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Spinoff...When does a green horse become a made horse?

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  • Spinoff...When does a green horse become a made horse?

    I was reading the "green vs made" thread, and it got me wondering...where do you draw the line between green and made? I have an OTTB that I've had for a few years, I took him to his first event last November (beg novice), he's got most of his basics down. However, I still consider him green. I just thought it'd be interesting to see what everyone's opinions were....discuss!

  • #2
    Usually it just sneaks up on you... one day you're riding your horse and you think, Darn, he's really well trained... and there you go... he's no longer a greenie. Now to be truely 'made" I think you have to be confident that you can put anyone (with in reason) on him and they can put in a passible effort at whatever the horse is trained to do without the risk of screwing the horse up.

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    • #3
      Agree with op, I had a lovely little gelding that stood like a rock for me to get on. I had other people I knew ride him and he was perfect. Put him up for sale, Buyers who SAID they could ride tried him out and after they jabbed him with their knee or their foot as they mounted, he no longer was so happy to stand like a rock and we had to go back and rework that. He would have seemed made to all my friends, but go down several levels and he wasn't. Something I hadn't really thought of when I was training him...people unable to mount correctly.

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      • #4
        I was always wondering about this...specially with upper level prospects.

        I helped sold a 6 yr. old gelding, pretty solid at 2'3-2'6. Working at 3' and occationally would get lead changes with me (he was too naturally off balance for anyone else to get them)

        I still called him a prospect as I was working him up to 3'6 in my mind, yet we sold him as a finished 2'6 horse (disclosing the lead change issue, which buyer was fine about) Everyone who got on him commented on how well train he was with his flat work - which was when I knew he wasn't "green" anymore.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by fourmares View Post
          Now to be truely 'made" I think you have to be confident that you can put anyone (with in reason) on him and they can put in a passible effort at whatever the horse is trained to do without the risk of screwing the horse up.

          agreed.

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          • #6
            I think fourmares description was good. And I definitely agree that it often sneaks up on you

            I've had horses that I thought were "green" their entire lives, and others that a lot of people would have considered "made" in a very short time. Brains sure can have a lot to do with it.

            And level of riding/showing obviously means something too. I still consider my AO Jumper mare "green" over the bigger fences since she still doesn't always know what to do with her body. But she's a completely made horse in the sense that anyone anywhere anytime could ride her, and even a total novice could jump her around a 3'6" course or do a passable first or second level dressage test on her.
            __________________________________
            Flying F Sport Horses
            Horses in the NW

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            • #7
              When he can generally be counted on to not act like an idiot in spite of overwhelming idiot-invitating circumstances. For some horses, that's never.

              When a "green" horse rises to the occasion in a big way, we are surprized and count ourselves lucky. When a "made" horse rises to the occasion, we would be surprized if he didn't. Agree with the observation that it "sneaks up on you". The conversion builds up over time, but the realization that it's happened comes all of a sudden. After the Super Green Greenies have passed, you drift pleasantly along, then one day, Something Happens and the horse rises to the occasion -- and you realize that this doesn't surprize you.

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              • #8
                I think another clue is how the horse is after a lay off. PNW, I'v had "evergreens" too-the ones that you have to give a remedial course to after 10 days off. If they can retain the performance after some down time, I would think that's a sign of a "made" horse.

                I did have a horse off the track you had to saddle break again if he was let go more than a week-but even that was predictable. After the initial rodeo moment, he was his reliable self.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by talkofthetown View Post
                  I was reading the "green vs made" thread, and it got me wondering...where do you draw the line between green and made? I have an OTTB that I've had for a few years, I took him to his first event last November (beg novice), he's got most of his basics down. However, I still consider him green. I just thought it'd be interesting to see what everyone's opinions were....discuss!
                  a horse can be limited by its owner rider as to how much education your prepared to give the horse - take a look at what you wrote thats limiting his and yourself so horse is made to how you work him hes not green by your standards but is green when taken out elsewhere as lack of knowledge then shows ie you say horse got most of the basics but whats basic to you?

                  you have had the horse a few years and done one show thats basic as in nil to never go to many so horse isnt going to know what to do becuase he takes his q's from you
                  so if your lack of knowledge and is baisc then so is his its not the horse thats green as such but more like the rider green in whats to be expected as lack the consistency of regular competion work or preparing the horse for competions so then they say
                  hes only got the basics
                  so whats basic to you at the events your trying to come somewhere and how have you
                  work the horse to be fit and ready to be sucessful in those events you are trying to do

                  so in conclusion the horse is made to what you expect of him via your own knowledge

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                  • #10
                    October 23rd.


                    (yes, I'm feeling silly and need a nap)

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
                      a horse can be limited by its owner rider as to how much education your prepared to give the horse - take a look at what you wrote thats limiting his and yourself so horse is made to how you work him hes not green by your standards but is green when taken out elsewhere as lack of knowledge then shows ie you say horse got most of the basics but whats basic to you?

                      you have had the horse a few years and done one show thats basic as in nil to never go to many so horse isnt going to know what to do becuase he takes his q's from you
                      so if your lack of knowledge and is baisc then so is his its not the horse thats green as such but more like the rider green in whats to be expected as lack the consistency of regular competion work or preparing the horse for competions so then they say
                      hes only got the basics
                      so whats basic to you at the events your trying to come somewhere and how have you
                      work the horse to be fit and ready to be sucessful in those events you are trying to do

                      so in conclusion the horse is made to what you expect of him via your own knowledge
                      gls, there was a lot involved with him having completed only one recognized event with me. I've taken him to local schooling shows, as well as endurance rides, camping trips, etc. There were things such as injuries he had to recover from, he was boarded almost an hour from my house for several months, and I had no car, so I couldn't ride very often. There's also the money..I took him to an event as soon as I could afford it.
                      But as far as my experience, I would definitely not call myself a green rider. However, that doesn't really matter, I don't think it's neccessary to defend all my "horsey" experience or accomplishments. I see your point, and I think in some cases it's very true. Just not in my case. I also agree that the definition of basics can change drastically from person to person. I was just wondering what people's opinions were, in general

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                      • #12
                        When the horse stands quietly at checks, doesn't bolt when the field reverses, and don't pass the Huntsman during a run.

                        Until then it's pretty miserable.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

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                        • #13
                          Oh, boy, there are lots of variables. Halfway through a trail ride last summer it occurred to me that my then-5 yo was 'made' for trails. Just going along, doing what he's been taught, including balancing properly on hills without prompting from me, coulda put my mother on him. But finished? Not by a long shot- they're never 'finished,' there is always something new you can teach a horse, or some skill that can be improved or perfected. That's part of the fun, for me, anyway.

                          For foxhunting, I really consider that I need 2-3 years to consider one well and truly 'made,' just because it takes that long, even hunting twice a week, for a horse to encounter most of the possible situations and learn to deal with them. On the other hand, the aforementioned 5 now 6 yo hunted a half dozen times last year, first flight, second flight, whipping in, taking my own line, and took to it like a duck to water, so I'd say he's pretty far along the 'made' scale.

                          And then again, 'made' for me might not equate to 'made' for everyone on the planet. Decades ago, when in college, I was assigned to take a new horse and test drive it to check out its suitability for beginner riders. Went like a champ for me. Problem was, I'm not a beginner rider- how does it do with someone who bangs the back or mouth or clinches with the legs- in this case, it turned out, not so good. So I do every now and then try to ride mine 'badly,' bounce, snatch, stiffen in the saddle, lean forward, etc just to gauge the reaction, I figure it's useful information down the road.

                          And then there was the time I hunted a horse of Bay Cockburn's. Bay bragged on him as made, had hunted a bunch of places, including Orange County, etc. Well, I'm still here, so I survived the day, but I can attest that 'made' for a crazy jump jockey is not necessarily 'made' to my tastes. Like when they eyeball the wings three strides out, because the horse ahead has turned left on landing. He was a nice horse though- his regular rider just didn't necessarily see the need to fill him in on certain details.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Horses anyone can ride
                            Years ago I worked for jumper trainer who bought and sold a lot of horses. The first time I went on a shopping trip with him we were looking for a safe, honest horse for a rider wanting to move up to the A/O jumpers...and this rider did not have a good eye for distances. So my boss told me, "Ok, gallop him up to that 4'6" oxer and find the worst distance you possibly can". Thank goodness, the horse we were trying was BROKE because the whole concept scared me to death!
                            Ristra Ranch Equestrian Jewelry

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                            • #15
                              A green horse is "made" when it will do it's rider's bidding when commanded the first time without resistance, muss, or fuss.

                              All the rest is commentary.

                              G.
                              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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                              • #16
                                I should write graysandbays quote down somewhere as I think it answers the question perfectly

                                When he can generally be counted on to not act like an idiot in spite of overwhelming idiot-invitating circumstances.

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                                • #17
                                  i have a 5 year old who i've trained by myself. I never realized how made he was into i brought him into a new barn. And was shocking the other owners and barn owner when i said he was 4. I think everything just clicks on days and its like okay i get it now. He's been off for a month and half from abcessed to needing chirco done, i've been on him 2 times since we found him sound on thursday and yesterday i rode him outside and he was perfect! He's a western pleasure horse and he was slow not running through my hands and not speeding up into i asked him to go, but i need to add this horse has no doubts that i'm his mom so i'm sure this helps. I tied a sled to him this winter how many other 5 years can you do that too? Or soak both front feet at the same time? lmao

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                                  • #18
                                    I think what fourmares said was dead on

                                    But to add...I consider my green horse made when I can get on him and he knows what I want from my cues alone, without me having to 'explain' it to him. For me it also means that I can haul him somewhere and he behaves himself, adjusts to new surroundings well, etc. But for different people it means different things. For a ranch horse in Colorado that will never have to be hauled anywhere, it can mean the horse will just pack around ranch guests without a fuss.

                                    To put it simply...to me, a horse is made when it starts taking care of you, vs. the other way around.
                                    Originally posted by barka.lounger
                                    u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

                                    we see u in gp ring in no time.

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                                    • #19
                                      When you can climb on without worrying about whether or not your life/health insurance is paid - sorry. Couldn't help it.

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                                      • #20
                                        A green/made = not for sale/for sale.

                                        It can be the same green horse with the same amount of training, but as soon as it hits the market, it is now "made".
                                        #JusticeForSunshine

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