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Horse Emotions....!!

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  • #21
    a horse will re-act how you act--

    they also have all there senses unlike humans
    when people say my horse gets jealous - its not the horse its you sending that vibe sub conciously to the horse
    if a human loses a sense ie deaf- they the use the other senses more so
    if a human lost a limb they use another

    with horses they have all there senses and they use other senses to detect that we dont have - for exsample a blind horse would use his whiskers to detect foodstuffs as they are feelers the same way a dog or cats are
    not many people think they can or they think they have no need for them so willingly cut them of to make the horse look smart but when a horse is blinded you taking away something natural that can help him to locate foodstuffs

    horses use there senses to pick up on any vibe you sending out -
    for exsample - if you are lack of confident- hesistant- or lets say in your mind you see a jump over 2ft 9inches as most joe bloggs only jump an average of 2ft 9 or 3ft 3ft 9 if you lucky -- anything over that they get scared so put a mental block of
    i dont like the look of that jump----- so horse say neither do i matey then he horse runs out to the side or stops --- why becuase sub conciously you told him to

    horses love clear direct signals - be it in mind to mind or to handle ridden or driven
    you give clear direct signal--

    confident assertive people will get xyz

    those that ask with mixed signals as in -- ask with the legs hold with the head as your not sure creates a doubt - lack of confidence creates a doubt hesistation creates a doubt
    a doubt in ahorses mind is a fear factor 1st is to flee the 2nd is to advade you be it ridden driven handled whatever
    this also includes how you speak - tones of voice are just as eefective to ahorse
    if a dog pooh on the floor you would scold it as in tell it off
    if it brought you slippers you would praze it -- both incidents your tones of voice would change thus giving the dog an approval or disapproval please or unplease

    horses are like dogs they like to please they like clear direct signals and no namby pamby baby coo stuff

    if you think your horse is jealous then its youhat thinks t s the horse will re-act to your thought patterns or vibes or aura your giving off -

    senerio

    theres a horse in the field thats known to be aggressive --is it agrressive or is it defenssive in how you aprroaching the horse - as in your aura or vibe you giving off as ooo i dont want to touch him or go near him so take a wide birth -- so whos showing who to be aggressive - you are so the horse re-acts by being defensive which you intrepretate as aggression.. bu then sub conciously you told him to

    a great horseman told me a long time ago before the parelli belly lot
    that to understand a horse 1st you must get close to the horse
    this one sentence has many meanings----- when i was young i didnt even know 1
    but over the years i have learn them all and the biggest one is to win a horse over you win his mind get that and your home free think horse and what a horse would do rather than what a human does

    Comment

    • #22
      parelli belly
      i like it

      Comment

      • #23
        Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
        When you start thinking of a horse as having human emotions, you are not being fair to the horse, and you are not appreciating them for what they really are.
        On the other hand are the folks who think animals don't even feel physical pain, let alone emotions. The extreme opposite of over-anthropomorphizing.

        Although I tend to think what a person believes about horse's emotions has more to do with how they feel themselves - a emotionally sensitive person will tend to believe animals have delicate feelings; the cold, harsh person will tend to believe animals can't even feel pain, let alone any emotions.

        I think it's called projecting?

        Comment

        • #24
          On the other hand are the folks who think animals don't even feel physical pain, let alone emotions. The extreme opposite of over-anthropomorphizing.

          Although I tend to think what a person believes about horse's emotions has more to do with how they feel themselves - a emotionally sensitive person will tend to believe animals have delicate feelings; the cold, harsh person will tend to believe animals can't even feel pain, let alone any emotions.

          I think it's called projecting?
          True...and then there's the middle ground of realistic folks who accept the animals for exactly what they are and don't project their own human-ness onto the animals.
          I'm kind of on the fence...I don't project my own human emotions onto the horses but I am capable to being empathetic. I do think my horses are adorable and I adore them...I'll kiss them on the nose and talk to them like they're big special needs children at times and get big laughs out of projecting certain human thoughts on them because it amuses me. But in reality...they're horses. Not humans. And not to say they're "just horses" because I don't consider any animal JUST an animal. But I am able to accept them and care for them and handle them as they are...as horses. As herd animals with both a herd mentality and a prey mentality. I think it keeps me and the horses happier and healthier.
          But that could be because I also work in wildlife and have for ages and ages. Studying natural animal behavior is both a job and hobby of mine and it's a fantastic thing all on it's own without mushing it up with human emotions.
          You jump in the saddle,
          Hold onto the bridle!
          Jump in the line!
          ...Belefonte

          Comment

          • #25
            Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
            True...and then there's the middle ground of realistic folks who accept the animals for exactly what they are and don't project their own human-ness onto the animals.
            I'm kind of on the fence...I don't project my own human emotions onto the horses but I am capable to being empathetic. I do think my horses are adorable and I adore them...I'll kiss them on the nose and talk to them like they're big special needs children at times and get big laughs out of projecting certain human thoughts on them because it amuses me. But in reality...they're horses. Not humans. And not to say they're "just horses" because I don't consider any animal JUST an animal. But I am able to accept them and care for them and handle them as they are...as horses. As herd animals with both a herd mentality and a prey mentality. I think it keeps me and the horses happier and healthier.
            But that could be because I also work in wildlife and have for ages and ages. Studying natural animal behavior is both a job and hobby of mine and it's a fantastic thing all on it's own without mushing it up with human emotions.
            And to tie this back to the OP's question, I would ask, so what if horses happen NOT to have the same complex emotions or are less intelligent (or differently intelligent) than humans? That's no reason to be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them. Compassion and kindness don't need to be based on how much like us a creature is, although that seems a bit of a natural instinct in humans.

            We feel more sorry for a suffering creature if it use's distinct facial expressions to show pain, or it vocalizes in a similar way to a human who is suffering, or it has a face and body structure we can identify with (dog vs fish...). Would it be as easy to kill a roach if it cried out "no, stop! please don't kill me!"???

            Comment

            • #26
              Originally posted by twofatponies View Post
              And to tie this back to the OP's question, I would ask, so what if horses happen NOT to have the same complex emotions or are less intelligent (or differently intelligent) than humans? That's no reason to be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them. Compassion and kindness don't need to be based on how much like us a creature is, although that seems a bit of a natural instinct in humans.

              We feel more sorry for a suffering creature if it use's distinct facial expressions to show pain, or it vocalizes in a similar way to a human who is suffering, or it has a face and body structure we can identify with (dog vs fish...). Would it be as easy to kill a roach if it cried out "no, stop! please don't kill me!"???
              Who said it's ok to "be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them"? I didn't get that feel from any post I read?

              Whether you think your horse is Black Beauty and he loves you and misses you when you are gone, or you just buy and sell them to make money, or you need your horse to herd your cattle.... they all deserve proper care.
              Jigga:
              Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

              Comment

              • #27
                Originally posted by twofatponies View Post
                And to tie this back to the OP's question, I would ask, so what if horses happen NOT to have the same complex emotions or are less intelligent (or differently intelligent) than humans? That's no reason to be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them. Compassion and kindness don't need to be based on how much like us a creature is, although that seems a bit of a natural instinct in humans.

                We feel more sorry for a suffering creature if it use's distinct facial expressions to show pain, or it vocalizes in a similar way to a human who is suffering, or it has a face and body structure we can identify with (dog vs fish...). Would it be as easy to kill a roach if it cried out "no, stop! please don't kill me!"???
                arrh so true so true and misty blue,
                see when one has horses in for neglect or abuse and abuse can cover mental and pysical or both or if the horse is really on a down wards luck has the lot neglect then deeep seated trama as thats what i call it cna take yonks for ahorse to come round doesnt happen overnight or in a week or a month can take years
                and its weather one has the patience the time the knowledge and skill to bring that horse back from being a nothing as a forlorned little thing to be soemthing but will say
                those that do come back give it back to you 10times over

                patience understanding the horse requirements -learning to see feel what he sees or feels
                from his point of view - can tell sometimes just by looking in a horses eyes to how deep pain can go - a broken horse from someone elses hands isnt pretty but can be
                given alife line of hope rather than despair - touch , touch is really important to a horse
                to touch to feel-- when ever i ahve a new horse i idont groom with a brush if bad and lonely a nd forlorn i use my hands so horse gets my scent as a freind and i make a bigger impression to the horse by shoving my hands under my armpits then stroke his knees 1st then anywhere he can lick himself-- and then leave him to think

                next day i am a freind -- as hes smelt me all night long --thats my little tip of today
                your scent when on him in those places such as his knees when he eats he can smell it when he scracthes or bends his neck to eat hay he can smell it -- they have a high sense of smell you offer him a nice bed nice food - horse sleeps on it and thinks - that smell rewards with bed and food- that smell is my freind as it groomed me --i can smell that smell when she walks pass i can smell that smell before the door opens- is it fearful or not
                now that depends if the horse wants to be my freind -
                i have not hit the horse to gain freindship i have used a natural scent and told him in no uncertian terms i am a freind
                people think horses emotion -- what i have done above is true life for me with new horses
                that enter my yard- i am alpha so i have put my scent of smell on them so they know who i am and i will enforce my position with body language and actions of direct clear signals to the horse speaking and using my voice as i would to another human
                soft gentle firm - no high pitich sqeaks of cooo cooo but clear speach
                i ask politely and i get as it then becomes a mutual respect
                like i said think horse a get close to a horse then you learn how to understand there way of thinking most people know about herd enviroments and issues from alpha male and female
                etc a how a horse grooms another etc but how also they use there scent or scents of others as they are a prey animal and with that if the scent in the air of a pedictor and they detected it they would run same to as if down wind and not detected they would be ate -- so a scent is natural to a horse in there thinking of freind or foe

                Comment

                • #28
                  Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                  Who said it's ok to "be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them"? I didn't get that feel from any post I read?
                  No one said it. But the OP expressed surprise and maybe a little indignation that she had read somewhere that horse's don't have emotions, which made me wonder why it is that people want to think they do or want to think they don't; in other words, why is it that we care about this issue enough to have a thread about it. Which is the thought that led to my last post... sorry, sometimes my brain takes me on tangents!

                  Comment

                  • #29
                    And to tie this back to the OP's question, I would ask, so what if horses happen NOT to have the same complex emotions or are less intelligent (or differently intelligent) than humans? That's no reason to be cruel to them or kick them around, or neglect them. Compassion and kindness don't need to be based on how much like us a creature is, although that seems a bit of a natural instinct in humans.

                    We feel more sorry for a suffering creature if it use's distinct facial expressions to show pain, or it vocalizes in a similar way to a human who is suffering, or it has a face and body structure we can identify with (dog vs fish...). Would it be as easy to kill a roach if it cried out "no, stop! please don't kill me!"???
                    There isn't any "so what" if they're different than humans. It is what it is...not better not worse and not the same. Just different.
                    I don't understand the implication that for people who do understand the difference in animal behaviors somehow makes them cruel? Or if they don't equate their horses as human children in terms of their emotions they're somehow going to kick them around or neglect them?
                    It isn't a natural instinct at all for humans to neglect or abuse animals. At least not in this country. I don't understand where that analogy or comment is coming from.
                    Conversely...thinking your dog, cat or horse (which BTW they all have extremely different instincts and reactions from one another...prey animals are vastly different than predators and cats are from venus while dogs are from mars...not even remotely like one another in any way) is as loving and compassionate and caring towards humans as their human is towards them doesn't make them better owners either. Killing with kindness is a common enough thing...probably even more common than serious abuse or neglect.
                    In this post you *seem* to be doing the same thing as comparing horse emotions to human emotions: comparing all human emotions to your own emotions or to standards you've set for yourself.
                    If a rancher has 50 head of horses...all in good weight, good condition, get every need met and work for a living but the rancher doesn't have names for them (uses numbers as in Gelding #14) and never kisses them or gives them treats...does that make him an unkind not compassionate owner? Are the horse suffering emotional neglect?
                    Also the use of "we feel more sorry" may apply only to you and a select other amount of people. It certainly doesn't apply to me. And to many others on this BB. Having facial expressions similar to humans isn't what garners sympathy from many animal owners. They can read body language...and they also don't misinterpret the signs they see. (oh, my horse is sad because he didn't get a treat today)
                    You jump in the saddle,
                    Hold onto the bridle!
                    Jump in the line!
                    ...Belefonte

                    Comment

                    • #30
                      Originally posted by gloriginger View Post
                      No - I don't think they do. I think that is what we tell ourselves- but I think or horses they are more concerned with their needs being met- if a new human comes in a feeds them and brushes them and gives them attention- they are fine. I don't think they pine for us. They are much more in the moment then we are.
                      I know there are execptions to everything and perhaps this one is it. I got my old horse when he was 17 years old and i was 14. I saw him just about everyday until i was 20. Since i was in college full time and working full time (a few part time jobs as well), there was no way for me afford time with him so i retired him from showing to be a lesson/party horse at the barn he was at. It broke my heart of course but i was very lucky in that i could still him anytime and ride him occasionally (for old times sake). So anyway, if i didn't see him for a few weeks...sometimes a month.. the moment he would see me, he would turn his back on me and walk away. He did do that before, when i would go on vaca for a weeks. This horse is easy to catch and always walks up to me in the pasture... exept when i haven't seen him in a while. And it's an obvious thing. He would hear/see me, look at me, and turn around and walk away. Sometimes he would give up whatever he felt toward me and come walking back over for some scratching or he would stop and wait for me to get to him.

                      I'm there could the other explainations.. but i've always taken it as he would get upset-in his horsey way- and be miffed that i haven't seen him in a while.

                      Is it like that now? Nope. He's still happy to see me, and i know that he remembers me because he still acts different around me-- many people have commented on it (like he seems happier, he's more animated). He doesn't get upset anymore if i don't see him in while... he's 29 now and still kicking.

                      Maybe there's another explaination, but that's how i've always interperated it.

                      Comment

                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Kat_Renee View Post
                        I know there are execptions to everything and perhaps this one is it. I got my old horse when he was 17 years old and i was 14. I saw him just about everyday until i was 20. Since i was in college full time and working full time (a few part time jobs as well), there was no way for me afford time with him so i retired him from showing to be a lesson/party horse at the barn he was at. It broke my heart of course but i was very lucky in that i could still him anytime and ride him occasionally (for old times sake). So anyway, if i didn't see him for a few weeks...sometimes a month.. the moment he would see me, he would turn his back on me and walk away. He did do that before, when i would go on vaca for a weeks. This horse is easy to catch and always walks up to me in the pasture... exept when i haven't seen him in a while. And it's an obvious thing. He would hear/see me, look at me, and turn around and walk away. Sometimes he would give up whatever he felt toward me and come walking back over for some scratching or he would stop and wait for me to get to him.

                        I'm there could the other explainations.. but i've always taken it as he would get upset-in his horsey way- and be miffed that i haven't seen him in a while.

                        Is it like that now? Nope. He's still happy to see me, and i know that he remembers me because he still acts different around me-- many people have commented on it (like he seems happier, he's more animated). He doesn't get upset anymore if i don't see him in while... he's 29 now and still kicking.

                        Maybe there's another explaination, but that's how i've always interperated it.

                        Yeah- and I had a gelding that after not seeing him for 3 years ran across a 2acre field to see me and stuck his head in my chest - just from the sound of my voice. But I don't think he spent those three years saying "oh my gosh I miss my old owner so much I wish she would come and see me." He certainly remembered me, and we had a very special bond because I saved him from near death- but to say that a horse pines for their owners is just a human stroking their own egos.

                        Comment

                        • #32
                          Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                          There isn't any "so what" if they're different than humans. It is what it is...not better not worse and not the same. Just different.
                          I don't understand the implication that for people who do understand the difference in animal behaviors somehow makes them cruel? Or if they don't equate their horses as human children in terms of their emotions they're somehow going to kick them around or neglect them?
                          It isn't a natural instinct at all for humans to neglect or abuse animals. At least not in this country. I don't understand where that analogy or comment is coming from.
                          Conversely...thinking your dog, cat or horse (which BTW they all have extremely different instincts and reactions from one another...prey animals are vastly different than predators and cats are from venus while dogs are from mars...not even remotely like one another in any way) is as loving and compassionate and caring towards humans as their human is towards them doesn't make them better owners either. Killing with kindness is a common enough thing...probably even more common than serious abuse or neglect.
                          In this post you *seem* to be doing the same thing as comparing horse emotions to human emotions: comparing all human emotions to your own emotions or to standards you've set for yourself.
                          If a rancher has 50 head of horses...all in good weight, good condition, get every need met and work for a living but the rancher doesn't have names for them (uses numbers as in Gelding #14) and never kisses them or gives them treats...does that make him an unkind not compassionate owner? Are the horse suffering emotional neglect?
                          Also the use of "we feel more sorry" may apply only to you and a select other amount of people. It certainly doesn't apply to me. And to many others on this BB. Having facial expressions similar to humans isn't what garners sympathy from many animal owners. They can read body language...and they also don't misinterpret the signs they see. (oh, my horse is sad because he didn't get a treat today)
                          I was thinking about it on a more hypothetical/philosophical level. Like I said brain on tangent.

                          Personally I don't think it is neglectful or cruel to have working/using animals. When I said neglect, I meant starvation, for example, not failing to give them peppermints & kisses every five minutes.

                          The facial expression thing was from my own observation of people responding to my two horses. One mare a very expressive face - lots of lip and eye movements, big gestures to show her reactions to things. My other mare tends to be - to outside eyes - very "boring". People say, oh she doesn't have a personality. It's simply that her facial expressions and body language are much more subtle, and not something a person unfamiliar with horses can identify.

                          Comment

                          • #33
                            Originally posted by gloriginger View Post
                            He certainly remembered me, and we had a very special bond because I saved him from near death- but to say that a horse pines for their owners is just a human stroking their own egos.
                            hmmmmm.... how interesting!
                            Jigga:
                            Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                            Comment

                            • #34
                              Originally posted by twofatponies View Post
                              On the other hand are the folks who think animals don't even feel physical pain, let alone emotions. The extreme opposite of over-anthropomorphizing.

                              Although I tend to think what a person believes about horse's emotions has more to do with how they feel themselves - a emotionally sensitive person will tend to believe animals have delicate feelings; the cold, harsh person will tend to believe animals can't even feel pain, let alone any emotions.

                              I think it's called projecting?
                              Hmm not sure if it is projection. I have always been an extemely sensitive person. I can "feel" the mood a person is in, just as I enter the room. Is he mad, happy. I just "knew". horses in that regard-on a purely emotional, basic level are extremely similar to us. If you are sesnitive to your horse-you can "feel" the horse and realize that if you push that horse anymore, it will blow up. there may be absolutely no signs on the outside. I have felt many a spook coming.

                              Someone who is cold and shut off to their feeling side may just not be able to 'feel" that. We humans can get that way. When a 20 yo marries an 80yr guy and convinces herself that that is the best thing for her-you think those are her true feelings? When an extemely ambitious, goal driven person lives and breathes for some illusory goal post in his career and in the process looses/runs over everybody in his path-friends/family/spouse and yet somehow convinces himself that they are just losers that needed to be tossed aside or some such-do you think they are really very sensitive and operating from their feeling self?

                              Sometimes we do things because we have to. I went through my immigration process when I first came into this country. Until it was over, I was stuck in my company. I had a boss who was from India too who was very sadistic. He loved to break down young/new folks so he could be in control-he said that openly. I was stuck -if I left, I had to start the immigration process from scratch and that could take years and years. I stuck around-but just the amount of anger and rage and helplessness I felt -that I had to do something to feel ok. I found food- a nice distraction. I balloned up and a portion of my hair turned grey and I had all kind of aches and pain in my body-but stopped feeling for a while-who wants to feel pain and anger and rage all the time. It took me a long time to get over that. I just see a lot of humans that way-stuck in a situation like that bad/abusive marraige, job, whatever- because in their mind they have to and somehow have convinced themselves that the current situation is their dream . Sometimes they may know and it maybe for the kids or because that is all they know how to do and are to afraid of the unknown. Your feeling self does not go away-it just festers and too much time goes by and the pain is just too great.

                              Horses and in them I do find some difference, especially the hot breeds can be very sensitive too. Some have just given up and can be close to zombies-just doing their jobs-no one there. Again the danger arising when we start comparing them to humans . We are just so complex. Our goals, our beliefs are so complex. We have people who are willing to strap explosives on to them and blow themselves up in the belief that they are doing something holy and honorable and will be rewarded in the afterlife. We have rules and regulations that we abide by. We may drive down a road at 40mph and see a sign that says stop and we will stop even though there is nobody as far as the eye can see. Our behaviours and our beliefs and our society is just incredibly complex. We may defer to the authority of someone we have never met before and who may be old and feeble and maybe in a wheelchair-simply because he has a 'title" .

                              If you look at humans, we are exceedingly complex. When I was growing up in India, if you fell in love with somebody, that was the most shameful thing you could do. It would affect your entire family-nobody would want to marry your sisters and so on. If you fell in love with a "lower" caste person and eloped, you could get riots and people could end up killing each other. It has happened. So our feelings of 'shame" , disgust etc can be culturally conditioned. Now India is very different, especially urban areas, everybody is falling in love, going out, clubbing etc.

                              With horses though all that stuff is not there. They are very basic, very in the moment. You can never get a horse rushing to bear arms because an old gelding they have never physically seen two ranches down has decided we are going to war. they are there, in the moment. Much simpler. Even a child, you can tell them scary stories and convince them that some place is haunted. Then they may be terrified of that place-even though they have not experienced anything. Horses you can't tell them anything except through your feeling-panic, teror or you witch you better stop that or you are in trouble. they may remember something and be cautious-but something should have happened or something is scary or you are all over the place in an energy level. Sensitive hot horses like my mare will give you extremely high reactions to your feel and will feed off your energy. doesn't take much to rile them up. other horses I have seen actually slow down for their owners and calm down-or maybe they just don't feel it as much. i certainly don't think they are like humans-if they were, why pay board to maintain two horses!!

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Jenesmane View Post
                                Yeah I believe they do feel all of the emotions of humans. I do however agree not in the same way. But I just don't see how some people think they don't feel at all.

                                This is how I feel too.

                                I can't fathom how people can say that horses have no emotions. I think it's very clear to any observant person who spends their lives with horses that they have emotions. Different than people, yes. But emotions nonetheless.
                                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

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                                • #36
                                  Yes, they are emotional. Are they emotional like humans, no. Their emotions are firmly grounded in the logic of their survival instinct. Do they love their human owners... only to the extent that they feel they can trust our leadership to keep them safe and comfortable. They bond with humans and other horses, but they do so for much more logical and pracital reasons than humans do. They don't love 'unconditionally' or fall in love with this or that human because they are beautiful or intersting. They will prefer one human or horse over the other simply because that human or horse makes them feel safer and more secure.

                                  They can show excitement, depression, and even have a temper tantrum, but they don't do so for the same reasons people do. They don't come in categories of things like 'manipulative' or 'evil'. The come more in categories of 'secure', 'insecure', 'kind' or 'opinionated'. Some can be stubborn, others malleable, but for the most part, it you take the time to look to the cause of their behaviour, you can figure out why they do what they do, whereas humans can be so much more illogical and hard to understand.
                                  Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                                  Witherun Farm
                                  http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

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                                  • #37
                                    My horse sees me as the treat provider.
                                    Insignia MC - Spanish PRE mare
                                    Kenny - Hanoverian Gelding
                                    Tuggy - RIP at the bridge (9/12/2016)
                                    Theodore the Boxer - RIP at the the bridge (10/5/2017)

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                                    • #38
                                      Maybe, just maybe, horses have more brain than we think!
                                      http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13642

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                                      • #39
                                        And here's this article:
                                        http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12599

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Starda01 View Post
                                          Maybe, just maybe, horses have more brain than we think!
                                          http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13642
                                          Horses have excellent memories.

                                          Their brains are wired for that. They will remember what they did to escape a predator - and what works for them they will try again.

                                          They will remember what their surroundings look like - and will react if something is different. (an extra "rock" on the horizon might actually be a predator!)

                                          This is how horses are built. I certainly don't connect anything of these things with emotions?
                                          Jigga:
                                          Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

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