their useful life - I have no problem with these horses being euthanized.

                        Try finding a vet willing to euthanize an unwanted but healthy horse. Vets have feelings too and it can't be easy to euthanize animals as part of your job. It's certainly not easy for slaughterhouse workers and they don't have to deal with a crying owner.

                        My comments are not intended to support a pro or anti slaughter view. Merely that in order to focus on solutions, we need to consider what challenges owners and business owners face. Solutions that workable, reasonable, and balance the needs and desires of horse owners/horse industry - AND the welfare of horses.

                        Insisting that the only "good" lesson program keeps its retirees isn't helpful in coming up with a workable solution. It merely puts us all into "good" camps and "bad" camps.

                        The people that come up with solutions are in the middle. I'm in the middle and am tired of the pro and anti camps that are more interested in touting their so called moral superiority - than in workable solutions.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Back ON-TOPIC (yes pick your chin up off the floor- I'm not going to comment on pro or anti slaughter)

                          I took lessons throughout the seventies and eighties. I know where a good share of the schoolies I rode and formerly leased/owned horses ended up too. Unfortunetly "the truck" was way more common than it is now. Likewise horses didn't end up at the auction as the 'first' stop as it has now commonplace.

                          As a kid I never thought to even *ask* until one of the lesson ponies had passed from colic. I think I was around 8 or so? Then it kind of dawned on me that schoolies DO die eventually just like our cats and dogs and hamsters and goldfish...

                          Anyway...sending a horse "off to the glue factory" was passed as just part of horse biz. That was then this is now and now is vastly different.

                          I'm one of those folks who pays attention and asks about a trainer or barn position in the subject and what do they do with their horses.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Well, I never started this thread as a moral judgment or commentary.

                            I have no interest in passing judgment on Harry's former owner, I don't know the circumstances so I can't comment. The thread just broke my heart because he is the same age and looks similar in the picture to one of our golden oldies.

                            Ours retire. I personally couldn't imagine shipping an old horse who has basically given a lifetime of work, but that is how I feel.

                            I guess I just see too many kids and adults over the years who never seem to see these wonderful beasties as anything but something to cart them around. It bugs me sometimes when we have folks who have ridden here for years and then one day instead of walking by a sweet old face who has always whickered at them when they walk in the barn, there is just an empty stall and they don't even notice.

                            So I guess that was the point in my muddling way I was trying to make.
                            \"Tomorrow is a new day with no mistakes in it.\" Anne of Green Gables

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I learned to ride at lesson barn and have many fond memories of the horses which gave me my start. I can still name quite a few and good or bad, I came away with something from riding each of them. The only sad thoughts are that the barn went out of business shortly after I left for college and I know where most of my friends probably went. The sad thing was that was were most of them came from, so while some had more useful years because they were 'rescued" from the dealer, they ultimately ended up back there.

                              And that is were the pro/anti/o.m.g slaughter thing is a problem for me. I don't have a problem eating meat, I can go to my friend's cattle farm and not shed a tear for a single animal there, especially when I have to help round them up when they go through a fence at dusk. They do not have names or personalities and have not taught anyone anything because they are L-I-V-E-S-T-O-C-K and I have no ill feelings for the people who haul them to the livestock market and bid on them for slaughter.

                              Horses are also classified as livestock, and I realize for business/tax purposes that is necessary to make a living, but at some point I think the system needs to be revisited. Cows, pigs, chickens etc are raised for the purpose of being slaughtered for food and should be classified as primary livestock.

                              Horses should be classified as secondary livestock, to allow for the benefits of the business aspect but with different care standards to minimize neglect (most horses don't fare well when cared for like a cow) and a safety net for the ones not intended for food. If someone is raising their horses with the intent for slaughter, then let them be in a herd, have no names and have them classified differently than the horse raised for showing, racing, breeding, etc and ends up in the slaughter pen braided, with shoes on, wearing a halter with I Love My Horse on it as we have heard from other threads. I personally know of several people who sold their horses to supposedly honest people only to have them flipped into feedlots. Ignorance is no excuse but maybe people wouldn't feel so hostile towards dealers if they dealt (honestly and ethically) with animals intended for food, instead of ones who have fallen through the cracks.

                              It is also time to stop making it a vets responsibilty to put down healthy, unwanted horses. This should go to a licensed individual, trained and regulated in practice by the USDA and whose prices would be more in line with the budget of the average horse owner. If a professional would be able to provide the same peaceful end at a better price, then maybe owners would have more choices than sending them down the road.

                              Finally, I think that people need to see past their own needs when it comes to their horses. I have always been a firm believer that the old schoolies make great young riders who will grow up to train the young horses who will one day grow up to be great old schoolies. It is the cycle of life in the horse world, but so many times that cycle is broken when the Big Eq horse (sorry, just an example) isn't cutting it anymore and is shipped off rather than worked down the ladder. My daughter learned so many things from an old campaigner that someone had pulled out of the slaughter pen he was sent to because his stifles were shot and he couldn't handle the big fences anymore. But he packed her around her first shows at 2' like the solid citizen that he was and gave her a great start to what will hopefully be a long and successful riding career. And that is how it should be. Period.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I boarded and rode at a barn in the suburbs of NY. They are closed on Mondays, which is when the school horses get turned out, paired up by compatibility. And they retire their horses in expensive NY. Granted, they get retired at Mom/Pop farms upstate, but when I was looking for cheaper board for my pasture puff, I boarded my guys with the retired schoolies at one of those places.
                                So, it is possible and some barns do it, even in the burbs of NY.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                                  But I was not referring to slaughter or bad business practices at all. I agree there are dirtbags in the horse industry that pretty much need to be taken out back and shot. I have ZERO tolerance for abuse or shady deals.

                                  Several people stated that a good lesson program would have a field for retired horses. (I'm paraphrasing but you get the picture)

                                  I agree. A lesson barn should have a place for lay ups and do their best to make sure a lesson horse is euthanized. I'm not gung ho about sending horses to what is sure to be a date with the knacker. I UNDERSTAND why it happens but that does not mean I stand there and cheer it on.

                                  My point was that "retirees" may not be possible for all lesson programs - and we need to try and think less parochially about solutions.

                                  Where I live it is super easy to retire a horse - any horse. There is plenty of land and keeping a retiree isn't too horribly expensive. So.... a lesson program may not operate under the same constraints as a lesson program in a more urban area. Each program has different challenges and obstacles to overcome - but I'd not call the decisions "good" or "bad". But an urban/suburban program may simply not be able to keep any unsound horses at all. Ever. If they put them down - many people would consider that horrible - just as horrible as sending them to the knacker.

                                  What any retiree needs is land, feed and vet/farrier care. At the end of their useful life - I have no problem with these horses being euthanized.

                                  Try finding a vet willing to euthanize an unwanted but healthy horse. Vets have feelings too and it can't be easy to euthanize animals as part of your job. It's certainly not easy for slaughterhouse workers and they don't have to deal with a crying owner.

                                  My comments are not intended to support a pro or anti slaughter view. Merely that in order to focus on solutions, we need to consider what challenges owners and business owners face. Solutions that workable, reasonable, and balance the needs and desires of horse owners/horse industry - AND the welfare of horses.

                                  Insisting that the only "good" lesson program keeps its retirees isn't helpful in coming up with a workable solution. It merely puts us all into "good" camps and "bad" camps.

                                  The people that come up with solutions are in the middle. I'm in the middle and am tired of the pro and anti camps that are more interested in touting their so called moral superiority - than in workable solutions.

                                  Thank you, turns out I don't disagree with you afterall .

                                  I think a few things need to be addressed before we can even begin to make a dent in the current situation: affordable euthanasia/disposal options, enforcement of any and all laws pertaining to the humane transport/handling/processing of livestock and breeders need to take some responsibility in all this and quit producing in the numbers they are (again that just reeks of greed and stupidity to me). These seem like more attainable goals to me as compared to retirement homes for every old horse on the continent and banning slaughter. None of this would have helped Harry avoid his fate though.
                                  "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    I think it comes back to the problem that some people think the horse is somehow worthy of being placed above other species of animals. And if someone wants to do that by all means do so just don't force others to think your way. I have a herd of cows and they all have names just as my herd of horses do. I keep my cows exactly like my horses, my brood cows have 3 round bale feeders they get hay in. My brood mares have 3 round bale feeders they get hay in. The hay came off the same feilds, baled the same days, kept in the same hay shed. They each get fed some corn silage each day, came from the same feild and out of the same storage bag.

                                    They graze the same pastures with they young mares in one pasture cows in another. They get wormed with the same wormer if one species or the other needs Banimine, Oxytocin, Lutlys what ever it comes out of the same bottle. The show horses ride in the same trailer as the show cattle do pulled by the same truck. The cattle have personalties just like horses have them, they feel pain same as horses do, they love their young same as horses do, they have fears same as horses do.

                                    As I said if one wants to place the horse on some higher level then other animals by all means do so. But don't try and foce others to do the same or think theres something wrong if someone doesn't.

                                    And at least try to educate yourself about other species of livestock.
                                    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

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                                    • #58
                                      I agree with you county. In my above post I mention livestock and breeders...not horses and horse breeders. I think all living things deserve to be treated with compassion regardless of species. I am not a vegetarian, I wear leather...I just think we owe it to the animals that provide for us to make their often short lives as free of discomfort and distress as possible. It is the least we can do as the most evolved thing on the planet, yes?
                                      "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

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                                      • #59
                                        I've never said anything differently but placing the horse as a different then other livestock? No they all deserve the same IMO
                                        Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

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                                        • #60
                                          I have helped my friend for years with HER cattle operation - feeding, shots, worming, calving (dead and alive ones), and helping when the damn things got out - the whole nine yards. She didn't have names for them and we didn't miss them when they left.

                                          I also helped her with her horses - the two did not share fields, barns, feed, hay, meds, or trailers.

                                          Never have seen a cow with the brains or personality equal to a horse, but I guess it how you view and take care of your horses. If livestock is livestock, and everything should end up on the table at the end of its life then thats fine but the majority of us view our horses much more like we view our cats and dogs.

                                          If we are going to send the overpopulation of horses to Europe then what is stopping us from sending the overpopulation of dogs and cats to Asia or some starving country????

                                          Its how you view a horse's purpose in life that makes this issue so hot.

                                          And for what its worth, I love beef, pork and poultry but would not eat horse because thats not what it was bred for and to me, it is a violation of our relationship with the horse.

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