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Space Shuttle Disaster

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  • Nope, I'm saying that once we develop the technology, bemoaning the consequences gets us exactly nada. Far better we should develop ways to deal with it, and the unintended consequences of it. Exactly like the Geneva convention, so in that sense I suppose we do support the same point.

    But as I said a few pages (days) earlier, that I believe we need great problems to solve if we are to develop great solutions. We solve/create/challenge so much more when we have to get from A to Z, especially if we can't see past G. A to D isn't that inspiring, and usually (not always!) results in uninspired solutions.

    Not that I don't think there are great problems to be solved on earth, I just think to the bottom of my pragmatic heart that if we abandon the space program, we will abandon the major creative effort to solve some of those great problems. OK, maybe Lockheed-Martin-McDonnel-Douglas-Boing will be working on solving some of them, but all things considered, I think they will be working away at them regardless of the status of NASA. I'd just as soon they weren't the only ones working on them.

    And do I wish it was a perfect world, where we invested our time and resources in trying to solve the truly awful circumstances of a great part of the earth's population? Hell yes. But I just don't think NASA stands in the way of that issue. More like human nature.

    "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein
    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

    Comment


    • I just think to the bottom of my pragmatic heart that if we abandon the space program, we will abandon the major creative effort to solve some of those great problems.

      DMK, I think you've hit the heart of the disagreement on this thread.

      You appear to believe that the space program includes an effort to solve some of earth's great problems.

      If you are referring to the diminishment of major mineral resources and of having adequate living room for an overpopulated planet, you may have a point. Because I see the space program as powered by greed (mining Mars, for starters) and the human tendency to look for a new place to move its problems to, instead of dealing with them (the Americas in the 17th-19th century; possible locations for growing more food or relocating excess population in the space age.) But IMO, that's not solving problems - it's just expanding their scope.

      There are also the personal motivations of glory, excitement, and a government job which should not be discounted.

      As for other problems - you seem to believe the space program is focused on solving them. I, for one, do not. Any benefits that may have spun off the space program are incidental to its two major motivations: greed and lebensraum, (not to mention glory, excitement, gov't job, etc.) and could have been discovered without the negative effects of the space program, probably at less cost.

      Having reached the heart of the opposing POV's, it's seems clear that there isn't any common ground between them.

      Do I expect questioning the space program to end it? No. And maybe it shouldn't be completely ended. But it's my money and my environment, too, and there's no reason not to point out some of the questionable aspects. Who knows? By some miracle, greed and self-aggrandizement may not rule entirely and there could be some modification in focus. Stranger things have happened.

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What about the degenerating quality of art, literature, music in the past 40 years? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        So what makes you think that art, liertature or music have been degenerating for the past 40 years? If you talk to artists in many disciplines, I think they will tell you that art has progressed (Personally, I hate the disneyfication of the arts). Also, its not like it is a zero sum game when it comes to research versus the arts. Its not like funding the arts produces more great art.

        "I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pt:
          Having reached the heart of the opposing POV's, it's seems clear that there isn't any common ground between them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Probably not, but you learn things while debating them, as long as you keep an open mind.

          But I must clarify that I do not think that the space program is dedicated to solving the world's problems in the way that you suggested. I do think they stumble across some pretty good solutions along the way though. But that's generally how scientific progress works.

          "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein
          Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

          Comment


          • So what makes you think that art, liertature or music have been degenerating for the past 40 years?

            Viewing, reading, listening.

            If you talk to artists in many disciplines, I think they will tell you that art has progressed

            And many do not. Not all motion is progress, either.

            Its not like funding the arts produces more great art

            No, there are no guarantees. Not funding, however, certainly makes it more difficult.

            Probably not, but you learn things while debating them, as long as you keep an open mind.

            Oh, absolutely. That's been the pleasure of this thread, hasn't it?

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Probably not, but you learn things while debating them, as long as you keep an open mind.

              Oh, absolutely. That's been the pleasure of this thread, hasn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Amen!

              "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein
              Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

              Comment


              • unh, unh, uhn!

                Since when did ****ANYBODY**** ever post ****ANYTHING**** that even remotely suggested that;

                "questioning the validity of the space programs ... equals a desire to eliminate all scientific research."

                Show me one instance? And why is it that you (pt) get to ask ALL the questions without offering any shread of REAL evidence to support your position?
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My questions are, Is the space program the most cost-effective method of expanding scientific knowledge? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Many, many ... many many instances of what space research has contributed to society have been cited. I asked several days ago for you to cite ONE example in ALL of history of ANYTHING else that comes close to the space program in both direct and spin off contributions to mankind. ****ONE****!

                But, IMHO, Absa-by-god-lutely!!! In fact (without even checking) I'm willing to bet that if you sum up all the money spent for ALL other scientific resarch globaly, since space research started, the money spent (every penny here on earth, btw) on space reasearch wouldn't constitute a significant fraction of that "other research" you keep touting.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What are the priorities since "imagination" appears to be defined by some as limited to space? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Where was that definition, please?

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Like nuclear warheads? Spy satellites? More and better mind control? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                That's what I'm trying to advert, having my mind controlled by half truths, exageration and inuendo.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> DMK
                Central heating and air, silly little medical advances like vaccinations and antibiotics, but that doesn't mean its a good idea to live without them again.

                pt

                Not developed through the space program but through concentrating on problems to solve here. Far more beneficial to mankind than Playstation. You're supporting my point <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                HOW, is DMK supporting your point? A couple days ago you guys were all for going back to lugging water an using wash bords. When it was pointed out how assinine that idea was you finally accepted that just maybe some modern advances might be ok. And WHERE/WHY did playstation enter this debate. Nobody said that every use of micro-circutry and processors was perfect.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You appear to believe that the space prgram includes an effort to solve some of earths great problems<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Anyone would be hard pressed to cite examples where EVERY great effort that bennifited man started out that way. Is that really the litmus test you want to apply to all research, it's not valid unless it is alturisticly pure?

                But ****IN FACT**** many of the experiments run on the Space Shuttle are just that, "efforts to solve earths problems". Many, many experiments have/are done to see what can be done in micro gravity that can't be done on earth. And how they can be applied to everyday bennifits for mankind. Fire prevention, medicine, agriculture just to name a few.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Any benefits that may have spun off the space program are incidental to its two major motivations: Any benefits that may have spun off the space program are incidental to its two major motivations: greed and lebensraum, (not to mention glory, excitement, gov't job, etc.) and could have been discovered without the negative effects of the space program, probably at less cost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                What NASA document lists "greed and lebensraum, (not to mention glory, excitement, gov't job, etc.)" as "major motivations for space exploration? Or do we have to accept your opinion as fact on face value? And just how "could (they) have been discovered without the negative effects of the space program, probably at less cost.", please give one example? When you say "less cost" how much less of what amount are you talking about and how much needs to be accomplished? Unless you can answer my early question, to name any other endeavor that has bennifited mankind (even fractionally) as much I think we can burry that part of your argument now.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Having reached the heart of the opposing POV's, it's seems clear that there isn't any common ground between them.

                and

                Probably not, but you learn things while debating them, as long as you keep an open mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                There is pleanty of common ground between the opposing Point's of Veiw. But it's not a debate if you continually use blatant propoganda technique, don't even try to sell your "POV" as comming from an open mind.

                I plan to live forever ...
                ... so far so good.

                [This message was edited by Eomer on Feb. 10, 2003 at 09:29 PM.]
                \"The fool on the hill\"

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pt:
                  What about the degenerating quality of art, literature, music in the past 40 years? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  ...in the past 40 years: Fred Astaire said Michael Jackson was the best dancer he'd ever seen

                  Comment


                  • The current issue of the Atlantic has an interesting piece on the 'paradox' of modern America: Antlantic Monthly -- The American Paradox

                    Comment


                    • Interesting article, JER - thanks.

                      re: dancers. I just saw a program last night featuring four of the best male ballet dancers you could possibly imagine. One from the Ukraine, one from Spain, one from Cuba and one from Wisconsin, no less! Actually gave me a slim degree of hope that the world wasn't going entirely hiphop and riffraff.

                      Comment


                      • Did you say dancing?

                        http://www.dancingbush.com/

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yournamehere:
                          ...in the past 40 years: Fred Astaire said Michael Jackson was the best dancer he'd ever seen

                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Get out!! Footnotes, we need footnotes! Where do you find this stuff??? (And do you ever do any actual work??? )
                          http://wildwoodfarmnc.com

                          http://cantersgutenberg.wordpress.co...g-quiet-goose/

                          Comment


                          • I'm un-sticking this topic, but we'll let it continue on for a little while longer, as long as it stays civil...

                            Comment


                            • Music in the past 40 years....

                              And I won't mention the great pop artists (since 1960) such as Joni Mitchell, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Brian Wilson (Beach Boys), the Rolling Stones.... all of whom's creative vision changed the music world...

                              But, talking of CLASSICAL musicians - John Cage, Phillip Glass (whose 3rd Symphony - that I heard on Saturday - is absolutely divine!), and John Adams - to name three whose mark has been in the past 40 years. You can also include, Benj Brittan and Samuel Barber - although both died in the 70's. And those are the ones whose music is enjoyed by non-musicians as well as musicians. The current crop of symphonic composers are creating a "gestalt" (as my composition teacher would say) of styles that are absolutely gorgeous. (I will add, the essentially non-academic ones, IMHO)

                              I do not know much about visual art, but don't say there hasn't been any great music in the past 40 years. There is probably a Jophann(a) BACH out there, too, waiting to be dead 50 years so a 20 year old Felix Mendelssohn can discover him (her!)

                              The stars have ALWAYS inspired music and the arts - no less now than ever!

                              It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                              co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                              Comment


                              • Totally agree with you Weatherford!

                                This is such an exciting era for classical music -- composers as diverse as Arvo Part, Elliot Carter, John Tavener, Gavin Bryars, Mark O'Connor, Xenakis and groups -- Fluxus, Kronos, Arditti, any of Paul Hillier's or Yo Yo Ma's ensembles -- willing to take on music outside of the classical standard repertoire.

                                And technology helps spread the music around, not just for the listener, but also for the composer, who now has more tools to work with than ever before.

                                Comment


                                • You just came up with more and better names than I could off the top of my head (and away from my CD's!)!!!

                                  It really is a wonderful time to be hearing, performing, AND writing classical music!!!

                                  It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                                  co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                                  Comment


                                  • It's a matter of personal taste. I've heard several of the composers you mentioned. Didn't like their work at all. Beatles, Stones and Beach Boys?? You're kidding, right???? It's an example of the deterioration of music, IMO not necessarily IYO, that such stuff would be considered a positive contribution.

                                    Yo Yo Ma - while a great interpreter no doubt - is he also a composer? Haven't heard any original works of his & would like to.

                                    DMK - there was a point you made that I'll dispute - it had to do with great discoveries being made by accident (remember Sydney J. Harris's "Things Learned on the Way to Looking Up Something Else"?) Some things may have been found serendipitously, but the majority of discoveries and inventions have, I'll wager, been made through specific, focused work. One excellent example is one you mentioned: vaccines. Certainly one of the greatest boons to humankind, and the result of very directed, purposeful research beginning back with Lister and cowpox. Radiation - directed. Penicillin - directed. Telephone - directed. Radio - directed.

                                    My belief is simply that Earth is where we are and where we were put. Until we can manage to live here without destroying our home, and until we can learn to get along without destroying other species and each other, what possible business do we have taking our mess out into space? It's not a question of IF we can, but SHOULD we. It's an ethical issue. That's the core of the disagreement and unlikely to be resolved.

                                    Comment


                                    • pt - send me your name and addy and I will put together a cd of some wonderful classical music written in the past 40 years...

                                      It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
                                      co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                                      Comment


                                      • Space exploration is a mater of fact.&lt;-period And thank goodness, no other single endeavor man has ever attempted has bennifited MANKIND so much for so little, that is a fact.

                                        Many questions are being asked now, the Columbia catastrophy forces us to examine not only how we will continue, and continue we most certainly will, but what our purpose will be. But there is no (valid) question (supported by fact, not mear musings) that in our quest for space we have done so much to discover and better ourselves. The following quotes from NOTED EXPERTS on the subject of space and society underscore these FACTS<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thirty eight years ago, humans placed an object in space, heralding the Space Age and opening a new frontier. This single epochal event ignited the imagination of people throughout the world and led to a cornucopia of great discoveries and achievements in the decades that followed. Humans soared into space, explored the Moon, probed the depths of the universe, and employed technologies developed for space achievements to provide greater security, better health, higher education, and higher quality of life on Earth.
                                        American Astronautical Society

                                        When NASA needed to power spacecraft with unlimited energy, it took the lead in developing solar energy technology. To study Earth’s ozone layer from satellites, NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory came up with a low-temperature laser that is now uniquely capable of vaporizing coronary artery blockages without damaging tissue. A buoy-shaped life raft, a descendant of rafts developed for the Apollo program, has saved hundreds of lives on the high seas.

                                        The technological benefits of space exploration seem endless: computer readers for the blind, virtual reality devices, lightweight aerospace composite materials, aircraft lightning protection, x-ray imaging systems, vehicle-collision-avoidance systems, corrosion-resistant sealants, even cordless tools and vacuum cleaners.

                                        There is no way to count the number of lives saved each year through space-based weather monitoring. And as we learn more about the effects of space on the human body we may well learn ways to improve and preserve human life on Earth. In the weightless environment of space, for instance, bacteria and cancer cells grow in larger, looser shapes than on Earth, enabling scientists to study their structure and development more easily.
                                        Newcott/National Geographic

                                        Many common, everyday items grew out of technology developed in the space program. “Things we now take for granted, like the common home smoke detectors have grown out of technology derived from the space program. More recent technological developments include a miniature implantable heart assist device based on space shuttle fuel pumps and protective clothing that can be used for a variety of applications based on spacesuit technology,”
                                        News and Public Affairs
                                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        It's really not hard to find good documentation for the Thesis that Space Exploration bennifits ALL mankind. And to think that we've just scratched the surface. With so much potential good to come from space exploration it would be un-ethical to stop. There is no "out there/in here"; we ARE out there traveling in space, you and I, right now. We need to learn to do it better. Climbing to the heights is when we best see oursleves, "We traveled to the Moon thinking we were going to see the Moon only to find when we got there we went to see the Earth.


                                        I plan to live forever ...
                                        ... so far so good.

                                        [This message was edited by Eomer on Feb. 12, 2003 at 06:23 PM.]
                                        \"The fool on the hill\"

                                        Comment


                                        • ANd for those that think NASA is a waste of the taxpayers money, this might help put it in perspective.

                                          People that complain that we spend too much on NASA usually have no idea how much is spent and how it compares to federal spending on social programs. NASA's budget has been less than 1% of the federal budget since 1977. See below for this year's budget figures. Note that this is not the whole budget breakdown, just what jumps out at you as "social services". The total Federal budget for 2003 will be 2.18 TRILLION dollars (that's 2,180 Billion dollars).

                                          Some items in the 2003 budget:

                                          Social Security - 472 Billion

                                          Medicare - 231 Billion

                                          Medicaid - 159 Billion

                                          HUD - 30.9 Billion

                                          Health & Human services - 65.9 Billion

                                          Dept. of Education - 50.3 Billion

                                          Veterans Affairs - 26.4 Billion

                                          NASA - 15.1 Billion


                                          From

                                          http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2003/pdf/bud34.pdf

                                          Now, I'm not saying that social programs are a waste of money, but I just want to put things in perspective.

                                          Here's something someone else posted on USENET:


                                          "We are constantly bombarded with comments about how space exploration is a monumental waste of money and how we'd be so much better off spending the money on earth. Apparently, people who say this sort of thing haven't been
                                          doing much homework.

                                          Please note:

                                          1) Between 1957 and 1987, NASA and then related organizations cost the American taxpayer $100 billion. Jeez, that's a lot of money, right? Compared to the military budgets each year, this is the proverbial drop in the bucket.

                                          2) Each year, space related industries add between $500 billion and $600 billion to the Gross National Product. Gee, that's not much of a pay off for an initial investment of $100 billion. &lt;sarcasm mode off&gt;

                                          3) Where does that money go? Down a big rathole? Or maybe, just maybe, it's being put into high tech jobs, support personnel, re-tooling, development, research (including computer and technological research that can benefit the average American).

                                          4) It should be painfully obvious that simply throwing money at the ills of this nation doesn't work. And we can see that it has NEVER worked. Yes, some money should be set aside for this. But throughout history,people have prospered best during periods of enlightenment and exploration (with the exception of people whose lands were the subject of these explorations).

                                          5) Scientific investigation has often seemed to be fruitless at first but has, more often than not, led to great discoveries that eventually have made some people very rich. Example: quantum physics didn't seem to have many practical applications until someone realized that the tunneling effect (which doesn't work in classical physics) meant great advances in solid state electronics."

                                          Some info on space technology spin-offs:

                                          http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

                                          http://www.nasatechnology.com/default.asp

                                          Here are some numbers to ponder:

                                          U.S. Federal Budget FY2000 $1.4+ Trillion

                                          NASA Budget, FY2000 $13.6 Billion 0.97% of
                                          the Total Federal Budget

                                          U.S. Snack Food Sales, 1998 $18.17 Billion
                                          Obtained from the US Snack Food Association

                                          Quantum Physics meet Dressage...Superposition Position

                                          Comment

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