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Please Vote To Save Fox Hunting

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  • #41
    Look how many lurkers have come out already! Now stay a while, will ya?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just because some racehorses and show horses end up being euthanized when they can no longer win money or ribbons for their owners, that doesn't make the euthanizing of foxhunting horses any less detestable. Particularly if the horse is healthy and euthanized solely because actual foxhunting may not be an option anymore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Liberty-- The problem is not that they cant do anything other than foxhunting, the problem is that there are no others to purchase the horses to have a new job. What if Barrell Racing was outlawed? what happens to all of those horses? The point of this is that there are so many horses, they will have no place else to go. Has nothing to do with the fact that they foxhunt. Does that make sense?

    "Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
    FairWeather
    CANTER West Virginia

    Comment


    • #42
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
      [I'm just saying.......a lotta guys wouldn't want to lump deer hunters together and describe them as _lice_ if they want to defend their sport (which includes the act of hunting.) Shouldn't the foxhunters want to have the deer hunters as allies?
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Yes, you are right. This is an excellent point.

      I don't want all deer hunters branded as lice and definitely deer hunters and fox hunters should be allies. You are DEFINITELY right.

      Comment


      • #43
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fairweather posted the following:
        The problem is not that they cant do anything other than foxhunting, the problem is that there are no others to purchase the horses to have a new job. What if Barrell Racing was outlawed? what happens to all of those horses? The point of this is that there are so many horses, they will have no place else to go. Has nothing to do with the fact that they foxhunt. Does that make sense?
        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        No, that doesn't make sense (not to me anyway). Why can't foxhunters be used in events where there is no actual fox involved? Can't those same horses still function as mounts for drag hunts, simple cross country jaunts, and other like pursuits? Are you saying that foxhunter horses can only function when on a hunt field that involves chasing actual foxes? Are you also saying that in areas where foxhunting is popular that there aren't those who own and ride horses that don't partake of actual fox hunting?

        As for barrel horses, my sister owned an ex-barrel horse, and he was an awesome ride, and she never took him around a single barrel.

        As for race horses, at a race barn (steeplechasers and flat racers) where I used to work, training of each and every young prospect included trailering to local schooling shows in order to have a well-rounded horse that could function well off the track and well as on the track. Those horses knew the difference between going into a starting gate and going through the in-gate at a show or heading out over the pastures for a trail ride (yes, we trail rode those prospects too).

        Now I know that not all race trainers take this type of care and consideration of the future of their horses, but it is possible, if one has the inclination. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
        Equus Keepus Brokus

        Comment


        • #44
          Sure, I think many foxhunting horses can do other work. I think, though, that there'll be quite a glut on the market in event of a ban, and just like we have New Holland here, I think that many otherwise good and useful horses will not find a place.

          The hounds are going to be different, however. England is a small country and many, many hounds are going to need homes. Without the hunt there will be no money for one person to feed & care for them all, plus many of them wouldn't do well at all in a house or apartment. Not to mention that the hounds wouldn't be happy by themselves, but people don't think of their welfare even while that's all they talk about. I have 3 beagles and if there are separated for any length of time (like more than 2 hours) they are VERY unhappy and seek each other out. Oh, they love being sofa dogs but after a couple of hours it's could we please go back outside now, please? It's really boring in here. They have their own life in the kennel that doesn't involve me. Oh, they love me and like to be with me, but not 24 hours a day, and frankly, to keep them in the house where they can't see and do anything all day long while I'm at work is downright cruel. When they're in their kennel outside they sun and play and chew toys and sleep and look all around and sniff the breeze - inside life is NOT what makes them happy.

          Comment


          • #45
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, that doesn't make sense (not to me anyway). Why can't foxhunters be used in events where there is no actual fox involved? Can't those same horses still function as mounts for drag hunts, simple cross country jaunts, and other like pursuits? Are you saying that foxhunter horses can only function when on a hunt field that involves chasing actual foxes? Are you also saying that in areas where foxhunting is popular that there aren't those who own and ride horses that don't partake of actual fox hunting?

            As for barrel horses, my sister owned an ex-barrel horse, and he was an awesome ride, and she never took him around a single barrel.

            As for race horses, at a race barn (steeplechasers and flat racers) where I used to work, training of each and every young prospect included trailering to local schooling shows in order to have a well-rounded horse that could function well off the track and well as on the track. Those horses knew the difference between going into a starting gate and going through the in-gate at a show or heading out over the pastures for a trail ride (yes, we trail rode those prospects too).
            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            **FW bangs head against wall.**

            You are missing my point. It doesnt matter if the horses were trained to foxhunt, trail ride or KNIT! The fact is, there are THOUSANDS of horses that will now be out of a job, Where do they all go?? Of COURSE someone would rather find a new home for a horse, and possibly get some money through a sale, but how many homes do you think will now be looking for another horse? I didnt say anything like this: Are you saying that foxhunter horses can only function when on a hunt field that involves chasing actual foxes? Are you also saying that in areas where foxhunting is popular that there aren't those who own and ride horses that don't partake of actual fox hunting?

            RE: the barrell horse reference--simply an example. Replace Jumper, dressage horse, trail horse. What does one do with ALL of them?? Sell them all? To WHOM?? We cant find homes for horses in the states and there are no bans on any disciplines!

            RE: the racing stuff: Great for you and your employers. Unfortunately most operations dont do it that way--I wish they did, it sure would make my second job a whole lot easier.

            My point is, its Simple to say, lets find homes for all of them! (Just like its simple to say, lets ban slaughter!) What a novel idea! Now someone tell me how it will logistically work??? Where do these horses, who have been paid for and supported by people coming over to foxhunt, go now?

            "Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
            FairWeather
            CANTER West Virginia

            Comment


            • #46
              *handing Fairweather a couple of Advil on account of her head-banging episode*

              Fairweather, I sure don't have the answers, and you won't find me singing the "ban horse slaughter" song since I do like to think of myself as a realist. It just really bugged me to think that foxhunting using actual foxes needs to be kept in place so that foxhunter horses and hounds aren't euthanized. To me, that's like the horse ads I see all the time that say that if the horse doesn't get sold in x-number of days, it will be taken to an auction.

              I guess it's just that I would love the "responsible horseowner" aspect to be applicable to all horseowners, but I know that isn't realistic. Nor do I feel that foxhunting against actual foxes is justified by saying that, otherwise, horses and hounds will be put to death. Unfortunately there are no cut and dried answers to this one.

              For the record, I do catch your drift now, and I wish your second job didn't have to be done in the first place. Thanks for being there for those horses.

              And now I'm going to head outside and pamper my fat trail horses who have been having a lot of time off due to this incessant heat. I know I can't save the world, but at least my horses have a home for life, no matter if they become unrideable or not.

              And I'm going to shoot the next fox who dares cross my pasture, if my camera is within reach. ;-)
              Equus Keepus Brokus

              Comment


              • #47
                >>My, my, my.....this is where the foxhunters shoot themselves in the foot sometimes....BOY do you sound elitest!! AND that is the major rift in the British Foxhunters v. the working class city dwellers. It's a class issue. You can kill the foxes, just not on horseback.....how classist is that? But I'm afraid the British Foxhunters have been arrogant time and time again. I think they handled the whole thing all wrong. Of course arent' I armchair quarterbacking!!!<<

                Madam,

                As I quote your entire message above I ask you what exactly do you think was elitest. I gave an accurate description of what happens at the opening of every dear season in the US. Having had bullets wiz buy my ear more that once gives me a good foundation from wince I speak and I know the were drunk because I tracked them done, took their guys to be turned over later to the local game warden and ran them off the posted property that they were hunting without permission and they were lucking that I did not return fire out of reflex. So if this humble hay farmers being a bit touchy about a bunch of city boys with big guns they aren't respnosable enough to use carefully and who don't respect the country folks right to have PRIVATE property is elitest, then by god I am and I am proud of it.

                Now insted of posting a completely prejoritive and ill considered comment like you why don't you get your brain accurately engaged and post something with meaningful substance.

                For the record a very large number of the people that foxhunt in the UK are from what you would consider the lower classes. Simple people that make a living off the land and enjoy the hunt. And since your so concerned over the class issue who is going to employee and support the thousands and thounsands of people that are going to be put out of work should a ban occur, and further why are you supporting people that actively engage in terrorism as a means to further their ends?

                Ronald E. Kramedjian

                Comment


                • #48
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rkramedjian:


                  As I quote your entire message above I ask you what exactly do you think was elitest. I gave an accurate description of what happens at the opening of every dear season in the <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Mr. Kramedjian,

                  Like I said before, I think you "sound" elitest. That is simply my perception. The reason I think that is because your words and the way you say them make me think that "you" think that you and yours are better than other "hunters". Hey, maybe you are! But it may behoove you to keep your superiority to yourself. Of course that's just my opinion.

                  The reason I am thinking this way is because once I lurked on a general BB in England. I think it was related to a newspaper and people on there....well the topic was the foxhunt ban and all they could talk about was how pompous the "country set" was. They want to ban foxhunting to "stick it" to them.

                  Oh, and like I said before, my brother is a hunter. You know, one of the yahoos, or is it lice, that hunt deer. And I can assure you, he is not anything near what you described.
                  [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about, but really don't think it is fair to call deer hunters lice.....just on general principles. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                  "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will."
                  - Martin Luther King, Jr.
                  The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Liberty:
                    found the following excerpts at this link:

                    http://pdi.enviroweb.org/foxpaper.htm

                    FOX CONTROL AS A POPULATION REGULATOR:

                    CONCLUSION:

                    There is no scientific evidence to prove that foxhunting or fox control are necessary. Arguments that cubhunting is needed to promote fox dispersal, and that foxhunting selectively weeds out potentially troublesome foxes are unsupported by any scientific data and are unlikely at best. Despite being portrayed as a humane practice, foxhunting causes a great deal of fear, stress and pain to foxes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                    I'm curious as to how you managed to 'unearth' Cris Waller's report without noticing the 'real' research out there first.

                    But giving you the benefit of the doubt, it's the perfect example of the need to check one's sources out - which is why I took the time to 'dig out' all these URL's for you and khobstetter.

                    Cris Waller is an animal rights supporter who has never been known to let facts get in the way of her emotional appeals. I have the actual USDA Report she claims to quote, and not one (1) number is correct. Hard to believe, but it's true. Some sites who have posted her 'report' have referred to her (and sometimes 'him'!) as 'Professor' - which she has never bothered to correct although she has no scientific background unless you count fly-ball competitions in California. After the USDA got after her for misquoting their research, there was some reduction in both the frequency and length of her report being posted on the internet, but of course the damage had already been done, especially in England (where the Sunday Times picked it up and then had to follow up with a reluctant correction). Telling 'a big lie' early and often still seems to work. Unfortunately. Doesn't make it right.

                    I would also point out that of the three animal rights organizations who have been backing a ban...the IFAW has apparently pulled out (money issues - other 'issues' get more donations from the public), the RSPCA is losing the backing of their board (combination of money issues and what the Inquiry revealed) and the LACS has lost six of their top leaders over the past few years (realization of the true impact of a ban on foxes and deer). That should tell you something about what this is really about.

                    And my favorite bit from the Oral Evidence at the Inquiry? After the Committee had pointed out there *was* no actual research that supported a ban, this was Mr Swann's reply:
                    "Mr Swann: I think in respect of interpreting scientific information, the information that we have gleaned with regard to the cruelty which we have stated is involved in hunting with dogs is as objective as it is going to get, because in order to make it more objective would require scientific experiment, which is most unlikely to be licensed under the Home Office terms and conditions given the frivolous nature of such experimentation -- and I say "frivolous" as opposed to activities such as promotion of human health and the promulgation of scientific understanding where it is for human benefit. It is very, very unlikely that our level of knowledge will proceed beyond that which we now have and we have to make judgments on that basis, as we do in almost every case where animal cruelty is alleged, because in dealing with animal cruelty in order to carry out what might be considered as definitive scientific experiments would mean adding to that degree of cruelty, so those experiments do not take place."

                    In other words - this whole ban is 'frivolous' (and baseless!) compared to what the government should be doing instead. And yet.... ;-)

                    If you want 'real' facts, this is the UK Inquiry referred to earlier:
                    http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/

                    This is the fox autopsy report:
                    http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/mai...postmortem.htm

                    And this is where you can find lots and lots of info about Foxhunting and the Inquiry:
                    http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Outdoors/Hunting/Foxhunting/

                    Ah yes - and this is Dr Kreeger's submission to the Inquiry in response to the RSPCA's attempt to pass off Cris Waller's 'research paper' as fact:
                    http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence/kreeger.htm

                    To Whom It May Concern:

                    I recently received an e-mail appearing at the bottom of this message. Since this information refers to my research, I felt it important to set the record straight.

                    The statement, "a North American study showing that hunting a fox for five minutes in a ten acre enclosure causes as much physiological suffering as catching one in a leg-hold trap. On post-mortem the foxes showed haemorrhage of heart and lungs and congestion of adrenal glands and kidneys. Blood analyses showed high levels of enzymes reflecting tissue damage" is INCORRECT.

                    I have not published that chasing a fox with a dog causes changes that are less than/equal to/greater than being trapped. The post mortem changes that are quoted are applicable ONLY to TRAPPED foxes. We never published post mortem analyses on CHASED foxes. It appears that people are taking trapped fox data and applying it to chased foxes. The only published data referring to chased foxes are the elevated heart rates and body temperatures that appeared in the Canadian Journal of Zoology (see below).

                    The statement "Red foxes caught in foothold traps developed Cclassical stress responses characterised by increased HR [heart rate], increased HPA [hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical] hormones, elevations of serum chemicals, and neutrophilia" is CORRECT as it refers only to TRAPPED foxes. However, if a reader is not reviewing the information critically, it may appear that these findings apply to chased foxes as well.

                    This has been a continuing problem with misinterpretation of my data that apparently began with an anti-hunting group in the U.S. That group's web page attributed changes recorded in trapped foxes to changes in foxes chased by dogs. This is blatantly incorrect and, I suspect, willfully done.

                    I personally have no stake in this issue in the U.K. other that trying to insure that the objective truth is disseminated. If you have any questions or require additional information, please feel free to contact me.

                    Terry J. Kreeger, DVM, PhD

                    Wildlife Veterinarian

                    Wyoming Game and Fish Department

                    ON MARCH 3, I RECEIVED THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:

                    The publication 'How will a ban on hunting affect the British fox population?' cites a North American study showing that hunting a fox for five minutes in a ten acre enclosure causes as much physiological suffering as catching one in a leg-hold trap. On post-mortem the foxes showed haemorrhage of heart and lungs and congestion of adrenal glands and kidneys. Blood analyses showed high levels of enzymes reflecting tissue damage.

                    The study concluded:

                    Red foxes caught in foothold traps developed classical stress responses characterised by increased HR [heart rate], increased HPA [hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical] hormones, elevations of serum chemicals, and neutrophilia. During the studies physiological indices were transmitted using radiotelemetry. In relation to the inquiry it is noteworthy that the heart rate of foxes chased by dogs was significantly higher than that of foxes running. Body temperatures were also higher, reflecting the additional exertion required.

                    (the rest of the submission)

                    100 Kreeger,T.J. (1990). Pathological responses of red foxes to foothold traps Journal of Wildlife Management. 54, 147-160

                    101 Kreeger, T.J. et al. (1989). Monitoring heart rate and body temperature in red foxes. Canadian Journal of Zoology. 67, 2455-2458

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      I will see if I can get someone who is active in the saving of Fox Hunting in England to respond to this thread [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                      http://community.webshots.com/user/cotswoldjr
                      http://temp.hillcresttrainingnet.off...m/default.aspx
                      [url]
                      Starman Babies

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
                        I will see if I can get someone who is active in the saving of Fox Hunting in England to respond to this thread [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        what do you think I am doing here? <bg>

                        www.goneawaytours.com
                        www.goneawaytours.com

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #52
                          I totally appreciate you being here Wiltshire Woman!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                          I was hoping the person who sent me this would come on also and add his help.

                          And to shamelessly give this a bump up from the second page, before it got lost.
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/cotswoldjr
                          http://temp.hillcresttrainingnet.off...m/default.aspx
                          [url]
                          Starman Babies

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Coon hunting that is ;-)
                            At first I didn't really want to post a reply on this thread, but after reading some of the other posts, I feel like I realy need to. No, I am no Fosxhunting expert, but I do own, breed, show, and hunt Treeing Walker Coonhounds. For those of you who don't know anything about Walker dogs, or Coon (Racoon) Hunting, I'll try to explain as there is many simulairaties between coon and fox hunting. A Treeing walker is colored likea Beagle, and looks a lot like a Foxhound, only a Walker has much longer ears. The breed was actually derived from the Engligh Fox hound, so they have a lot in common.

                            For one, to say that ... "the only way to keep the hounds aggressive and active is to let them catch some animal and tear it apart"... well, it just isn't true. We still have 2 young gyps (females) out of a litter of 10 dogs, left that we dont have room for in our kennels. I have raised them from birth and they are almost a year old. They never wander from our property - we are on 500 acres - and sleep on our back porch. However they are skinny from hunting all day. Have we ever taken them hunting? Do we ever force them to hunt in this heat? Have they ever killed a Racoon? The answer to these questions is NO. They do it because thats what they were bred to do. They run around during the day time chasing squirells (sp) deer and such, but the will only "tree" a Racooon, that is when they stand up on a tree and howl. This is something that they were born with. Yes, we have let them bark at a coon in a cage, but we let it go right after they smelled and barked at it. There mother is a Champion Bench Show Walker dog, and she lives in the house, sleeps on the bed, and is totally spoiled, but when hunting seasn rolls around, she will hunt with the best of them! Coons are only allowed to be shot and killed in the winter, but we go hunting all year. Yo see, the objective of the hunt - weather hunting foxes or coons - is because we enjoy to hear our dogs on a trail, and we like watching them hunt. Of course with foxhunting it is also to ride etc, Con hunting is a nite, and you hacve to walk - unless you have a good mule ;-) Now, grant it, I am a major animal lover, and ,my husband is a major hunter - deer, coons, Turkey - and I rarely go on coon hunts where the coon are shot out of the tree for the dogs to finish off, but is it any crueler then raising a cow in a tiny dark stall, and killing it when its still young for veal? Racoon, as well as Fox, really dont have any natural preditors, axcept for mabe wolves and Coyotes, but most of them wont tange with a racoon, they are too mean. Fox and Racoons carry mange, ticks, lice, and disease. They are now even saying that Racoons - not sure about Fox, are carries of EPM, like Possums are.

                            Also, in Foxhuting, as well as coonhunting, sometimes the fox isnt cought, and many times a live fox isnt even used. Hunting has been around since man kind, and I imagine it always will be, as I imagine the animal activists will be as well. Now dot get me wrong, though I love to fish, and coon hunt,. I could never shoot a deer, or any other animal. My husband calls me a bunny hugger. That doesnt mean though, that I think hunting should be outlawed. We eat even=ry bit of Deer meat that my husband gets, and the racoons he shoots, he takes to an old man up the road who cooks them up to eat.....lol, no I am not that brave, or that much of a red neck to eat a coon!
                            Anyway, if anyone is still reading this, sorry it got so long, but if people are as passionate about their foxhunting as I am about coon hunting - which I know they are - then I think it should always stay around!

                            ~~Founder of the "I want a CANTER Horse" clique!~~
                            ***Looking for that special horse?? Get an Exracer!!!
                            http://www.canterusa.org/
                            The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
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                            • #54
                              Sure go ahead and ban hunting on horseback BUT ONLY if the ban is ALL hunting of ALL animals by EVERY method! I have had enough deer hunters shooting on my posted property where my horses reside to say if they are banned then everything can be, BUT that will never happen cause they all want their trophy rack! UNtil that ban is total leave fox hunter to their persuit.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Bumpkining
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                                • #56
                                  foxhunting sound calm and collected and the people for it get so defensive and even a bit, er, hysterical.
                                  What's wrong with fox-scent hunts? I thought that's what's usually done in the States anyway.

                                  "Everything that doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
                                  Nietzsche
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                                  • #57
                                    ...I echo Liberty and say nice posts!

                                    "Everything that doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
                                    Nietzsche
                                    www.softlandingstables.com

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                                    • #58
                                      that I have never hunted. Perhaps, then, as a relative knownothing, I am not allowed to vote?

                                      I question why the live chase cannot be replaced by drag hunting. To me, the concept and result are the same-- the hounds catch a scent and the field has a few hours' enjoyment galloping and jumping across the countryside. What are we losing by moving to drag hunting solely?

                                      That said, I think if we are going to outlaw fox hunting, it would be hypocritical not to also want cosmetic testing on animals, trapping and some types of game hunting outlawed as well. After all, any or all of these can easily be viewed as more heinous than fox hunting.

                                      Honestly, I am very torn on this subject. I'd like to see the sport preserved, but I can't believe, given the relatively small number of foxes caught by the hounds in our country annually, that the nation would be overrun by foxes in short order as a result of a ban...I put little stock in that too-frequent argument by hunting supporters.

                                      My love for horse sports is at conflict with my love for animals...what would you say to your child if he insisted on chasing the family dog all over the house, leaving the dog feeling tormented and exhausted? I'd say "leave the dog alone," -- and maybe that's how I feel here, too. I just don't see foxhunting as the single barrier between the U.S. and fox-plague. I think we can preserve the tradition through drag hunting...after all, if "the fox is hardly ever caught" anyway, what difference does it make?

                                      LML

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                                      • #59
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I question why the live chase cannot be replaced by drag hunting. To me, the concept and result are the same-- the hounds catch a scent and the field has a few hours' enjoyment galloping and jumping across the countryside. What are we losing by moving to drag hunting solely?
                                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Emphasis added by Kryswyn

                                        Your 'concept' is not the same as a foxhunter's! To a true foxhunter it is all about the chase! A drag hunt would certainly provide what you describe as galloping and jumping across the countryside. But foxhunters want to see the craftyness of the fox; the interaction that occurs when a fox uses his wiles to confuse a pack; to see a young hound find his first scent and be bold enough to open on it - and have it be honored by the rest of the pack. A drag hunt has an element of sameness to it. It always provides a good ride. But how can you tell when you've had a *great* run when every trail is known in advance (at least to the man laying the scent and perhaps others) and is guaranteed to to provide a certain level of ride???

                                        I have never in 4.5 years of talking to foxhunters EVER had one say they preferred drag hunting over live hunting. I could even say I've heard condescending remarks along the lines of "..well, but you know they're a drag hunt."

                                        ~Kryswyn~
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                                        ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
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                                        • #60
                                          Death as entertainment. Interesting concept.

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