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The death of a horse business

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  • #41
    Niche markets can work on a small scale. Trouble is your customer base is the upper end of the income spectrum as they are the only ones who can afford to pay the niche market prices. As this class shrinks it will put pressure on the market. The Law of Supply And Demand has not yet been repealed.

    I posted the MN link to debunk a lot of the assumptions I see regarding agricultural economics. I'm not a fan of "factory farming" but it exists because it is profitable. "Family farming" is much less so. If you regulate in favor of "family farming" all you'll really do is raise prices. If you mandate "humane regulations" you'll just raise prices. Again, this Rx from Dr. Feelgood will not have a positive practical effect and its "unintended consequences" will likely be massive.

    We are an industrial society (or maybe even a post-industrial society). We may not like this but we mess with it at our peril.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by stryder View Post
      SCORE is free. You can find it through the US Small Business Administration.
      Also free are the services of the Small Business Development Centers at many community colleges.
      Advice from SCORE may be free (although I didn't think so) but their courses definitely COST money. They advertise the prices in the local paper.

      Small Business Development Centers are associate with colleges & universities. Some may be associated with community colleges but the one in Delaware, for example, is associated with the University of Delaware. They are free.

      Comment


      • #43
        "Those who demand a return to them are Luddites."

        Holy COW! Somebody actually used a real peice of historical vocabulary..."How cool is that?" (Rachael Ray)


        Sadly, horses are luxury items...well, not really but many people will treat them as if they're a motorcycle or snowmobile vs. a living animal.

        Many businesses are not well run, poorly capitalized and run on dumb luck...and close within 3 years...this doesn't sound it applies here. Sometimes the market isn't there anymore...as she said, she's had clients for 20 years...but too many kids aren't going into riding nowadays, the pool is smaller for customers, the internet has killed some local tack shops (some of whom deserved to die anyway).

        As people have asked...just what services/goods are being offered and not bought?
        "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

        Comment


        • #44
          I agree 100%.

          If the small family farm could feed over 300 million people and the rest of the world we'd still be doing it.

          Hey Trak - I've heard the term "neo-Luddites".

          Which appears to be a contradiction if you think about it.


          Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
          Niche markets can work on a small scale. Trouble is your customer base is the upper end of the income spectrum as they are the only ones who can afford to pay the niche market prices. As this class shrinks it will put pressure on the market. The Law of Supply And Demand has not yet been repealed.

          I posted the MN link to debunk a lot of the assumptions I see regarding agricultural economics. I'm not a fan of "factory farming" but it exists because it is profitable. "Family farming" is much less so. If you regulate in favor of "family farming" all you'll really do is raise prices. If you mandate "humane regulations" you'll just raise prices. Again, this Rx from Dr. Feelgood will not have a positive practical effect and its "unintended consequences" will likely be massive.

          We are an industrial society (or maybe even a post-industrial society). We may not like this but we mess with it at our peril.

          G.
          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
          -Rudyard Kipling

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by equineartworks View Post
            Not always so. Yes I do agree it is about filling the niche, but the small farmer of today is much more business saavy than previous generations. I have a waiting list of restaurants who pay me dearly to ship them eggs via express mail. And others who pay me dearly for the obscure herbs and vegetables we plant each year.
            We definitely need more small farms offering specialty products. I think there will be more demand for old fashioned clean/grass raised animals and products from those animals. I spent hours on the internet on eatwild.com the other night trying to find someone who could ship poultry or had poultry raised in the traditional small farm way that was close to me. 90% of all these sorts of places are in Northern VA, Western VA or near Raleigh NC...hours from here. There is one tiny little farm in Suffolk offering these sorts of products and they are mostly sold out. How frustrating if you really do want to avoid eating factory farmed meat...and I don't agree that it's anywhere near as good for the animals as traditional farms.

            I've had moments of insanity where I've considered raising my own chickens for eggs and meat also which I may have to do if I wish to avoid eating salmonela with each meal. I can find grass fed beef and hogs but chicken/poultry is a lot harder for some crazy reason.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
              \
              I've had moments of insanity where I've considered raising my own chickens for eggs and meat also which I may have to do if I wish to avoid eating salmonela with each meal. I can find grass fed beef and hogs but chicken/poultry is a lot harder for some crazy reason.
              Hey DB - you're not insane.

              There is a reason you have trouble finding poultry in this state. Regulation and insurance.

              A producer can obtain a poultry exempt permit to conduct on-site slaughter of poultry for human consumption.

              It is difficult to obtain insurance. It is very expensive and only makes business sense if you process large numbers of poultry. Most producers process a hundred or two at most. Farm Bureau wants clients to take them to a USDA inspected processor but many producers live too far away or the cost is prohibitive.

              It may very well be that the producers that you see selling processed poultry are doing so without liability insurance. It is an enormous risk they are taking - but it appears some producers mistakenly believe their farm policy covers them. It doesn't.

              If you would like to learn how to process your own poultry, safely and humanely, I would be happy to teach you. Or I could help you locate a good person in your area that could advise you.
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


              • #47
                The assumption that "old fashioned" techniques for raising livestock produces "cleaner and healtier" food is unsubstantiated.

                Again, go back in history 100 years of so (prior to the development of modern vet. medicines) and you'll find that many diseases we don't worry about today were routinely transmitted by animal products (TB in raw milk and trichanosis (sp) in raw pork are the best examples I can think of at the moment). Losses to farmers were also quite large if a disease got loose in a herd, flock, gaggle, etc.

                The idea that "grass fed" is better than "feed lot fed" is, again, a Myth that we love to repeat. It has no demonstrated basis in reality. The reality is that feed lot finishing produces a higher quality meat that better meets consumer demand.

                There is a demand for grass fed beef, but it's quite small relative to overall market. And I'd be interested to know how anybody could meet the demand for fresh, grass fed products in Boston, Philly, or NYC. It takes roughly one acre to graze one cow/calf pair in that part of the world. Take a look at land prices and do some math. I think you'll find that you'd have to get well north of $10/lb. for hamburger to make a profit "raising locally" in any heavily populated region. That might be why all those "natural chicken producers" are where they are.

                Once again the present structure of food production in the U.S. offends the sensibilities of many, but we have an incredibly safe and productive food system. We also pay some of the lowest prices for food (relative to total outlay or living expenses) in the world. And the variety available even in more rural areas is amazing.

                Turing back the clock by mandating through regulation historic practices sounds really cool and would give lots of warm fuzzies. Until, of course, you got to the dinner table. Then you might have second thoughts.

                G.
                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                Comment


                • #48
                  Getting back to the original poster's topic, if you haven't done so yet, sell on the internet and ebay. You will reach a wider audience.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                    Hey DB - you're not insane.

                    If you would like to learn how to process your own poultry, safely and humanely, I would be happy to teach you. Or I could help you locate a good person in your area that could advise you.
                    Oh Thank You! I helped slaughter chickens as a kid on the farm I grew up on but it's been over 30 years and I hate to think of the mess I'd make trying to dress a chicken.

                    I really do appreciate the offer of help and will probably get some chicks this Spring to raise...perhaps a heritage breed also. Didn't you say you had some kind of heritage breed? I may need to start a topic later on the Around the Farm and we can discuss it there without hijacking this topic.

                    Thanks also for the explanation of why it's so hard to find poultry in VA. Could growers band into a coop of sorts and try and get some kind of group insurance I wonder?

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                      The assumption that "old fashioned" techniques for raising livestock produces "cleaner and healtier" food is unsubstantiated.

                      Once again the present structure of food production in the U.S. offends the sensibilities of many, but we have an incredibly safe and productive food system. We also pay some of the lowest prices for food (relative to total outlay or living expenses) in the world. And the variety available even in more rural areas is amazing.

                      G.
                      I disagree. Why are we warned constantly to cook all our meat thoroughly to avoid E Coli or Salmonella infections? A large part of that problem is due to the way the animals are farmed in confinement as well as the high speed processing of the animals and filth and fecal material getting on the meat....not to mention the fact that USDA inspectors have very little real authority anymore in declaring meat unsafe or if they even get a chance to look at it as it whizzes past at 3 carcasses a second.

                      Many animals also are given antibiotics and hormone implants to force grow them to market readiness. The jury is still out on how damaging that is to us and the environment but I think it's a bit shortsighted to not worry what effects it might have on us.

                      Price is relative. I'd rather pay more and know the animal was raised and handled humanely and even got to lay in the sun once in a while in it's short life. Some people don't care and they want that cheap meat...and that is their choice.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I kinda agree with both of you.

                        How's that for being namby pamby!

                        I don't believe there is inherently anything wrong with preserving what is good about the "old-fashioned" way of doing things with the "new-fashioned" way that relies upon technology.

                        The lowly egg is a prime example.

                        The lowly egg that is mass produced cooks differently than an egg produced from a grass fed/free range chicken.

                        It's up to the individual to decide which egg they prefer. But having cooked breads and pastries with a grass fed chicken egg and a standard egg - wow. Taste, texture, all incredibly different.

                        Same with chicken. The taste and texture of grass fed is simply wonderful. No dry chicken breasts, wonderfully dressed out chickens - make even the worst cook look good.

                        Same with any meat.

                        But it does taste different and some people won't like it, which is ok. No one is forcing anyone to eat grass fed meat.

                        It's nice to have a choice about what one puts in their body, especially if the person is very health conscious or has food intolerance, or follow strict religious edicts.

                        I don't think there is anything good or bad about a particular choice - I'm just glad we are able to make choices.

                        I gave some eggs to a neighbor and she hated them. Said they tasted funny and the color was weird. (the yolks were bright orange). Oh well. No biggie.
                        I didn't go home and cry or think she was playing into Big Ag's greedy plan to take over the world.

                        DB - there are efforts being made to try and improve things for small producers and Farm Bureau is making it a priority. I have no doubt eventually we'll come to a solution that is workable. There are wool pools for small producers - cashmere, alpaca and such.

                        One option I would very much like to see is a mobile processor. county has one in his area and I'm very jealous. That's an option as is having a local processor set up to handle poultry. We just have to make the numbers work.

                        Anyhoo - sorry to derail the thread and maybe all the crazy chicken ladies can have a nice chat sometime. I enjoy raising my own food and selling a few shares to help pay the bills. It's a lot of work but hey - we all march to the beat of a different drummer, right?
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Reply

                          I want to thank all and I want to especially thank you for all the PMs. I know I'm not in this alone. It's also comforting to know that I'm not the only one sitting here with the phone and fax as quiet as all get out.

                          I don't want to reveal anything about my business because the industry is so small if it gets around we're thinking of closing then well, that's the death knell. And, we'll surely close then.

                          We have one more thing up our sleeve and I'll try that if it doesn't work, I will then close. We are currently enrolled in courses to help with my previous line of work and updating my knowledge so we're on that.

                          I have been to SCORE but most (in our area) are not knowledgeable about horse or inventory based businesses. It was best to muddle through elsewhere.

                          I do feel more hopeful today. A good night's rest and encouragement from piers always helps!

                          All I can say is Buy American from small local businesses if you can! And, thank you all! And for the 20 years in business and all the consumers (mainly kids who now maybe 35 years old or so) who had used our product at some point thank you! Enjoy your horses, encourage others to ride and again, buy American/local! Bye.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            The assumption that "old fashioned" techniques for raising livestock produces "cleaner and healtier" food is unsubstantiated.
                            is it? look at the nutritional content of "old fashioned" free-range eggs here compared to factory eggs, look at Table 4: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/11/3065S

                            it's been substantiated over and over that free-range, free-fed animals have a different nutritional profile when eaten compared to grain-fattened factory farmed animals. A much healthier nutritional profile.
                            Course it's a LOT cheaper to raise factory-farm grain-fattened food than natural, healthy foods. Most of us wouldn't be able to afford the healthier meats and eggs.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Everyone is feeling the crunch now, whether self-employed or working for some corporate entity.
                              Like others have said - is there any way you can change your approach to getting/keeping customers?
                              Take your business to local barns?
                              Mailorder?
                              Internet?

                              Without knowing exactly what product or service you offer it's hard to zero in on specific ways that might help.

                              Hey! You posted on a site full of horsepeople. Think of us as potential new customers
                              *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
                              Steppin' Out 1988-2004
                              Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
                              Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                This economy sucks. I live in NJ and have a small family horse farm. I have 5 horses of my own and board 4 others, that pay for mine. One horse is my main lesson horse, (anyone can ride him) one is w/t broke (when the weather is better he will be finished and then can be another lesson horse), and the others are ridden by more advanced riders, and the last one is a pasture pet until i can get his lyme disease/issues under control.

                                Problem is most of my clients had to stop with lessons and my training their horses b/c of the economy. One boarders' hubby lost his job, but she is ok as her horse is part leased and that pays most of the bills. Another boarder 'pays when she can" which is royally screwing up our usual plan for getting hay/grain/shavings, but she's been a good boarder and is having job issues as well.

                                I had to start another job because of this. Thankfully i do it from home (i started selling horse tack/equipment) and it has started to really help pay the bills. I am not breaking the bank by any means, but i am not in the red or borderline, anymore.

                                I had a lot of people tell me to go out and get another job, but im the only person at my farm (it's family run..i do the horses, my mom is retired and helps, and my dad still has a full time job) that can physically get all the paddocks cleaned/horses moved at night in the winter, so i couldnt go out and get a typical 9-5 job. So i had to do something else.

                                There are a number of farms in my area that are just breaking even. There have also been rumors (hopefully will stay rumors) of the gov. wanting to start taxing per horse you board. Which would then cause our board rates to go way up, and then we'd lose boarders. It sucks.

                                So i am hoping that it gets better. lol. my mom says that the stimulus package should be the gov. giving each american $1 million. not the companies, but the americans. Then those americans will pay off their mortgages, but houses, buy cars, put it in the bank etc. THAT will stimulate and save the economy. Not bailing out companies that screwed it up in the first place. (i could go on a really nice vacation...buy my neighbors house...expand my farm...put up an indoor/fencing/larger barn....lol) see? save the economy.


                                jen
                                www.rivendellhorsefarm.com/tackpage.html

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
                                  Could growers band into a coop of sorts and try and get some kind of group insurance I wonder?
                                  Not a co-op but a group you might want to check out is the Virginia Independent Consumers and Farmers Association (www.vicfa.net); also the Virginia Association of Biological Farmers. You can certainly get some info and ideas and maybe some contacts for your backyard poultry.
                                  If thou hast a sorrow, tell it not to the arrow, tell it to thy saddlebow, and ride on, singing. -- King Alfred the Great

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    OP it must be really tough for you-especially having been in it for twenty years. So hugs and support to you. But just my experience there is an ebb and flow to things and some times, when I was absolutely devastated about how things turned out, a few years later I was so glad it turned out that way. Nobody has a crystal ball . You do your best and if it works great , if not -at least in my experience-after a few years I was so glad it didn't.

                                    It is a tough economic climate right now. yeah the spending is high right now-but I am happy that they are spening on rebuilding America rather than rebuilding Iraq! We are just working through the excesses. During the boom years, many of my friends did not view credit as something to be eventually paid back. Debt became another form of income. Now I was reading that the savings rate has gone from zero to 5%. But that also limits spending.

                                    Also good or bad , the crisis finally has hit the top folks so now at least they have a clue. Take Bank of America. They offshored their entire IT team. They brought the whole offshore team and forced the employees to train them and then fired everybody. Can you imagine being forced to train the guy you know is goping to replace you, because if you don't you will loose your severance benefits. Now all of a sudden, they go with their begging bowl to the govt and their dumb CEO is complaining about the limits on management bonus-I will fire whole teams who have been in the company for decades,just to cut costs-but oh no you can't limit my pay to just half a million a year-just give me a few billions no conditions attached.

                                    Lets see how this turns out ..

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I don't really have that much to add here, except:

                                      JSwan and TwoFatPonies, I love reading your posts. I hope you both write books some day.

                                      OP, sorry things aren't going well - I wish you the best!

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Just touching base on what has been discussed, traditionally produced or "natural" or "organic" is not any safer or less safe, according to the studies done with the regular testing the USDA performs on all:

                                        http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/f...sC.shtml#BuyC5

                                        Go to paragraph five for more details.

                                        As for "grass fed beef", sorry, it is still fed grain, just on grass pastures.
                                        Truly grass only fed beef would not be acceptable for any other than gound meat and even then the taste is questionable to many.

                                        The trouble with grass feed beef is that the cattle spend all the time laying by the bunk, waiting for their next meal, just as they do in a feedlot pen and using about as much room per head as in a pen.
                                        The kind of cattle that are fed, that are not the cows and calves, don't need to roam, are perfectly happy staying where there is food, water and a few other cattle to see.

                                        To the OP, I am sure you have already thought of this, but could you not reinvent yourself and change your line of products to something more than what kids would use, since so many of today's horse people are adults?

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I disagree, Bluey

                                          Farmers around here have had tremendous success raising grass fed and finished beef. A friend of mine has her own Angus breeding program that is pretty interesting and there are several Devon operations in the area. Devon finish beautifully on grass.

                                          What works out here is not going to work in all parts of the US, particularly in arid regions. Here some operations go with grass fed, grain finished - but only grain produced on their farm. Others go with organic grain - others prefer to finish on grass. Same with pork. Some finish their pigs in the woods, some on pasture, some on grain. Depends on the operation.

                                          There is tremendous variety available in the US, depending upon one's location. The educated consumer should know the difference between grass fed, grass finished, free range, organic and natural, etc. I agree. And nothing about those methods are necessarily safer or more humane.

                                          But animals can actually live, and thrive, without ingesting anything but what is considered normal for their species.

                                          Not everyone will like the taste. But that's true of every food product. They may finish more slowly, or not reach what mainstream ag considers good market weight. Some producers slaughter earlier that grain finished producers. Some breeds may run to leaner or fattier carcasses.

                                          There is less consistency and it's more expensive. Many consumers would dislike that. Fair enough. Americans are truly blessed to have access to healthy nutritious food at a cheap price. We're also fortunate to have so many choices.


                                          For the OP - again my apologies. I have no doubt things are tough and I've been there too. Like all crises in life......it will pass. Hang in there. Retrench. Do not despair - and keep an eye out for opportunity.

                                          It.... will..... pass.


                                          Druid Acres - you're too funny. I get testy sometimes but I'm glad there is at least one person that reads my posts!






                                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                          As for "grass fed beef", sorry, it is still fed grain, just on grass pastures.
                                          Truly grass only fed beef would not be acceptable for any other than gound meat and even then the taste is questionable to many.

                                          The trouble with grass feed beef is that the cattle spend all the time laying by the bunk, waiting for their next meal, just as they do in a feedlot pen and using about as much room per head as in a pen.
                                          The kind of cattle that are fed, that are not the cows and calves, don't need to roam, are perfectly happy staying where there is food, water and a few other cattle to see.

                                          To the OP, I am sure you have already thought of this, but could you not reinvent yourself and change your line of products to something more than what kids would use, since so many of today's horse people are adults?
                                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                          -Rudyard Kipling

                                          Comment

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