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Space Shuttle Disaster

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  • Oh, I can't help myself, I have to post a point of disagreement with you pt.

    A hundred years ago the middle class, as we know it, certainly did not exist. There was, of course, a middle class, but it was small, compared to the great masses of the poor and disadvantaged.

    1903 was before child labor laws, before extensive unionization, and before significant mechanization of farm labor. Twelve hours days, six days a week were common. And, that paid for your subsistance, not for the second car, the horse used exclusively for recreation, the steak, the central heating, the tv's, the computers, etc., that all of us take for granted today. One hundred years ago most people worked for the clothes on their backs, the housing to keep themselves out of the elements, and the food for their stomachs, they didn't even consider "little luxuries".

    I was fortunate enough to have an older father, who remembered those days well, and remembered the stories that his mother told about what life was like in the late 1800's. He hadn't considered himself as disadvantaged, by any means, but he constantly marvelled at the plenty that surrounded him in his later years. That generation has largely died out, but, talk to the generation that grew up during the depression, and went to fight WWII. They will tell you some truely fascinating, and horrifying stories.

    IMHO the middle class as a modern day entity did not develop until after WWII. The last fifty years of the Twentieth Century has been a period of plenty, not experienced by great numbers of "common" people in any period of time that I can think of. There have been periods of plenty before, certainly, but that plenty was not shared by the great majority of people.

    Sure, there are plenty of poor and disadvantaged people in the USA today, but, not nearly as many as there were in 1903, comparatively speaking. It is my belief that we have come a long way in the period of flight exploration.

    You have many good points, pt (and loads of strength, to stand up to all of these discenting opinions without losing your cool, or your sense of humor). I know I am going to think long and hard about some of them, though, like you, I am unlikely to change my mind. My hat is off to you!

    ---------------------------
    This too, shall pass.
    If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
    Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • PT, Khataan, dogchushu -

      That the wonders of research and exploration are sometimes corrupted by the self-interests of a few is not the fault of the researchers, seekers and explorers.

      PT and those of your camp - If you really feel that what you have expressed is valid, may I suggest that you have a look at the definition of "laissez faire" and revisit your personal political, ethical, and moral stand.

      Without people on the cutting edge of research, progress will be greatly impeded.

      Now if we can just get the ethical and moral collective conscience up to speed, this little blue ball (and it is true that you cannot see the lines in the sand from space) will be a better place.

      Hopefully on higher ground... I bid you Peace.

      Smiles and smiles to go...
      Smiles and smiles to go...

      Comment


      • I'm proud of our space program.
        I'm sad for the families, friends, and co-workers.
        I was stunned to learn of this terrible event; I must admit a high level of complacency about the space program, I assume the missions will go well and the learning will continue. It's been some time since our last damaging blow, and this one caught me totally by surprise.
        I was out of sorts to the point that after learning of it on the car radio, I stumbled through grocery shopping, drove home, got out of the car and walked straight to the barn to hug the horses. Let the steaks and wine rot= I need some comfort here.

        pt, I'm sorry you don't enjoy our support the space program. You are missing out on some great adventures, but that's your option, isn't it?

        "Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
        Bugs Bunny

        Comment


        • That the wonders of research and exploration are sometimes corrupted by the self-interests of a few is not the fault of the researchers, seekers and explorers.

          That's the justification those who split the atom used to live with the fact that they were responsible for the creation of the nuclear bomb. If it were not for the self-interests of the few, the research, quest and exploration would not happen; it's what supports the r/q/e. For a researcher, seeker, explorer to deny any part in the results of his/her activities argues irresponsibility and lack of ethics in the extreme. It's just an expanded version of the classic child's plea: "I didn't break the window; I threw the ball and the ball broke the window."

          If you really feel that what you have expressed is valid, may I suggest that you have a look at the definition of "laissez faire" and revisit your personal political, ethical, and moral stand.

          In light of your other comment, this is too funny. May I suggest that you take your own advice.

          LOUISE - I really meant to stay out of it anymore, and apologize if I've lost my sense of humor a bit on this one, but 1st-Forward's post is a perfect illustration of one part of what I've been talking about.

          Now I'm really signing off, so fire at will.

          Comment


          • Just had to support NASA as I have worked for it for 11 years. What about weather satellites? Do those who say there is no benefit from space not want to know that snow is coming, or a hurricane? The accuracy still leaves something to be desired, but each generation of weather satellites gets better, and the forecasts improve. I just had to mention this as no one else had.

            Comment


            • There is an ancient legend that our genes are imprinted with a genetic memory of our original home. The legend says we are all from Mars and therefore Martians. They believe our ancesters caaame here after their planet could no longer sustain them. The ground chalk pictures in South America are maps showing them where the water was located and each water source had it's own picture.

              All of our gene pool go back to about 4000 individuals so perhaps those were our ancesters who came here and we like the honing pigeons are just trying to get home.

              Motivation is a prime instinct to invent. Just think what would we do without velcro and who would have known we needed velcro if it was not for the space program.

              Is our mother Gaiia just the earth or is it all the elements of our solar system. Did we inherit this need to explore because we are trying to get home? Is not the sun and the moon part of the Gaiia along with all the stars in the heavens? Was it not God who separated the sky from the ground and could it be we just want to return to him?

              Battled Scarred Veteran
              http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

              Comment


              • Snowbird,

                It always cracks me up to see just how far out you can get with your suppositions. We couldn't be further apart in our beliefs.

                It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                Comment


                • Velvet, does this mean you don't believe it was "God who separated the sky from the ground and could it be we just want to return to him?"

                  Although I think that would be "Him" rather than "him".

                  Comment


                  • I don't believe we came from Mars. I believe I live their NOW (read my personal information)--because I like to act like someone from outer space, but I don't believe I have any distant relatives that once lived there.

                    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1st-forward:
                      PT, Khataan, dogchushu -

                      That the wonders of research and exploration are sometimes corrupted by the self-interests of a few is not the fault of the researchers, seekers and explorers.

                      PT and those of your camp - If you really feel that what you have expressed is valid, may I suggest that you have a look at the definition of "laissez faire" and revisit your personal political, ethical, and moral stand.

                      Without people on the cutting edge of research, progress will be greatly impeded.

                      Now if we can just get the ethical and moral collective conscience up to speed, this little blue ball (and it is true that you cannot see the lines in the sand from space) will be a better place.

                      Hopefully on higher ground... I bid you Peace.

                      Smiles and smiles to go...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Not sure why you included me in that address 1st-forward. I don't recall saying anything about researchers acting out of self interest.

                      Comment


                      • I was wondering the same thing.

                        Once again, I am typing and deleting, not posting....

                        Quantum Physics meet Dressage...Superposition Position

                        Comment


                        • First, thanks everyone, I am really enjoying this discussion and hearing the different prespectives.

                          In my opinion, money and research are inextricably linked - always have been and always will be. And this money (or other form of material or geopolitical advantage) is not limited, as has been described in some of the posts, to to a few greedy individuals/corporations.

                          Here is my reasoning:

                          Granted, while the scientists might have solely altruistic motives for their research, it takes money to support the research that provides them with the opportunity to pursue their dreams. And this amounts to a signficant amount of cold-hard-cash for "high tech" research.

                          Anyone whose livelihood is dependent on research grants is well-familar with the "no money, no research" (or food to eat) reality of the pursuit scientific altruism.

                          In this country, the fact that we have so much money available for research (i.e. to pursue knowledge for the sake of knowledge) is because of our economic strength. Our economic strength comes in large part from discoveries made in research...which in turn can fund more research...which in turn contributes to economic strength...so and so forth.

                          (Anyone out there under the impression that Haiti - an extremely poor nation - is spending as much per capita on research as the U.S.?)

                          Yes, some of these institutions of economic strength, i.e. corporations, will use and abuse. Other may act in a socially and environmentally responsible manner. The majority are somewhere in between - abusive in the opinion of some, examples of capitalistic success in the eyes of others, with varying degrees of infractions of social/environmental responsibility. An uniformed, apathetic, or unconcerned public may choose to look the other way.

                          This inextricable association between research and money is no different today than in the days of the explorers of the New World. Back then, only the wealthy nations had that money to fund the explorers. And didn't Columbus (despite his altruistic motives) have to justify his funding from Isabel and Ferdinand by saying he was off to find a new route to the lucrative spice trade?

                          (Goodness, change a few words here and there and this argument sounds exactly like something my colleagues and I have said to justify a current grant application to the NIH! )

                          Bottomline, IMHO, altruistic scientific discovery and money/money to be made (or some other form of material or geopolitical advantage) always have been and always will be linked.

                          Do I think this is bad thing? Absolutely not. Actually, it seems pretty realistic / pragmatic to me.

                          To limit the abuse of scientific discovery, however, among other things, requires an involved, informed, and non-apathetic public.

                          Judging from the number of posters on this topic, and the strength of their convictions, it sounds as if we already are on our way!

                          Comment


                          • Well pt we come from different backgrounds and see things in a different light.

                            As far as Native Americans and their views go............I'm not one but marched with them in the 60s against the BLM and the hypocrisy of the second Wounded Knee incident.
                            Did you know one of the experiments aboard was from a high school on the Sioux res?
                            No, I think Native American warriors would want to ride the thing and see what is out there based on those I have known. After all, somewhere way back when their ancestors left wherever they were and walked here. They did not fear whatever lay in their path.

                            So perhaps we should go back to walking?

                            At any rate I would ride that thing tomorrow. Anyone else care to go along?

                            The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.
                            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                            Comment


                            • What's the great line from the former NASA director? To paraphrase, we haven't spent a dime in space, we've spent it all here on Earth.

                              Which is true. And that money went and continues to go a lot of places: It pays salaries, which in turn pay for grocery bills, dry cleaning, taxes and, yes, riding lessons; it helps build neighborhoods through housing and schools for the people working in the space program; it spurs inventors and researchers and developers to build on what was first envisioned for space; it puts money in the pockets of truckers, delivery people, restaurant workers, schoolteachers and anyone else who participates even tangentially in the space program.

                              Is there "waste" in the space program? No doubt that depends on what your individual definition of "waste" is. I don't see it in NASA; tobacco subsidies, however, are a whole nother issue.

                              Oh, and Elghund2 and findeight: I'm right there with you on the next shuttle flight.


                              ** Dear Cupid: All I really want for Valentine's Day is flying LEAD CHANGES!! **
                              Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                              Comment


                              • I didn't say that is what I believe. What I believe is that everything is a circle and not a rectangle. A circle has no sides and therefore you can view it in a lot of ways just like an opinion. I dislike dogmatic generalizations that imply there is only one moral and ethical view of anything. What matters is that there is really nothing that is right or wrong it only appears that way from your perspective and from another perspective it looks completely different.

                                I think the Gaiia which is a native american concept is a beautiful one and equally plausible to many others that have been proposed since the beginning of time. We should not judge others unless we want to be judged. There are people archeologists who are delighted to sift on 100 degree heat sifting the sand of the desert for a handfull of fossils with a tea strainer.

                                So if there are those who dream of space and reaching out past time good for them. It is not bad it is not wasteful, is it always productive and sensible I don't know but I do know we all have the right to pursue whatever dreams we choose.

                                If there is a horse accident, there are thousands who would say that is wasteful and it's insaane to care that much about sitting on a horse that you would risk your life. It's our choice isn't it? So why find fault with people who choose to ride a rocket into the sky and call it wasteful when there are starving children.

                                Well, so are horses wasteful. Think how many starving children you could adopt every month with what it costs to support your horse habit.

                                Battled Scarred Veteran
                                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pt:
                                  That's the justification those who split the atom used to live with the fact that they were responsible for the creation of the nuclear bomb. If it were not for the self-interests of the few, the research, quest and exploration would not happen; it's what supports the r/q/e. For a researcher, seeker, explorer to deny any part in the results of his/her activities argues irresponsibility and lack of ethics in the extreme. It's just an expanded version of the classic child's plea: "I didn't break the window; I threw the ball and the ball broke the window."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  IMO, that's just not a really good analogy, but that's just a personal opinion. But here you are, you are a consumer of these goods. You have stepped up to the plate and signed on with the rest of the Consumption Community members. Then as a consumer, you have to take the bad with the good. Good: Printing Press. Bad: tripe that people can print. Good: Clean burning, inexpensive non fossil fuel power. Bad: China Syndrome wasn't just a movie. And so on...

                                  As for not "needing" such things that technological advances bring, I don't know if I can buy into that. I think when you use them on a daily basis you become complicit, and you lose some credibility indicating otherwise. I have a pretty hard time slamming soccer moms who drive SUVs. I drive one. I may have a more legitimate purpose than soccer moms (trailer), but I doubt the environment picks up on the distinction, so I prefer to not insult Mother Earth by pretending otherwise.

                                  On a more humorous note, when people talk about us destroying the planet, I love to recall George Carlin's take on Earth Day...

                                  "The EARTH can do just fine with plastic. The earth has no problem with plastic. The earth can orbit the sun and exist in complete harmony coated with plastic. The same cannot be said about humans. HUMANS are the ones that can't live on an earth covered in plastic."

                                  Quite true when you put it in those terms!

                                  "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein
                                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                  Comment


                                  • Greeks and Mesopotamians and Minoans and Eric the Red all sailed in search of whatever. No doubt African civilizations marched off into adjoining lands in search of what lay there and possibly took to the sea. Who knows what Egyptian or Mesoamerican explorers did.

                                    As a species we humans search out and explore. Perhaps we end up bettering ourselves in the process but that is not the point. The point is we push that envelope.

                                    Interesting that all who have been in space acknowledge how small we are in a big universe..........and the fact we are probably not alone.

                                    As I said, I'll ride the next one without a moments hesitation....to see the Earth from orbit...............?????????????
                                    Truly to slip the surly bonds of Earth and dance on laughters siver wings....
                                    and do things you would never do....
                                    And touch the face of God.

                                    Sorry if you disagree but this is our future.

                                    Out there.

                                    The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                    Comment


                                    • Amen, findeight!

                                      The world is not flat. Some will never get over it!

                                      Onward, upward, forward!

                                      "Engage."

                                      Comment


                                      • Applause to you Findeight! You hit the nail on the head perfectly!

                                        _______________________________
                                        *"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable." - Oscar Wilde
                                        ______________________________

                                        *Formerly known as Seabiscuit*

                                        Comment


                                        • If my life's path had led me towards a spot at NASA, I would have not hesitated to sign up.

                                          Having sailed the Atlantic in a 30+ foot sailboat, I know how insignificant one can feel. The ocean could swallow me up in a second and no-one would find us. But, I would do it again.

                                          I can't imagine a planet full of people - all unwilling to leave the safety of their familiar territory. Imagine no Leif Ericson, no Columbus, no Lewis & Clark, no Henry Hudson, no Vikings, no James Cook, no Francis Drake, no Marco Polo, no Cortes, ... the list is endless.
                                          I would have been born in, and never left, France

                                          Comment

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