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The Paul Valliere ad in the 11/15 Chronicle

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  • #41
    Thanks to everyone who helped to explain who pv is. How revolting and how can someone have such NERVE! But I suppose that explains why he does what he does. There are truly despicable humans in this world. Makes me want to retreat into a world of just animals.

    Texas sheetcake is almost as good as Mississippi Mud cake!


    • #42
      I was offended after the whole horse killings and PV being exposed to read that article last year about one of his older students, reading her rave about PV as a trainer.
      I still think the writer could have found someone else's student to write about.
      It is the only time I was disappointed in the COTH.
      But I don't have a clue why that article was written or printed. JMHO

      "Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"
      Starman Babies


      • #43
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
        I was offended after the whole horse killings and PV being exposed to read that article last year about one of his older students, reading her rave about PV as a trainer.
        I still think the writer could have found someone else's student to write about.
        It is the only time I was disappointed in the COTH.
        But I don't have a clue why that article was written or printed. JMHO

        Uh, maybe because the student was a noteworthy person worth writing about?

        I never read that partiuclar article and don't know who it was about, but it seems to me that if someone rode well enough and was successful enough to merit being noticed by the COTH, they should be able to thank whomever they like. Who you train with, for good OR for bad, shouldn't factor into that one iota.

        I'm not that familiar with the advertising side of things at COTH, and I don't know if they turn down ads, and for what reason.


        • #44
          For the sake of discussion, to those who are outraged, my questions would include:

          Are you ...

          1. Going to write a letter to the editor?

          2. Threaten to cancel or outright cancel your subscription?

          3. Stop distributing COTH (if, say, you own or operate a tack shop and it's available at your establishment)?

          4. Cease to participate in this online community? How do you think this bandwidth is paid for? Advertising dollars. And part of those may come from questionable characters.

          5. Do nothing -- just keep ranting about it?

          I agree that no one ever should forget what happened. I guess I'm just wondering, as we're on the third thread or so in the past few weeks, when the pages upon pages of outrage will turn into any action, what that action might be, and if that action is appropriate.

          Is saying, "I'd never train with him," really saying that much? Take me, for instance. He's several states away from where I live, I couldn't afford him, and I'm probably not good enough to ride on that level anyway. So me saying something like that is, essentially, absurd and empty. It makes me a lemming of sorts.

          I'm going to really dork out here but oh well ... I saw Sam Donaldson on a lecture tour a few years ago (that's right ... paid money to see Sam Donaldson ... and he ROCKED!) When someone asked Sam whom he admired most, he said George Will. And he said that because, as much as they differ from time to time, George had completely thought out his politics. He knew himself inside and out, Sam said. There was continuity to his behavior, right down to every last detail. The way he lived his life fell in line with his philosophies, according to Sam. That's such a lame example -- sorry -- but it's the only one I can think of to set up my (way too long-winded) questions.

          I guess what I'm wondering is, for anyone who is outraged, how much have you thought through your stance? Does it transcend empty threats (like mine) to never train with the guy or directly give him money? And if not, are you satisfied with that?

          Not pointing fingers, or I'd have to point a big fat one at myself for being wishy washy. Just looking to prompt a bit of a different discussion beyond the standard, "That's reprehensible!" Because that's pretty much written in stone.


          • #45
            ...and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses.

            Bingo! Mystery solved. The frightening thing is that 10 years will have passed in just four more years. He will be back.

            "Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"
            ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
            Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

            "Life is merrier with a terrier!"


            • #46
              Maybe he did not need to donate much.

              How many animals were in the world trade centers?

              It seems to me more people were affected then animals ,it's not as if it were a forrest fire in the middle of a game refuge or animal park!

              I may be way off base, but my reaction to the first ad was ,hmmmm was this an animal disaster? If not many animals were affected ,well how much donating would there be?

              Anyone have any thoughts my direction ,or am I just crazy to see a diffrent spin to this?


              • #47
                Can you say lawsuit?

                Sorry, but I am one that agrees with free speech.

                The same liberty that allows all of you to say what you do on this BB also allows anyone to take out an ad in COTH provided they pay the fees.

                Think about the helmet ad placed last year.

                They had every right to take it out.

                You may not agree with what he does or what he says, but he is a free man in a free country, as are you.

                And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.

                rant over

                and rockstarr - I have ridden with him and would again if I was in the same situation.

                Would I leave a horse in his care, probably not, but there are many other trainers that I would not leave my horses with either and many of them that I would never pay for a lesson from.


                • #48
                  Regarding the WTC, yes, there were lots of animals affected. The ASPCA was down there for a week or two rescuing animals trapped in apartments that were off limits (or whose owners simply weren't coming home [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] ), there were TONS of search and rescue dogs involved, etc.

                  Back when I USED [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] to work for an animal health care magazine, we did a slew of post 9-11 stories. You wouldn'ta thunk there'd be animal angles, but there were. Not sure there are many left NOW, but anyway...

                  And I have to say I agree with WC Princess. I'd rather a publication allow anyone who can pay for it to take out an ad, rather than have some sort of screening process by which someone would "qualify" to advertise. When you do that, you allow too much subjectivity into the mix.

                  I have heard of publications turning down ads based on their content -- the example I can recall is my college newspaper choosing TO run an ad that other college papers had turned down (something claiming the Holocaust didn't happen [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ), specifically because they felt they shouldn't deny those people an avenue to voice their opinion.

                  But I can't say that I've ever heard of a publication turning down an ad because of WHO was placing it... not saying it's never happened, but in my limited experience, I've never heard of it.


                  • #49
                    IMO, Paul keeps running these ads for two reasons:

                    One, he wants to schmooze people (especially the unknowing) into thinking he is a wonderful caring person when it comes to the welfare of animals in distress, so that when his 10 years are up, the newbies will welcome him with open arms for being "so wonderful" &lt;&lt;puking smilie&gt;&gt; [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img], and,

                    Two: to rub it in the AHSA/UsaEq's face that even though they've banned him because of his reprehensible acts, that there are enough people out there keeping him rolling in dough, who care more about winning than about the animals they ride, that they will do "whatever" it takes to win, including training with someone who is one level below pond scum. IMO. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]

                    ~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~


                    • #50
                      My Opinion. If PV really cared and felt sorry for what he had done, he would leave the horse world alone, and get a job selling cars or something else. I don't really think a tiger changes their stripes, and I would have a hard time believing he is sorry for anything other than getting caught. But even so, when you betray an animal like that, you have no business having anything to do with animals again for the rest of your life. Again, my opinion.

                      I also believe that anyone that would not want to puke if he was in the same air space, must be OK with killing animals if is suits their financial purpose, and they are also not ones I would choose to have contact with, or ever sell any of my horses to.

                      If PV (or Barney Ward, etc) could guarantee my horses would win every show they ever entered, they would not be welcome to breathe their airspace. I would prefer that my horses/kids never had any show future, than to degrade them by letting garbage come near.


                      Are We Having Fun Yet?


                      • #51
                        ..why not tell us what you REALLY think? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                        (By the way, I totally agree with you!)


                        • #52
                          Anyone know who "The Oxer Group" is? According to the Advertiser's Index they're the one's who placed the ad.

                          I'm staying out of the rest of this issue - it makes me sick. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]


                          • #53
                            And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.

                            And who might you be to decide that WCPrincess? Or does free speech not hold true for us?


                            • #54
                              but around Oct/Nov does anyone recall him taking out a smaller ad saying he was going to donate 1/2 of his profits from a few months to the animals of the WTC?

                              We start believin' now that we can be who we are. -Grease
                              You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith


                              • #55
                                Kryswyn - Yup! I believe you hit the nail on the head!

                                Rockstarr - yes, I will be penning a letter to COTH expressing my opinion on running the ad! I don't give a damn about free speech (sorry, but in this case I just DON'T) when it comes to this particular matter. Yes, I believe COTH should have not accepted the ad - I doubt it's absence would break the bank - it is HYPOCRITICAL, IMO...a mag that celebrates the horse yet forgives & forgets what was done to those horses? Morals & ethics? Whose, you ask? Well, I'd be willing to bet all horsepeople would say those actions were immoral and unethical. And if I did subscribe to COTH, yes, I would cxl my subscription based soley on the inclusion of the ad.
                                But this is only my opinion.

                                My horse bucked off your honor student!

                                Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique


                                • #56
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dementia 13:
                                  And I must say for someone that you all seem to dislike SO much, you spend WAY too much time talking about him.

                                  And who might you be to decide that WCPrincess? Or does free speech not hold true for us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Actually I said it is the free speech that allows you to have this thread.

                                  My point was simply that by the continuation of these threads and there have been MANY, all you are doing is giving him publicity.

                                  Good or bad, you are still talking about him and that is publicity you are generating for him.


                                  • #57
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WC Princess:

                                    My point was simply that by the continuation of these threads and there have been MANY, all you are doing is giving him publicity.

                                    Good or bad, you are still talking about him and that is publicity you are generating for him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    You are absolutely correct. What is that saying, "No such thing as bad publicity."


                                    • #58
                                      I have to disagree. The number of people who knew nothing of PV before we started discussing him is astonishing. Every time the subject arises, someone else says, "what'd he do?" So, instead of thinking, 'What a great, caring horseman to give all that moola" they think, 'What a repulsive scumbag."

                                      Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
                                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


                                      • #59
                                        Since he doesn't seem to be going away, I like to think these threads are more educational then publicity. I'm amazed there are still horse people who *don't* know about the whole criminal enterprise he was a part of and as long as there are, threads like this serve a purpose of educating them.

                                        I don't hold anything against COTH for publishing the ad....and I am a subscriber. The ad doesn't do much IMO for PV anyway, because those who think he has no part in the horse biz aren't going to be swayed by it and those who support him aren't going to become any more supportive of him because of it, either. The one good thing it does is it continues to educate those who lurk and post here but still don't know who he is. The fact is, legally he's paid his debt and as a free person if he wants to take out ads to toot his own horn, then have at it. I don't have to suddenly think he's reformed because he does that and I doubt many others will either.

                                        New York Horse Rescue


                                        • Original Poster

                                          Said WC Princess "The same liberty that allows all of you to say what you do on this BB also allows anyone to take out an ad in COTH provided they pay the fees."

                                          Well actually 99% of all papers will turn down ads if they find them libelous, offensive, etc. Almost every media kit and/or rate sheet will say something to the effect of:

                                          PUBLISHER'S APPROVAL

                                          All advertising must be approved by Publisher. Publisher may require the word "advertisement" to appear in any advertisement. Advertisers and their agencies will indemnify, defend and hold harmless any claim and all loss, expense or liability arising out of the publication of any advertising copy.

                                          This is what the Chronicle's says (I have bolded certain areas for emphasis):

                                          CONTRACT AND COPY REGULATIONS

                                          All contents of advertisements are subject to publisher’s approval.

                                          Publisher reserves the right to reject or cancel any advertisement, insertion order, space reservation, or position commitment at any time.

                                          Publisher expressly reserves the right not to publish any advertisement which, in the opinion of the publisher, is in bad taste, could be misleading, is unsupported by facts of record, or which, in the opinion of the publisher, does not conform to the standards and style of The Chronicle of the Horse.

                                          All advertising claims and assertions must be supported by documentary evidence, all facts verified, and if put in question by The Chronicle of the Horse, burden of proof rests with advertiser and its agency.

                                          All advertisements are accepted and published by The Chronicle of the Horse upon the representation of the advertising agency and the advertiser that each of them is authorized to publish the entire content and subject matter of the advertisement, and that the advertiser and its agency, if there be one, each represents that it is fully authorized and licensed to use the entire contents of the material submitted for publication as an advertisement in The Chronicle of the Horse including (1) the names, portraits and/or photographs of persons and/or animals, (2) any copyrighted material, (3) any testimonials, and (4) has the right to and is capable of selling or providing the product or service advertised at the price advertised.

                                          The advertiser and its agency agrees to relieve The Chronicle of the Horse and its employees of responsibility from any and all claims or suits arising out of publication of advertising based on information supplied by advertiser.

                                          All advertising contracts and copy—display and classified—must be submitted in writing. An insertion order or covering letter with signature must be included with copy.

                                          All advertising cancellations and/or copy changes, including rerun orders, must be in writing. Cancellations or changes in orders may not be made by the advertiser or its agency after the closing date.

                                          No advertising copy will be taken by telephone.

                                          Publisher requests typewritten or legibly printed copy; avoid strikeovers and abbreviations. Publisher is not responsible for errors in original copy or because of misinterpretation of illegible handwriting.

                                          The word “advertisement” will be placed with copy which, in the publisher’s opinion, resembles editorial matter.

                                          Black and white photographs unmarked and untrimmed are preferred; no proofs will be accepted. Photographs of horses over fences in which the rider is not wearing approved safety headgear will not be accepted.

                                          When change of copy is not received by closing date, copy from the previous issue will be inserted.

                                          Failure to place the number of ads ordered will result in short-rating with the advertiser charged the difference in rate between the actual number of insertions placed and the number scheduled by contract.

                                          Publisher shall have no liability for errors for which written notification is received from advertiser later than two weeks after issue date. The publisher’s liability for any error shall not exceed the cost of space occupied by the error.

                                          So, yeah, they could have turned it down but didn't. I would have; however it's their paper so it's up to them. But it made me RETCH.