• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Space Shuttle Disaster

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • To answer the question about what is so special about the space program that it creates these leaps in R&D, I, a total non-science person, will give an answer.Because the sciene of space requires not only hard knowledge, but also dreams and imagination. I was watching some silly old sci-fi movie on MST3K the other day, that was made right before the space program really became a reality, and at one point, they have to plan some sort of space maneuver and the crew gets out pencils and paper and starts doing the calculations by hand.

    Now, that's just a movie, yes, but to me it points out that most people couldn't even conieve of computers that could do calculations, let alone fly a shuttle. Space R&D requires a dreamer who can gaze in to the sky and think about an environment that for the most part is totally hypothetical, then imagine how one could live and function there. With all due respect to the many amazing, non-NASA scientific minds out there, most science works and projects don't necessarily encourage or reward the dreamers personality--most corporations certainly don't--so I for one I am glad there are places for such genius dreamers to dream.

    Bu then again, I guess I also think that there is a certain benefit of spaceflight you just have to feel, deep in your heart, like that feeling you get when listening to a magnificent piece of music, or looking at a painting like Water Lillies. All those intangible thaiings that give me the feeling of we humnas rising above the ourselves and being a part of something cosmicly great.

    Comment


    • TThe reason advances are made in space flight, theoretical physics, astronomy and other "esoteric" endeavors is that the space environment is SO extreme we have to make extensive leaps in our understanding in order to just be able to function there. Those then translate to new ways of thought for products here on earth.

      Think of medical CT, MRI, and PET scans. Discoveries in quantum physics (atomic clocks mean the more accurately you can time something, the more accurately you can measure its location), telecommunications and image analysis (how was NASA, able to talk to astronauts and space probes, along with understanding what images from interplanetary probes mean), combined to create a powerful medical diagnostic tools. Companies on Earth do not necessarily have the extensive expertise to combine all of these disciplines into a coherent product.

      Let’s take another example, hydrogen fuel cells. In space we need fuel sources to power equipment. Solar energy conversion is not enough; we needed high power generators. We cannot use standard power generating processes due to toxic byproducts from combustion. NASA developed hydrogen fuel cells to power spacecraft. The byproducts are oxygen (used in replenishing the spacecraft atmosphere) and water (used for drinking by the astronauts). This is the same technology that may, someday provide efficient transportation in Earth. NO car manufacturer ever considered this technology. The spaceflight environment made engineers think in ways never considered before.

      Research done in R&D that occurs on earth is generally done in incremental steps. It is human nature, we get sedentary when things are comfortable (the old adage of don't fix something if it ain't broke). So there is little incentive to press for quantum leaps. Very little in the way of quantum leaps in understanding comes from commercial R&D. As a matter of fact, the government funds much of the cutting edge medical and technological research because commercial companies will not fund the basic research needed to make the quantum leaps in thought. Federal law dictates that the government cannot own the rights to its discoveries so that we, the public, can choose to take what they discover and commercialize it. Numerous companies take advantage of this to bring products to market that we take for granted.


      Reed

      Comment


      • Phew! I was hoping Reed would come out here and straighten out Sister!

        It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

        Comment


        • I guess that it just seems the research could be funded research into such things as hydrogen fuel cells that might improve the quality of life on earth without going into this space program - punching holes in the atmosphere for one thing, creating planetary weapons for another.

          I'm just not convinced that the space program is the best possible use of all the money that has gone into it.

          Comment


          • Besides the complexity of space travel, as Rayers' points out, the reason that the stuff gets developed in the space program is because there is a problem to solve. In the case of medical monitoring, in the hospitals there was not enough of a problem to be solved in order to justify the R&D expense. The space program presented the problem in a different and much more demanding manner.

            Once the technology is developed for the space program, then the company that developed it, can commercialize it. It provides a level of R&D that would not be undertaken otherwise.

            Those that are quick to question the spending on the space program ought to look at where the money comes for university and hospital research. It comes from the government just like the space program funding.

            "I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those that are quick to question the spending on the space program ought to look at where the money comes for university and hospital research. It comes from the government just like the space program funding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I don't care that the money comes from the gov't. I just haven't been convinced that the space program the wisest use of funds.

              But that's just my opinion - others can and do differ.

              Comment


              • The problem, pt, is without the space program, some of these things would never have been conceived! It isn't as simple as we can put our money into R&D here and solve the world's ills.

                Space demands the unimaginable become reality, in a way that everyday life of earth doesn't.

                It fuels unlimited imaginations. Then, engineers bring those imaginings back to earth. Humans have always been dreamers, and space is, was, and always will be the ultimate dream.

                I am awed by both the dreamers and the doers of the space program - those who imagine the umimaginable, those who solve the problems beyond conception, and especially those who turn those dreams into practical reality.

                I suspect I wouldn't be here today, had it not been for the medical applications of the space program, and for that I am especially thankful.

                It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                Comment


                • Look at it this way, pharmaceutical companies are for-profit businesses. Any pharmaceutical company that plans to stay in business is NEVER going to spend any R&D money, let alone really big R&D money (think billons invested in major cancer drugs), on any drug that is not presently needed for a major illness AND one for which there is a paying consumer. IOW, they just don't undertake long term, expensive R&D for something that *might* *someday* benefit humanity. Occasionally, while trying to resolve one problem, they find a drug that has multiple uses, and in those cases, many of our innovator drug companies have been known to offer the multi-use drugs a low or no cost to solve problems to developing nations....but if the MAJOR illness with the PAYING customers had not been there as the incentive, there would never have been investigation in that area in the first place.

                  The space program is like a really major illness held by a paying customer. It generates large-scale, expensive research and development focused on solving specific problems that *also* tend to have commercial applications. As it turns out, much of their investigation benefits us all in more ways than we will ever know. Without the incentive created by the customer space program, there's no way that we would have all the advances we have today.

                  Comment


                  • As far as scientific discovery, I agree, the space program does need to be subject to a cost benefit analysis.

                    Several posts above describe scientific discoveries with current broad spectrum "earthly" appliciations that were expedited by their association with the space program.

                    As such, it was of interest to me that one of the "experts" interviewed on the news yesterday (a professor from the Univ. of Maryland, if I recall), categorically refuted the arguments sited above. In fact, he claimed that little scientific advancement with wide applications on earth actually have resulted from or been expedited by the continuation of the space program.

                    This is way outside my area of expertise, and I don't have the time to track down all the facts on my own. As such, I do have to depend on the arguments provided on both sides of this issue by people well familar with all of the facts on the topic.

                    While I have no preconceived idea where the sum total of the facts will lead, I believe it is a good idea for these kind of discussions to be had.

                    Regardless of the results of this type of analysis, does anyone out there truly believe that Tang is such an advancement to humankind?

                    Comment


                    • Let's just leave it that I am not a fan of the space program. I've heard all the arguments and am not convinced, possibly because IMO the space program is based on the age-old motivations of conquest and greed, not any altruistic concern for advances in medicine and improvements in human life. And other reasons, but why bother.

                      Nope. Space program is one of those things that make me wish I could designate the programs my tax $$$ will support.

                      But having stated my opinion and having no desire to convince anyone, I'll excuse myself from this discussion.

                      Comment


                      • Here is an even more simple analogy as to why we should go to outer space.

                        When you are with your horses, when do you think you learn the most about being a horseman? Just riding in an arena, day after day, after day, after day,..., or when you go to a horse show, or on a long trial ride to a new place? Do you learn more jumping the same course or doing the same dressage test day in and day out, or when you do different things with different judges watching? Do you learn more about veterinary care of your horses taking care of perfectly healthy animals or having to deal with the decisions and understanding a colicking pony, a pulled suspensory, navicular, bad hocks?

                        You learn more when faced with what may be perceived as insurmountable challenges. It makes you a more understanding and knowledgeable person. You are forced to reach beyond what you know and be someone better.

                        That is why we need to go to space. That is why the expense is worth it (by the way NASA's budget is less than 1/10 of %1 of the annual defense budget and less than the annual budget for medical research at NIH). If complacency is your thing, then why own horses, why travel the world, why be anything?

                        Reed

                        Comment


                        • pt,

                          Before you leave, can I ask how old you are? I mean, some of the statements make me think you missed out entirely on the space race--and others make me think you caught a part of it.

                          It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                          "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                          Comment


                          • Space to me is MAGIC!

                            Don't we all need a little magic in our lives??

                            I would be another expert from another University would point out how much more that 1/10th of 1% (or less than the annual budget of the NIH) has done for all of us THAN the NIH!!

                            To me, however, it remains magic. It is dreams realized. It is the prospect of a future for generations to come.

                            That isn't so true here on the ground.

                            It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                            co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                            Comment


                            • Reed can straighten me out any time he wants!

                              The mention of atomic clock reminds me that I have one of those spanky contraptions. Not only does the time sync to Ft. Collins, it's numbers are big enough for me to read without my specs.

                              And Velvet, just because you were around for the Wright Brother's initial flight doesn't mean that we all have been around so terribly long!

                              Comment


                              • good points Reed. I feel I need to chime in here too. the gubment funds all kinds of things just for the simple fact that something important MIGHT come of it. Much of the work done in mathematics seems really pointless until some physicist comes along and figures out how to use it to solve an esoteric physics problem and then an engineer builds a marketable product out of it and voila, the cell phone! this happens all the time. it is impossible to know a priori what good will come of all this pointless research. the buzzword of the moment in my research is "quantum computing." we say it to get funding, but it has very little to do with my research at the moment, but in the future, who knows?

                                **horsie art**

                                Comment


                                • (Sister, what am I going to do with you at Rolex? Will I have to dunk you at the water jump between riders??? )

                                  I still feel the magic of space. I had it instilled in me when I was a small child and watched Neil Armstrong take his first steps on the moon. His first statement summed up what everyone on Earth was feeling, "One small step for man. One giant leap for mankind."

                                  It hasn't been for ego stroking. It's part of what makes us human. We have more curiosity in one finger than ten cats could hope to have in each of their nine lives. We explore things because we feel compelled to explore them.

                                  As for the benefits, exploration has ALWAYS benefited the world. If you let someone like Chris Columbus go out and look around, you get a new world. Along with this new world you get untold riches--along with benefits you never could have dreamed of if you had been standing on the dock wishing him "bon voyage."

                                  Any time we reach for something new, we need to develop new technologies to get us there. Once we're there, we usually find the next step to take, which again pushes technology and our understanding of physics (to help us reach that goal).

                                  One thing to remember is that the first "portable" computer was designed for the first mission to the moon. Before that, they were too big.

                                  There are just so many benefits we receive from pushing ourselves into new frontiers, I can't imagine anyone not supporting the space program. Does this mean I don't think we should push the "inner" frontiers? Not at all! I think all should be explored, but I do think there is a need to explore space NOW. No waiting. It's one of our best opportunities to find a way to help protect our world (by studying it from a distance) and to protect our species.

                                  I also know that it gives us all a perspective that is needed more today than it was yesterday. Looking at the Earth as you leave its protection you see just exactly how thin and fragile the atmosphere really is. You can see the damage we are doing by limiting ourselves to current fuel technologies as well as what over development/management has done. And you see that there are no lines marking boarders--and that we ALL share this one place and that it's the only place we have at the moment that we can call home.

                                  It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

                                  [This message was edited by Velvet on Feb. 03, 2003 at 02:52 PM.]
                                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                  Comment


                                  • [QUOTE]If complacency is your thing, then why own horses, why travel the world, why be anything? /QUOTE]

                                    That's quite an assumption. Just because I'm not in wide-eyed awe of the space program, I'm complacent about everything in life? Sheesh!

                                    Velvet, I've been around for the space program but I also remember the world before it. What's the point of your question?

                                    Weatherford, if space is magic to you and others, fine. My magic is elsewhere. And space or no space, I don't believe there will be a future for coming generations if we don't deal with some serious problems right here on earth.

                                    I keep waiting for Michael Rennie to show up and explain that we as a species are not welcome in space.

                                    What's the big deal, guys? You are thrilled by the space program, I'm not. Can't we just agree to disagree?

                                    Comment


                                    • No, no, no. Klatu didn't say we weren't welcome in space--he said that if we didn't clean up our act we wouldn't be allowed to go into space and mess up the playground his and other species were sharing.

                                      (I wasn't making a point with my question. I was asking a question. I'm always interested in finding how much propaganda plays a part in our views.)

                                      It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                                      "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                      Comment


                                      • Ah, we can certainly agree to disagree, pt!

                                        I just think your words made some of us who HAVEN'T taken time to consider the space program in a long time, if ever, 'come out of the closet fighting' so to speak!

                                        Nothing wrong with that - look at it as us expressing ourselves, not as us knocking YOUR opinion, personally!!

                                        It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                                        co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                                        Comment


                                        • By the way, speaking of the first computer, Tom Watson Senior (founder of IBM) always said there was demand for about 4 computers in the world.

                                          Obviously, his son (who made IBM what it became) disagreed...

                                          Without the space program, maybe that wouldn't have happened!

                                          It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                                          co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X