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Who should pay for this?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by onelanerode View Post
    She is still looking around at barns, and I have offered to go with her as she is not a horse person. I don't know much about the barn in question as it is relatively new. The time of day that she stopped by they did not have any beginner lessons going on, and she would like to go back and observe a beginner lesson with their instructor before committing to anything.

    Good idea. Sometimes novices don't even know what questions to ask, you can help there. As well as with how to read those contracts and figure out what they mean if it is not exactly as stated.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

    Comment


    • #22
      Just so you know - I'm still friends with the hard a$$ and since I was the one that spent the most time cleaning those saddles once the horses were gone - well I ended up with a Stubben Rex my daughter is using and a western saddle for the ponies. Now both of these saddles are closer to 50 years old and both are very usable. Both have been checked and rechecked for wear and tear. On the pony saddle I had a leather cinch replaced, but both saddles could very easily go into the show ring.

      As for wear and tear, well if the kids were taught from the start correctly, they would know if a leather needed replaced. They would know if a cinch was getting worn. Tack should be checked each time used and if there is a problem well it should be addressed at that time.

      I would say in a contract that the stable replaces normal wear and tear, but if a leather gets ripped because someone didn't run-up the iron or if a horse steps on a rein well that is carelessness and should be the riders responsibility.

      Good tack that is maintained and oiled and taken care of (ie. no mud left on a saddle) should last many many years.
      The View from Here

      Comment


      • #23
        I agree on the principle being good but the wording poor. A lesson student shouldn't be charged for an accident where a saddle or reins break as part of normal equine craziness. I like the idea of holding them responsible for making sure tack is respected and taken care of. If I cause damage to tack I borrow because I don't clean it, put it away properly, run stirrups up, etc., I should be held responsible for my negligence.
        "Remain relentlessly cheerful."

        Graphite/Pastel Portraits

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        • #24
          I have mixed feelings on the issue. On the one hand, like others have posted, the idea that negligence among kids happens, and they should replace stuff they break makes perfect sense.
          On the other, the verbage used sounds supiciously like a horse rental place contract. The kind where ladies in high heels and no hats can rent a horse and gallop him silly for $15, and as long as the money is paid no one cares. So its not the policy I question, but the barn implenting the policy.
          Do not take anything to heart. Do not hanker after signs of progress. Founder of the Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

          Comment


          • #25
            I teach lessons and yes, students are told up front that if their negligence causes tack to get broken they will pay for it. I do not make enough money with lessons to afford new tack.

            Basically I teach my kids from day one that reins never leave your hand and never touch the ground and that does the trick.
            glimmerling


            Member Appaloosa lovers clique

            Comment


            • #26
              I agree that the lesson riders should be responsible for the tack. Now I would go over the tack and contract before signing or giving any money. I have seen how some of the 4-H members treat their tack and I couldn't get away with that, my dad made me appreciate every little piece I got and I took great care of the stuff. I still have a few things, others got sold or given for others to use. So make them responsible kids and take care of their tack!!
              Proud Owner of Acertifiable Sonny 1996 AQHA Sorrel Gelding
              -- I loff my QH Clique

              Comment


              • #27
                I would have to agree that the contract reads just a little too much on the side of ambiguity. I think it is a good idea to have something that holds students responsible for poor habits, but I think there should also be some clarification of what constitutes "damaged by student" vs. just plain worn out. Leather doesn't always give you a warning buzzer when it's going to break. I was using barn tack during an ON FARM competition, and the right stirrup leather broke while I was going over a jump, and the BO wanted me to pay to replace it as soon as the show was done. I told her NO, and that the leather should have been replaced long before it ever broke while I was riding with the saddle.

                So, parent....take note; discuss your concern with the BO/BM and make sure you understand what is expected on both sides. When you see an agreement clause like this, it is usually because there was a major problem before, which gives them reason to want to cover it if the same thing happens again.

                Just talk to them and ask why.

                Happy Riding!

                Comment


                • #28
                  [QUOTE=onelanerode;3923460]Acquaintance is looking for lesson barn for her young daughter, a beginner rider. She visited a barn that sounded promising and came home with info packet about beginner lesson program. Everything seemed fairly standard. She then read the rules/policies for the program and came across this:

                  School horse tack is the responsibility of the rider for the duration of rider's lesson (includes tacking/untacking). Should tack be damaged/destroyed/rendered unusable, rider is responsible for covering cost of repair or replacement.

                  What the heck?? I've never seen anything like this before. Is this common? I had always figured that sometimes $hit happens, a rider falls off, the horse gets away, steps through reins and breaks them. That's the cost of doing business, and that's why schoolie tack is usually functional and fits the horse but is also decidedly not fancy/really high quality and often mismatched. I suppose I could see charging a rider who is old enough to know better and is just being repeatedly careless.


                  redflag-- are they insured with public liability insurance

                  do they have a notice of it on thier walls or notice baord

                  if someone had that in a cluase such as you hae found out i would question wether they have any insurance at all
                  plus one would hope that tacking and untacking is supervised or done by a member of staff
                  and not a beginner they are there to learn not to put themselves in a pontential hazzard situation they cant handle or have been taught in otherwords
                  they have not taken the health and safety issues of all cleints and all animals into account

                  any tack thats deemed unsafe shouldnt be put on a horse or pony
                  any tack should be inspected before usage
                  via a member of staff

                  so i would say -- run
                  Last edited by goeslikestink; Mar. 5, 2009, 05:39 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Umm..It's the right thing to do.

                    If I break a power tool that I've paid a rental fee on, I'm responsible for the cost of repair.

                    If a friend borrows a clipper and overheats or drops it , she pays repair costs...and it's unspoken.

                    No questions, she takes my clipper and gets it done right, with a smile and apology.

                    It actually looks like a great way to get and keep Parents supervising....And Learning.
                    *************************
                    Go, Baby, Go......
                    Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Absolutely ridiculous!

                      The cost and provision of equipment for provision of a service is the responsibility of the proprietor of the business.

                      Furthermore it's absolutely stark staring bonkers as in negligent and risky and possibly illegal to attempt to transfer responsibility to the customer for the duration of that paid service.

                      Likewise if something bizarre happens and the tack is damaged during the lesson, then unless absolute negligence can be proven........ doubtful when the pupil by definition is under supervised training........ then the owner is responsible.

                      These sort of waiver orders are never valid at law and are the sort of things folks are often advised not to worry about because even if you sign them, the law says "unenforcable contract".

                      You can't get someone to waiver what are statutory rights.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I've not seen a clause like that beforem but I've not looked for school horse lessons in a bajillion years either. I would say if something is broken by gross negligence of the rider, then said rider should in good faith replace it. Otherwise it is the cost of doing business that the barn occasionally has to replace equipment. That is one of the reasons you charge for the lessons.

                        At the last barn I was at, the dumba$$ trainer/owner was not paying attention while lunging my horse. When she went to change direction, horse stepped on lunge line and broke the line. I don't know if the trainer was peeved that I did not replace the lunge line, but I was pretty pissed that she was so careless, and quite frankly happy that it was the lunge line that broke and not my Stubben bridle.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I have seen this many times. It is not uncommon.

                          There are the kids that tend to leave things lying around. It teaches responsiblility to kids about looking after what is not theirs, but in their charge. It also teaches kids to look at the tack to make sure it is in good repair. If it is not safe, it should be brought to the attention of the trainer.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                            Absolutely ridiculous!

                            The cost and provision of equipment for provision of a service is the responsibility of the proprietor of the business.

                            Furthermore it's absolutely stark staring bonkers as in negligent and risky and possibly illegal to attempt to transfer responsibility to the customer for the duration of that paid service.

                            Likewise if something bizarre happens and the tack is damaged during the lesson, then unless absolute negligence can be proven........ doubtful when the pupil by definition is under supervised training........ then the owner is responsible.

                            These sort of waiver orders are never valid at law and are the sort of things folks are often advised not to worry about because even if you sign them, the law says "unenforcable contract".

                            You can't get someone to waiver what are statutory rights.
                            I think it is bonkers also. I'd be concerned that this barn didn't monitor the children. I know that all barns aren't like Sa-Hi, where I learned to ride and the horses were tacked up and waiting for us when we got there, and taken from us when we finished the lesson. No way we could have been negligent in small classes with constant supervision.
                            I boarded at a barn in 2001-2002 where the kids who were older tacked up the ponies and horses for younger lessons students and all these kids were very careful with old and falling apart tack, and even that BO watched everyone and didn't charge anyone for broken tack. And she was cheap as heck.
                            Next thing, the kids will be responsible for vet bills if the ponies or horses go lame while they are riding them in a lesson (not leasing). Oh wait, someone's probably already thinking of that.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by onelanerode View Post
                              School horse tack is the responsibility of the rider for the duration of rider's lesson (includes tacking/untacking). Should tack be damaged/destroyed/rendered unusable, rider is responsible for covering cost of repair or replacement.
                              LOL, I think I took a lesson at that place too. That wasn't the only thing that was a bit over the top in the packet....it was very intimidating and I can only imagine that the BO had been taken advantage of in a bad way at some point. Supposedly it was to make you inspect your tack before mounting -- e.g. "oh, this stirrup leather is about to break!" -- but the tone of the entire packet where I took a trial lesson was not warm and friendly, and smacked of "the BO once had to pay for damages someone else caused"!

                              Needless to say, I kept looking.

                              Teaching students to care for tack is part of the barn's responsibility, and if done right and given proper places to tack up, it's unlikely a kid is going to put their saddle down in a puddle. Expecting any and all items to be replaced if they break is not appropriate. If a stirrup leather breaks, it is probably old. If a rider is dumped and the horse steps through the reins and breaks them - that is the cost of doing business.

                              If the kid leaves the stall door open and the horse eats his bridle....well, maybe talk about how to repair/replace it...and that certainly IS a good lesson.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Without seeing this place, and their tack room and the standards held in the rest in the barn....I would suspect that lesson kids here in the past have done things such as : toss the bridle on the aisle floor before turning out the pony, leave halters out in the fields, leave saddles hanging on fences, etc.

                                Not uncommon in some large lesson barns (at least around here) where kids are being rushed by a parent waiting in the car to get home or off to their next scheduled activity. A lot of the kids just don't care and some parents think a riding lesson is a 60 minute activity.

                                So actually, I'd be happy to have a beginner lesson barn enforce it.

                                However, I'd suggest they add the phrase '"due to negligence of the rider". We've all ridden at one time or another in crappy lesson tack with rotting leathers, flocking coming out, ill-fitting bridles, slipping pads, etc. Safe and correctly fitting tack is the responsibility of the barn.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  So actually, I'd be happy to have a beginner lesson barn enforce it.
                                  I don't actually know what a "Beginner Lesson Barn" is. I presume though you mean a Riding School that has pupils. Some of whom are children and some of whom are total novices and new to horses and riding.

                                  Now I have pupils like that..... quite a few in fact.

                                  I reiterate....... Having them unsupervised is stark staring bonkers and negligent. Allowing them to be in a position where they could wreck your tack and equipment and cause an accident to your horse or to themselves is stupid and negligent.

                                  We've all ridden at one time or another in crappy lesson tack with rotting leathers, flocking coming out, ill-fitting bridles, slipping pads, etc. Safe and correctly fitting tack is the responsibility of the barn.
                                  What is "crappy lesson tack" !!! You clearly need to raise your expectation if you think there is such a thing. You'd never, ever ever find any of that at my place. Personally speaking I've never ridden with rotting leathers, ill fitting bridle or bad fitted saddle. I'm not understanding why you, or anyone, would want to pay to ride and reward someone for such practice.

                                  Originally posted by JRG
                                  There are the kids that tend to leave things lying around. It teaches responsiblility to kids about looking after what is not theirs, but in their charge. It also teaches kids to look at the tack to make sure it is in good repair. If it is not safe, it should be brought to the attention of the trainer.
                                  That's why you don't leave kids unsupervised! That's why you teach them and tell them why it's important to tidy away and put things in their proper place. That's why you praise them when they do and that's why you ensure they do it each and every time they attend and to reinforce the important message.

                                  Kids don't however earn money and so if a charge is levied it's actually on the parent so no consequence to the child! No teaching responsibility there! It's just a charge for damage caused because the riding school didn't provide proper supervision. If as a parent, I was told my child had been allowed to dump or leave something where it shouldn't be then I'd be livid and be motivated to have a full and frank conversation with the Trainer about what being a "responsible person" and "competent trainer" and "providing adequate and appropriate supervision" meant. I'd also be telling them they could stick their charge (and future custom) where the sun don't shine!

                                  Whilst of course a trainee should be taught how to check and inspect tack, they should NEVER be finding stuff that isn't safe - unless it's been deliberately set up as a training assessment exercise. That's the responsibility of the proprietors who through their trained and competent staff should carry out routine and regular inspections of tack and equipment and ensure it's fit for purpose and either properly maintained or thrown away or if retained to be used to train it should be kept somewhere where it can't be used in error

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    here here thomas

                                    if one allows bad tack to be used on horses and ponies
                                    doesnt that tell you something-

                                    as to the care and management of the yards or barns etc

                                    it would mean the horse working in pain
                                    signs are bad back, girth galls, sore withers ,etc the horse is not going in a manner it should
                                    ie hollow up,, rear , buck, spook. and also lameness can develope from ill fitting tack
                                    think-- if a back is hurting then the horse has to compensate for that somewhere to be mobile so
                                    if a horse is dragging its toes or shows hind leg lameness can be a false illussion as it could be his back

                                    kids - having kids unsupervised is asking for trouble not just with just plonking down tack
                                    but generally getting in the way or mucking about where they shouldnt be
                                    or trying to catch something then getting hurt in the process
                                    its not on ---- kids lives are just as important as adults if not more so as they are innocnet parties by being a child and that child is the future of today and tomorrow

                                    strict protocol- yards schools barns arnt playgrounds they have horses and other equines and each has a brian and are unpridicatable if the horses are out for expsample
                                    then those horse revert back as to there space - there herd there world
                                    to ask a kid to enter such worlds can be deemed dangerous especially a novice or a beginner be that adult or child

                                    i am what you might deem as beginners yard as i teach th odd one or two be it adult or child but
                                    we are as me and my daughter are expreicned trianers A- my daughters qualied instructor, B- my yard is bhs approved and as a livery yard C- is insured with same company my horses are under with the bhs
                                    in other word i work in strict protocol



                                    at no time are they allowed to play ----- as in use my yard as a playground
                                    its not one its a working livery yard -

                                    if they want to play then go to a playground not a yard that has equines

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                                      That's why you don't leave kids unsupervised! That's why you teach them and tell them why it's important to tidy away and put things in their proper place. That's why you praise them when they do and that's why you ensure they do it each and every time they attend and to reinforce the important message.

                                      Kids don't however earn money and so if a charge is levied it's actually on the parent so no consequence to the child! No teaching responsibility there!
                                      Ideally they should always be supervised, however what one parents idea of supervision may not be the other parents idea of supervision. As for kids earning money, they do all the time in all sorts of ways. Last year I had a lovely young lady clean my tack (with the approval of her parents) which gave her the opportunity to part lease her pony. And yes, parents should be responsible for the actions of their children.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        top this

                                        At a local teaching barn they tell the lessons kids to buy their own saddles ! And parents actually did.
                                        I don't know how they got away with that. Must have made the local tack shop really happy.
                                        I've never seen or heard of that anywhere else.
                                        I wonder if they are still saying that these days, I doubt it.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by JRG View Post
                                          And yes, parents should be responsible for the actions of their children.
                                          You mean, if child forgets to fasten the girth and saddle falls off on way to arena? Or kid tries to take all tack back to tack room with arms full and steps through reins and breaks them? How is this the parents' responsibility? If you mean parents shouldn't allow kids to be running and screaming through the aisles of the barn, I'd say that's the trainer's responsibility, too. Aside from getting my child to her lesson prepared and on time, I'm not sure I can be responsible for much more.

                                          I agree with Thomas 100%. If taught how to tack up and prepare properly, the chances of these things happening are much less likely. And when I say kids, I'm talking 9, 10, 11. My 10 year old does not *work* so special arrangements would have to be made for her to earn money to replace something, otherwise it comes from my pocket.

                                          Where my dd and I ride, the tack is old. It's in decent shape, but saddles are scratched, some have mismatched leathers, etc. If my child dropped a saddle in the mud somehow, the trainer would not expect compensation. Cleaning it, yes. A small lecture, I'm sure. But this is the cost of doing business. They ARE children, after all. And no matter what the age, accidents do happen.

                                          I can't really think of a scenario where someone would act in such a negligent way that tack would be damaged and need replacing...someone [trainer, barn worker, older student] is always around to check that the barn aisle has been cleared of all tack after each lesson, doors closed, halters off.....what am I missing?

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