Who should pay for this?

[saultgirl]

Wow, no one said the kids were going to be unsupervised, and no one said the tack in question was crappy.

The barn probably put in this clause because of the kids who don't put things away (like maybe left a bridle hanging somewhere and a horse chewed it up, or it got left out in the rain) or lose things because they are rushing around, etc.

The reaction of some posters is suprising; if the barn was also asking you to sign a waiver saying that riding was dangerous and the barn was not responsible for injury/death caused by the horses, would you also assume all the horses are crazy and stay away from that barn?

[JSwan]

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a student to replace tack.

However, it's also not reasonable for an instructor to replace tack damaged by spoiled rotten bratty kids who have no respect for other peoples possessions.

Whether its enforceable or not would depend upon state law. Maybe it's nothing more than the instructors attempt to mitigate his/her losses.

I'm probably going to sound a bit evil but I've seen parents practically kick their kids out of the car and use the barn as a babysitter for their kids. Kids run rampant, have no respect for property or people, and basically act like a little mob.

I guess that speaks more to a decline in society rather than a bad or silly contract.

Still..... there is probably a reason the instructor felt it necessary to hold a bit of a sword over his/her students. I doubt a kid would be charged for reins broken through no fault of her own - but a bratty kid who didn't listen, had no respect, and disobeyed instruction - leading to broken or damaged tack? Perhaps.

If the student isn't comfortable with the contract best to look elsewhere I guess.

One of the reasons I don't take in boarders is because I don't want to deal with the hassle of trash, damage, gates left open, water and lights left on, or other rude or disrepectful behavior. It's just not worth the hassle.

Hats off to folks willing to give lessons or take in boarders - it's got to be a huge PITA these days.

[Haalter]

I'd be willing to bet that the BO/manager wrote that rule after a long day which included kids leaving bridles out where they could be chewed by horses, a kid daydreaming while her pony stepped on the reins and broke them, and another kid leaving a saddle in a stall. Just a guess

[Ambrey]

Ideally they should always be supervised, however what one parents idea of supervision may not be the other parents idea of supervision. As for kids earning money, they do all the time in all sorts of ways. Last year I had a lovely young lady clean my tack (with the approval of her parents) which gave her the opportunity to part lease her pony. And yes, parents should be responsible for the actions of their children.

I think the point is that while the child is in the lesson, the instructor is supervising. Parents don't necessarily know how tack is supposed to be taken care of.

[JRG]

I understand what some are saying, but I don't agree. Parents know that if you don't look after things they get damaged, they should use it as an opportunity to teach that. You can't tell me that parents don't know that if care is not taken leather gets damaged.

I believe, there should be an open line of communication for all involved, be it student, trainer, parent. It should be a team effort. Everyone involved should be looking out for everyones best interest.

I live by, if I broke it I replace it. If I borrow it, I bring it back better then when I borrowed it. If it is in my charge, I am responsible. I wish more people would take responsibility and not just try and pass it off on someone else.

[goeslikestink]

try this senerio
ask yourself whats more important-- a lump of leather or a childs life becuase at the end of the day thats what it boils down to
child would win every time

[Quin]

If the BO means "lesson riders are responsible for damage they negligently cause" then that's what the material needs to say. As it is, it means that the rider is responsible to replace the BO's tack in all cases. Whether it is enforceable or not, it certainly looks bad to me. I agree that the next logical step to this thinking would be that if the horse thows a shoe while you're riding you get to pay to replace that too, or if the horse pulls up lame during a lesson that you owe the vet bill. A 'damages' clause would be appropriate for a long-term lease, not a 1 hour lesson.

If someone had a bad day and wrote this language as a consequence, I would be concerned that they did not have the good judgement to read it over the next morning, laugh, and tear it up.

'Keeps the parents supervising'? Um, no, in fact my trainer bars parents from the stalls, discourages them from being in the aisles unless they are also horsey, and prefers them to stay in the lounge (the RIDER is the one being taught, including grooming and tacking - parents are not there to do it for junior, or to get stepped on because they're clueless and improperly shod for a barn).

Thomas, GLS - yes, in America there are lots of 'lesson barns' where they specialize in beginner to low intermediate lessons. Weekends the trainer may be teaching multiple group lessons back-to-back, and some older lesson students are supervising the newer riders in grooming and tacking before & after each group. The tack is either low cost, old, or both, and may not be as well maintained as would be ideal; it is absolutely not cleaned after each ride and probably not even every day. It is also not falling to pieces or creating an inherently dangerous condition. While each horse may have an individual bridle, most of the saddles are standard trees and selecting which saddle and girth to use has more to do with the size/height of the rider than which horse it is being used on. The horses are not rubbed raw, or bucking in pain, or lame. They are mainly trotting in the lessons and are probably not jumping much higher than 2'. Some lesson riders - not newbies but still once-a-weekers - do eventually get their own saddle; again, just a standard tree. If there's a particular horse that's too big for it the trainer will tell them.

I am glad the OP is going to go observe the barn in question. It might be fine - but that language would raise red flags for me.

[VCT]

I think the point is that while the child is in the lesson, the instructor is supervising. Parents don't necessarily know how tack is supposed to be taken care of.

Yeah, but then the same parents who don't think they need to supervise their kids at the barn at all ALSO don't want tacking/untacking to be part of the kids hour. As in, "I am paying for little Susy to RIDE for the whole hour" etc.

Well, either the kid is capable of un/tacking without supervision responsibly OR they are not and in that case, parents should pay for kids to be supervised by the trainer, or do it themselves. Trainer could be teaching another lesson instead of babysitting your kid.

I personally get pretty sick of people leaving my very nice quality wide tree CC saddle on the concrete barn aisle or on a stall door, etc. I'm sure some of you would suggest that I should get a cheaper saddle that fits my schoolies so I don't have to worry about the high quality one. I tend to think that if people can't respect my property they can go elsewhere.

Best thing to do is readily invite people who think they get to take up half your afternoon when they are paying for a one hour lesson to check out some of the other barns in the area. These types are nothing but a problem and just distract from building a good customer base.

*shrug*

[saultgirl]

try this senerio
ask yourself whats more important-- a lump of leather or a childs life becuase at the end of the day thats what it boils down to
child would win every time

What the heck are you talking about???!!!

[Ambrey]

VCT, I suspect that's why some riding schools (like the one my daughter goes to) have switched to using grooms- because it's just freaking hard to properly supervise kids while they are handling horses and tack (and there's a liability issue there too, I think that part is even more dangerous than the riding!).

[S1969]

Yeah, but then the same parents who don't think they need to supervise their kids at the barn at all ALSO don't want tacking/untacking to be part of the kids hour. As in, "I am paying for little Susy to RIDE for the whole hour" etc.

Well, either the kid is capable of un/tacking without supervision responsibly OR they are not and in that case, parents should pay for kids to be supervised by the trainer, or do it themselves. Trainer could be teaching another lesson instead of babysitting your kid.

I personally get pretty sick of people leaving my very nice quality wide tree CC saddle on the concrete barn aisle or on a stall door, etc. I'm sure some of you would suggest that I should get a cheaper saddle that fits my schoolies so I don't have to worry about the high quality one. I tend to think that if people can't respect my property they can go elsewhere..

*shrug*

I don't know, if kids aren't capable of tacking up themselves, how is having their non-horsey parent going to help them? In many cases, the parent does not know any better than the kid. If the lesson barn doesn't have the ability to help kids tack up, then I'm not sure how they will ever learn? Then again, if you're talking about teenagers who have been riding for a while and have been taught [repeatedly] how to tack up properly....then maybe that's a different story. My 10 year old can tack up by herself but not all of them can do it well/quickly on a busy Saturday which is why my trainer has older students scheduled to help on Saturdays.

Have you told these people who leave your saddle on the floor that they should go elsewhere? Maybe you need to do just that. My trainer has taught for many, many years (30+). She does NOT mince her words. I can't imagine anyone leaving her barn with a saddle still in the aisle. She is wonderful and VERY helpful, but everyone tows the line in her barn or they are asked to leave.

[Linny]

I do understand the "you broke it, you replace it" model but not without reservations. First, while some places have very nice schoolie tack, most do not. If it is high quality it's usually very very old and possibly frayed, tattered, dry or in some other way "about to go.".
I take a lesson on a schoolie once a week. I clean his bridle. I am the only one who does so. If I do something boneheaded and as a result, a piece of tack gets broken, I'll replace it.
The problem is that it's unfair to expect a beginner to replace something if they cannot comprehend the condition of the item before they used it. If a tattered stirrup leather goes, (possibly endangering said beginner) it's hardly the fault of the novice who happened to be the victim of "tack Russian roulette." While I understand the rule in theory I would wonder about the "customer service" side of it. If little Susie's school pony spooks and Susie falls and gets frightened it's bad enough. Getting hit with a bill to replace the rein he stepped on because no one could catch him for 10 minutes seems harsh.

A few years ago at my old barn, I was riding a horse that did a silly head toss thing at times. He wore a standing martingale and his bridle was old, dry and not in great shape. Well, he did the head toss thing and when the tension on the noseband from the martingale reached critical mass, that bridle disintegrated! The noseband snapped, a cheekpiece broke and bit fell out of his mouth. Because they would have to construct a whole new bridle from the dry and dingy "spare parts" box, that was the end of the lesson for me. Guess who ended up constructing the bridle? ME! I spent hours cleaning the parts too, but I was damned if I was going to buy them a new bridle for that!

The fact is that when RIDING, it's pretty hard a damage or break equipment. If there is an accident (bucked off, run away with) something might break but then it becomes a matter of finding fault. Apart from an "incident" if a piece of tack breaks while in use, it was probably flawed or damaged to begin with.
As for tack care in the barn, students should be taught where it belongs be responsible for making sure it is returned properly. I know it can be a pain but problem students who never hang up bridles or who leave saddles on the floor should be dealt with as individuals.

[VCT]

Ambrey - I worked in a lesson barn from 8yrs old on, tacking up the horses for the other kids so I could get a discount on my lessons. So I don't really get the whole deal with kids not being able to do a thing responsibly these days. Just can't get my head around it...

S1969 - If the kid can't tack up they need part of their lesson to be tacking up. Problem is a lot of people don't want THAT instruction to be part of the time that they are paying for. Or they just don't want to bother to learn to groom properly, etc.

Thats not how I operate so those types usually head elsewhere.

[glitterless]

If a student left a saddle in the aisle and it was stepped on and broken, I could see sending home a bill. On the other hand, shouldn't instructors be present when ever a student -- especially a child -- is handling a horse?

I took many lessons as a child. Thankfully I had my horsey parents to scope out barns and help me out, because quite frankly, I was almost always unsupervised in the barn if I was tacking up/untacking for a group lesson.

I did have one instructor who gave me private lessons for awhile. She'd help me catch my horse, and supervise while I tacked up. She was wonderful...but I've had probably 10 instructors/coaches and really only had the one instructor who took that extra time with me.

At another stable, I rode a mare who was stalled outside as she had heaves. My instructor would stop by the stall a few minutes prior to my lesson to make sure we were almost ready, but I don't know what I would have done if my mom didn't know how to tack up a horse!

Thinking back, it's really ridiculous that some lesson barns allow students to roam around unsupervised. Unless the person is a boarder with their own horse, I think that if I were a BO I would insist that students are supervised by staff every single second that they are handling a horse.

[VCT]

As the BO and instructor here... I can't spend 2 hours per student so that they can have supervision from start to finish with the horse. If they are too young to be able to learn to tack up on their own, the options are 1. It's part of their lesson time or 2. Parent learns how to do it.

Typically what I do for an hour lesson for beginners (who are not small children) is first lesson teach them to halter, basic leading, and basic grooming, then I whip the tack on fast and we have about a half hours riding and then I whip the tack off, go over basic grooming again and basic leading for the last 10-15 mins. This goes on until they are capable of catching/haltering/grooming the horse alone. Then they can arrive 15 minutes early and begin independently. Then their lesson starts with me helping them (going more slowly) learning to properly put the tack on, which at this point is usually just the pads and saddle.. progressing to everything except the bridle, once they have all the tack except the bridle down pat, they can come 20-25 mins early, and be ready at their appointed time with a clean horse, saddled, on the cross ties and the student ready to mount. Then we spend the first few minutes of each lesson teaching how to put the bridle on and the last few minutes going over the elusive smooth transition from bridled horse to haltered horse.

Anyways, point being they gradually learn to do it all themselves without it ever eating majorly into their riding time. But if they aren't willing to make the effort, then it either comes out of their lesson time forever, or mom/dad must learn to *properly* do it. And I have had some parents who loved being that involved and were great and it worked out great. As their kids got bigger the kids started doing more and more of it themselves with parents helping with bridling, or lifting the saddle, etc.

Been using that system for 12 years and it has generally worked great. Usually within 1-3 months, depending on how fast they pick up on things, you have a student who is capable of arriving a half hour early and being ready to mount at their lesson time.

The ones who can't be trusted to take care of my property... are told that if they need to be supervised in order to do so, it will come out of their lesson time. Usually they leave.

I had a kid start with me at age 5. By 6 she could do everything except lift the saddle and put on the bridle. And that was ONLY because she was not big enough. By 7 she could do it (on a medium pony with the aid of a crate to stand on). Her mom would supervise her to make sure she stayed safe, but kid knew what went where, not mom. Kid was solid posting trot and half seat at trot at 6 years old, independently - not on the lunge line. At 7 her legs finally got a bit longer and we began cantering. Unfortunately, I ended up moving shortly after that.

[Thomas_1]

It's not the parents job to supervise a child that has come to a Riding School for instruction. Indeed over here you would be likely to lose your Riding Establishments Licence if you had folks 'supervising' who were not competent and trained and defined as "Responsible Persons".

Likewise the Proprietor is the one who sets the standards and requirements and to ensure the health and safety of the general public, customers, employees and horses. Again here, there's minimum standards to meet the requirement of the Riding Establishments Licencing Act.

Furthermore having other pupils or random people keeping an eye out or watching kids because the trained and competent instructor is busy is unacceptable as in TOTALLY unacceptable. Again here that would be in contravention of Child Protection legislation and which you have to comply with to get your Riding Establishment Licence. So that means training on what you should and shouldn't do with regard to managing children and FULL background checks. Here we're a little 'quirky' about having things like child molesters and abusers around kids at riding establishments and the likes!! Hence we seek to try to manage such risk and that includes NOT having anyone and everyone 'helping' the kids at riding schools!

And before anyone jumps on the "democracy and freedom to do just what you want when you want bandwagon", consider this.

Whilst it could be argued that compliance with legislation might be bureaucratic and cumbersome in so far as it's an administrative burden, it must be recognised that anything that sets minimum standards to protect the interests of customers and horses and children in particular should not be objectionable to anyone who actually likes horses and wants to operate professionally and properly.

So kids running round...................
Babysitting...................................
Compensating for parental failures by disciplining unruly children because their parents don't
Strangers or random pupils 'supervising'
Kids unsupervised for part lesson....
Folks aimlessly wondering about outside lesson time
Parents having a go tacking the horses...
Poor housekeeping with stuff lying around.
Shabby/ill-fitting tack & equipment .........
Writing silly uneforceable 'agreements' .....
Customers waiving statutory rights .........
Owners ducking out of their responsibility..

And yes of course we teach pupils how to tack up and untack and at my establishment they do that at each and every lesson and as part of the lesson. That doesn't sit outside of the lesson and it's paid for.

If someone isn't specifically learning how to tack and untack because they're say an advanced or regular pupil then the horse might be ready to go for the time of their lesson start or it might be tacked up at the start. Taking no more than 3 minutes!

But we teach the pupil......... Not some random stranger that happens to bring them to the premises. Even if that person happens to be the parent, as far as I'm concerned they're not the pupil. They've a right to bring their child. They've a right to ensure I'm competent and responsible and going to look after their child and properly supervise and teach him/her.

They've no right to a free lesson in tacking up. They've no right to be wondering radomly around the premises. They're not going to be unpaid help. Whilst their child is having lessons then even though the parent may want to occasionally stay and watch progress and approach, the child is under the supervision of the Instructor here. NO ARGUMENTS.

I actually have specific cover and insurance to teach even tiny toddlers and trust me I've NEVER had the likes of described in this thread with kids leaving bridles or saddles in places they shouldn't be. When they're really tiny toddlers, then staff "help them" when they put things away and normally by the time they're 4 they've got it. And yes they ask to be lifted up to hang the bridle on the rack and it takes 2 to carry a saddle but they know that things get put away and they know why it's important.

I'm a big believer in things like you "take responsibility" and "ask and you shall receive" and "you get what you deserve" and "you make things happen"

That means I set the standard. I ensure staff and customers know what it is. I ensure it's managed with systematic processes in place such as regular inspections of tack and equipment. I ensure that I appoint persons on my behalf who are trained and competent and appreciate the importance of maintenance of standards.

[Transplant]

All the barns I've rode with since starting back have clauses that cover tack replacement for gross negligence but practically speaking, that only covers riding because they don't let you get near the horses until time to get on. They tack and untack for you whether its an adults or children barn. Riders learn the ground stuff when they're interested in their first half-lease and the barns help prepare them for it. I'm fine with the clause and the set up because I'm careful when riding anyway and I won't be able to lease for awhile, though I am interested.

My sister-in-law recently asked for recommendations for her 14 year old and was taken aback by some of the legalese in the contracts. She much preferred a smaller outfit with fewer clauses in the contract where kids could tack up and groom the horses. But she has very limited time and she doesn't even know whether the kid will like riding. They've never been around horses.

The schools I recommended have good well-maintained horses, good instruction and importantly for her, they require less time investment upfront from the client. They haven't had to take recourse to their liability clauses in the recent past. So I told her to give them a try. If the kid really likes it and doesn't want to wait for a lease to be able to groom the horses, then they can figure out where to get the time and she can go to another barn and groom and tack to her heart's content but at least she will have had a good, low-stress start.

[goeslikestink]

What the heck are you talking about???!!!

cheap and nasty tack or ill fitting tack can cause accidents so whom is more important a bit of leather or a child and dont say what about the horse as the child will win every single time
they are minors and should be taken care of in all manners especially when in an enviroment whereby equines are that are and known to be unpredicatable as they have there own brain -

[glitterless]

It's not the parents job to supervise a child that has come to a Riding School for instruction. Indeed over here you would be likely to lose your Riding Establishments Licence if you had folks 'supervising' who were not competent and trained and defined as "Responsible Persons".

Likewise the Proprietor is the one who sets the standards and requirements and to ensure the health and safety of the general public, customers, employees and horses. Again here, there's minimum standards to meet the requirement of the Riding Establishments Licencing Act.

Furthermore having other pupils or random people keeping an eye out or watching kids because the trained and competent instructor is busy is unacceptable as in TOTALLY unacceptable. Again here that would be in contravention of Child Protection legislation and which you have to comply with to get your Riding Establishment Licence. So that means training on what you should and shouldn't do with regard to managing children and FULL background checks. Here we're a little 'quirky' about having things like child molesters and abusers around kids at riding establishments and the likes!! Hence we seek to try to manage such risk and that includes NOT having anyone and everyone 'helping' the kids at riding schools!

And before anyone jumps on the "democracy and freedom to do just what you want when you want bandwagon", consider this.

Whilst it could be argued that compliance with legislation might be bureaucratic and cumbersome in so far as it's an administrative burden, it must be recognised that anything that sets minimum standards to protect the interests of customers and horses and children in particular should not be objectionable to anyone who actually likes horses and wants to operate professionally and properly.

So kids running round...................
Babysitting...................................
Compensating for parental failures by disciplining unruly children because their parents don't
Strangers or random pupils 'supervising'
Kids unsupervised for part lesson....
Folks aimlessly wondering about outside lesson time
Parents having a go tacking the horses...
Poor housekeeping with stuff lying around.
Shabby/ill-fitting tack & equipment .........
Writing silly uneforceable 'agreements' .....
Customers waiving statutory rights .........
Owners ducking out of their responsibility..

And yes of course we teach pupils how to tack up and untack and at my establishment they do that at each and every lesson and as part of the lesson. That doesn't sit outside of the lesson and it's paid for.

If someone isn't specifically learning how to tack and untack because they're say an advanced or regular pupil then the horse might be ready to go for the time of their lesson start or it might be tacked up at the start. Taking no more than 3 minutes!

But we teach the pupil......... Not some random stranger that happens to bring them to the premises. Even if that person happens to be the parent, as far as I'm concerned they're not the pupil. They've a right to bring their child. They've a right to ensure I'm competent and responsible and going to look after their child and properly supervise and teach him/her.

They've no right to a free lesson in tacking up. They've no right to be wondering radomly around the premises. They're not going to be unpaid help. Whilst their child is having lessons then even though the parent may want to occasionally stay and watch progress and approach, the child is under the supervision of the Instructor here. NO ARGUMENTS.

I actually have specific cover and insurance to teach even tiny toddlers and trust me I've NEVER had the likes of described in this thread with kids leaving bridles or saddles in places they shouldn't be. When they're really tiny toddlers, then staff "help them" when they put things away and normally by the time they're 4 they've got it. And yes they ask to be lifted up to hang the bridle on the rack and it takes 2 to carry a saddle but they know that things get put away and they know why it's important.

I'm a big believer in things like you "take responsibility" and "ask and you shall receive" and "you get what you deserve" and "you make things happen"

That means I set the standard. I ensure staff and customers know what it is. I ensure it's managed with systematic processes in place such as regular inspections of tack and equipment. I ensure that I appoint persons on my behalf who are trained and competent and appreciate the importance of maintenance of standards.

Great post, Thomas. And I am all for it over here. I'm in Ontario, Canada and we do have a Riding Establishments Act, but it is not necessary for a riding stable (school) to have any sort of license to operate. Insurance companies do prefer that stables in Ontario are part of the Ontario Equestrian Federation's program which I believe, inspects riding facilities and we do have some laws (minors must wear helmets)...but it sounds like the UK has a much better system.

As ridiculous as it sounds, I probably never gave my junior riding career (if I can call it that LOL) any thought until now. That was just the way things were done. My parents did comment on the lack of cleanliness in facilities and some safety issues, which I now understand, but as a child we really did have the run of most places. When I think back to the one large, public facility, I picture the barn aisle full of kids and horses and not many adults around at all.

This is definitely an eye opening thread. I don't know that I'd be comfortable with my children learning to ride at a public facility now that all these memories have come back. It wasn't the safest set-up to say the least.

[bamboozled]

Indeed over here you would be likely to lose your Riding Establishments Licence if you had folks 'supervising' who were not competent and trained and defined as "Responsible Persons".

And therein lies the rub....in the states, there is no Riding Establishments License.

My friends and I (ex-show moms) can declare ourselves "trainers", hang out a shingle and chant "heels down, eyes up, left leg, left leg, now squeeze and grab mane" all day.