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Space Shuttle Disaster

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  • I'm not accusing you of anything, with the possible exception that you are very single minded and closed minded to anything ... em, anything outside of your opinion ... just about covers it. I just think your, lets use ego-centric view is very much like that of an eco-terroist. MY idea is right, to hell with logic or the common good. MY good is what IS good. That's how you come off to me.

    I'd like you to name me one other, in all of history, "peacful" endeavor that has fostered as much progress as the space program?

    I plan to live forever ...
    ... so far so good.

    [This message was edited by Eomer on Feb. 06, 2003 at 06:09 PM.]
    \"The fool on the hill\"

    Comment


    • Eomer, this has been a lovely discussion with many adults exchanging ideas in a calm, respectful way. I'm not going to play into your attempt to degenerate a fine thread into name calling.

      Louise - maybe it's time to close this one while it's still good.

      Comment




      • [This message was edited by Eomer on Feb. 06, 2003 at 06:10 PM.]
        \"The fool on the hill\"

        Comment


        • Don't close it!

          It is not fair to the rest of us that are enjoying the discussion.

          Remember, if you can't stand the heat, step AWAY from the fire!

          Quantum Physics meet Dressage...Superposition Position

          Comment


          • Come on guys, this has been one of the best discussions and calmest discussions I have seen on this BB in ages. Please don't let it disintegrate into you and me confrontations.

            Everybody has a right to have opinions that are different from yours or mine. And they have the right to hold fast to their opinion, in the face of opposition.

            Let's not make it personal, and lets definitely keep it going here. I have learned a ton of "stuff" and I want to keep on learning.

            Louise

            ---------------------------
            This too, shall pass.
            If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
            Desmond Tutu

            Comment


            • in the midst of our collectivegrief, and heartfelt felt emotions. i, surprisingly have had memories of verses learned many yearsago in school, obviously these are thoughts, emotions and ponderings which belong noto to our time, and age alone,Consider, for example, .."a mans' reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?.." and, also...Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee...',thn, no man is an island, unto himself "High flight , and the navy and air force hymns certainly express similar sentiments. i posted last year on the eventing forum a quote from Wilbur Wright "flight,is mans' mans'perception of perfect peace : :confused

              breeder of Mercury!

              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives :confused : : :

              [This message was edited by CAROL AMES on Feb. 06, 2003 at 07:48 PM.

              [This message was edited by CAROL AMES on Feb. 06, 2003 at 07:49 PM.]
              breeder of Mercury!

              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

              Comment


              • Hmmm, isn't it single minded and close minded to call someone single minded and close minded just because you disagree with that person?

                Just a thought...

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                I'm not accusing you of anything, with the possible exception that you are very single minded and closed minded to anything ... em, anything outside of your opinion ... just about covers it. I just think your, lets use ego-centric view is very much like that of an eco-terroist. MY idea is right, to hell with logic or the common good. MY good is what IS good. That's how you come off to me.

                I'd like you to name me one other, in all of history, "peacful" endeavor that has fostered as much progress as the space program?
                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  Hmmm, isn't it single minded and close minded to call someone single minded and close minded just because you disagree with that person?
                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  I suppose it might be, lex, IF it was "JUST BECAUSE I disagree". But that's not why I said what I did. One of the first posts in this thread I happened to read stated something to the affect that "this" was one of the best discussions the board has had. So I went back and read every post. Frankly, for the most part, it's been page after page of the two sides of an argument repeating themselves.

                  On the one side people have stated what good has come out of the space program. The other countering with the argument that all the good could have, should have been discovered for and by other less expensive means, and or, that the world would be better off without those discoveries, and or, reducing them to Tang or Teflon.

                  I think it's very closed minded and single minded to ignore the history of man kind. We have always benifited most when we push our limits, go where no man or woman has gone before, reaching for the hights and finding when we got there that we went there not to see the "heights", but to look back at ourselves from that vantage point and reflect upon what we are, where we are going and what we may yet become.

                  To minimize all the advances the quest for Space has brought mankind in communications, circuitry, medicine, composits, metalurgy, and on and on. Or to say that they could have been acomplished cheaper by other means is just not true, with out Space research many of them would not have been accomplished at all. And in the face of our global problems of a growing population being supported with finite means minimizing these accomplishments or relegating them to "we'd be better off without them is equally not true and, frankly, ill timed in view of this tradgedy.

                  I never ment to offend anybody only give them the opportunity to look at themselves and reflect on the posibility that other posibilities exist. I'm sorry if I was harsh but, to me, it didn't seem that other less harsh attempts were making any headway. Anyway, to put an end to the animosity let me close with a story about the Space shuttle that will tie closely to the purpose of this board.

                  The Space Shuttle is the most advanced and complicated machine man has yet to build, but it's design ties directly to a war horse of two thousand years ago. One of the things ancient Rome is famous for was it's roads. Maintaining the Roman Empire depended on swift transportation of it armies. How wide the Roman roads were was determined buy the width of two chariot horses in harness. The chariot, and the space between the wheels was determined by the average/common width of a horse. For all the ensuing centuries afterward all carts, wangons and coaches in England, an outpost of the Empire, were built to fit the ruts of those early chariots. When trains were being developed, in England, the people that built the first rail cars where the same people that had been building coaches. Consequently the gauge (width between the rails) of rail roads was determined by the jigs and fixtures allready in use by them. Many of those folks imigrated here to the United States and were influential in how our railroads where designed ... including the GAUGE. More than a century later a contractor in Utah, Morton Thykol, won the bid to manufacture the solid rocket boosters for the Space Shuttle. The design of the Shutle System the Liquid fuel tank, the boostes, everthing including the Shuttle was inter-dependent on each other. One of the challenges Thykol faced was getting their part of the Shuttle, the Boosters, to Florida. The most economical way considering their weight was by rail and the route the Train that would carry the Boosters had to take passed through an old, single track tunnel whose width was determined by the gauge of the cars passing through it. Consequently the design of the Shuttle, the pinicale of modern achivement can be, quite literally, traced back to an old horse's ass.

                  I plan to live forever ...
                  ... so far so good.

                  [This message was edited by Eomer on Feb. 07, 2003 at 07:29 AM.]
                  \"The fool on the hill\"

                  Comment


                  • Actually, I think as fun as that story is, it turns out it is another urban legend. I think snopes has a write up on it.

                    But it's a fun story all the same.

                    "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • So, nobody has addressed the question of WHY you think more/smaller gadgets=Progress=Good for All Mankind.

                      Let's take the washing machine. It was touted as Progress for all women when it was put on the market. It was to make women's lives easier, and give them more time to spend with their families. What happened instead? We raised the standards of cleanliness, and the washing machine ushered in an era of "More Work For Mother." Another of those little problems with progress that we historians of technology are always puzzling over.

                      Why is Progress so inextricably linked with gadgets? I think it's only one of many ways we could define progress. To say that communications technology and space trinkets have brought greater world peace would be innacurate, certainly, as we wait to go to "war" with a country we've been bombing for the past decade. The practice of genocide certainly didn't stop with space travel.

                      As it happens, this particular definition certainly favors the ruling classes of the U.S. and allows us to rationalize the ill effects of that drive for "progress." You know, when somebody makes a fuss about how the electronics workers in Malaysia get fired unless they show up for work even while practically giving birth and dropping over from exhaustion, all we need to do is say that technology is progress, and it's for the greater good, and then we feel better about the low cost of cell phones and dvd players, if we ever thought of that at all.

                      Naturally you will all dismiss me as anti-gadget and an eco-terrorist like pt (god, pt, I never knew you wanted to bring back slavery too!), but I only suggest that the use of industrial objects as a measure of progress is completely arbitrary. I'm interested in knowing why folks would rather define human progress as better, smaller cell phones instead of, say, an increase in women's political participation, or a reduction in exploitative child labor across the globe.

                      Comment


                      • I am all for rational discussion folks, but let's please remain civil to each other, ok? I will otherwise close the thread, as I have been asked to do.
                        Mal:This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then .... explode

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                          I'm interested in knowing why folks would rather define human progress as better, smaller cell phones instead of, say, an increase in women's political participation, or a reduction in exploitative child labor across the globe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          hobson, I believe that the basis for the what you describe is that scientific discovery and technologic development has and will continue to advance at at a more rapid pace than meaningful social progress.

                          I believe that the reason for the former can be ascribed to mankind's unlimitless curiousity and drive to explore the unnknown and to improve his physical condition .

                          IMHO, the basis for the latter is that as a race, mankind does have negative qualities (e.g. aggression, fear of those unlike themselves, selfishness, greed). Obviously, the degree to which any of these negative qualities manifest themselves in any given individual varies, and I think it is a fair statement, that in our daily lives many of us try to be "better people" by resisting the temptation to act on any of these negative qualities.

                          When these negative human qualities are taken advantage of on a societal level, however (e.g. Nazi Germany, repression of women under the Taliban), terrible social wrong can be done.

                          From this perspective, in a way, scientific discovery and technological advancement is almost "easier", because it allows us to look outside of ourselves (and our negative qualities).

                          In comparison, in a way, social progress is harder, because to achieve meaningful advancement, it requires us to face in no uncertain terms the negative qualities within.

                          IMHO, scientific discovery/technological advancement and social progress are by no means mutually exclusive. It is just that one cannot be considered a replacement for the other.

                          Comment


                          • Eomer, you provide a good synopsis of this discussion. Yes, folks have been repeating themselves, and you have simply echoed some of the same ideas others and I have stated. You are correct that science and engineering must consider its context within the greater good of humanity while pushing our knowledge and understanding forward. We as engineers must learn from our mistakes, and we will make mistakes, and strive to correct things for the better. That is progress. It does not have to be a major technologic development, consider bridge and building design.

                            Many new large-scale buildings and bridges are being designed with aesthetic considerations as a primary goal. Why? Because it pleases the populous that see them, thus affecting society in general. This in turn pushes engineering technology because some of these designs were impossible a few years ago due to the lack of types of materials or understanding of load pathways. In this case though the "beauty" of a device is closely tied to the design and function. Thus “progress” in certain forms of civil engineering is really the idea of integrating construction into its environment appropriately. (Yes, we all hate cookie cutter developments but I am not considering those here.)

                            The “opposing” viewpoint in this thread is the dehumanization that some technologies, such as the space program, seem to engender. Their outward appearance is artificial, sterile and devoid of nay human aspect. However, a discussion such as this, being carried out by people of many different viewpoints, from all over the world (consider people in places such as Europe and NZ can easily chime in here), would have been impossible even 10 years ago. Thus, some technologies being developed for use in space actually bring humanity closer and create those wonderful “gray areas” we all hate so well. ;-)

                            I feel that human progress in music, art, and literature comes from struggle and suffering. I believe the US has hit a major low point in its national psyche with the economy, 9/11, and the Columbia. It seems our system of life is being shattered. It is from this, that I think some great works of art will be born. They will be the leading edge of other forms of progress, bringing the humanity back to our world.


                            Reed

                            Comment


                            • Reed that was wonderful, I am going to send that to Mr Bumpkin. An Engineer through and through,even though his Employers have called him an "Artist".

                              "Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques" Bora Da
                              http://community.webshots.com/user/cotswoldjr
                              http://temp.hillcresttrainingnet.off...m/default.aspx
                              [url]
                              Starman Babies

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                              • This has certainly been an interesting thread and everyone has expressed their POV amply. I didn't start this discussion with the idea of convincing anyone of anything - just to air ideas, questions, etc. Hobson has also raised some questions from another angle. The thread has given us all some ideas to consider.

                                IMO, it isn't as easy as "techies vs. humanists." The whole issue is too complex for simple categorization. One thing that I find a bit disturbing, having been raised and educated by people who encouraged us to question everything, is the attitude some seem to have that the space program is sacred and that to raise any questions about it is outrageous and somehow threatening. I will leave you with the suggestion that nothing is above critical examination, even, perhaps especially, something so seductive as the space program.

                                OK, so it's Friday, it's colder than a witch's *** and I'm abandoning this discussion in favor of a good murder mystery in front of a roaring fire.

                                Cheers and thanks to all!

                                Comment


                                • DMK, snopes is a great site. But, after reading his rebuttle, I still think a valid argument can be made, using his information, for the tale that the Space Shuttle was design can be tied to a horses ass, and not the Wasington Bureucrat kind. Anyway I can hardly wait to read some of the other articles. Thanks!!!!!

                                  The problem with many of the anit-Tech/anti-space arguments is that they use what has been termed "logical fallicies".

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                  So, nobody has addressed the question of WHY you think more/smaller gadgets=Progress=Good for All Mankind.
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  This logic is flawed, first "nobody" (many/plural) diminished to "you" (one/singular) is not a one to one onto comparison. And, "more/smaller gadgets=Progress=Good for All Mankind" assumes that ALL arguments for space exploration have used "gadgetry" as fundamental precept; not true. I don't think anyone would consider the GPS system or weather satelites "gadgetry", on the order of a pocket calculator or cell phone. Both benifit mankind in untold numbers of saved lives each year, and that's only one bennifit of many that they provide. But, "gadgets" do bennifit mankind. Another logical falliacy is that they need to bennifit "ALL Mankind" to be worthy and valuable. I for one am really grateful that I had a graphing calculator to help me understand the power and wonder of Calculus. I started college in my twenties quit to work with my Father and went back and finished in my fourties. Anyone that used a slide rule will tell you how much more interesting and meaningful Mathematics becomes with the aid of a modern calculator. I belive young minds (which can be extrapolated to be bennificial to ALL MANKIND) going through college today have a much firmer understanding of the infinite (which is what, imho, calculus really teaches) than was possible before the space program spawned micro-processors and integrated circuit boards.

                                  as KT say's ... "Just a Thought"

                                  I plan to live forever ...
                                  ... so far so good.
                                  \"The fool on the hill\"

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:

                                    Let's take the washing machine. It was touted as Progress for all women when it was put on the market. It was to make women's lives easier, and give them more time to spend with their families. What happened instead? We raised the standards of cleanliness, and the washing machine ushered in an era of "More Work For Mother." Another of those little problems with progress that we historians of technology are always puzzling over.
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I think your general point is good, but I personally find the washing machine to be a great timesaver. I'm not by any means a slave to cleanliness - I think perhaps us barn types are more immune to that than some.

                                    But it's true that the more neat things we have, the more we want. I see so many kids riding expensive ponies in expensive places, and I think, do I want my child to grow up in this? I wonder how it changes her outlook that a normal size TV is bigger than she is and that most people don't walk to school or the store. I want my child to know that food doesn't come from a factory wrapped in plastic. Etc.
                                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                    Comment


                                    • quote:
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I feel that human progress in music, art, and literature comes from struggle and suffering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      As a writer -- although I would not call the stuff I write literature -- I beg to differ. I see this kind of statement as the sort of mythology that surrounds the creation of anything that could be considered art.

                                      Art -- when it relates to horrific events as in the case of Picasso's Guernica -- comes not so much from human suffering itself as from the artist's ability to reflect on those events and express them through his/her art. In the absence of catastrophe, the artist would still be creating art and still reflecting on the world around him. But great art can come from anywhere; it is not the beneficiary of human suffering and frankly, we could always do without the suffering.

                                      Moreover, the notion of 'progress' in the arts as necessarily connected to struggle and suffering is something I just don't understand. 'Progress', if defined as new forms of expression, can be the result of new technology (i.e. casting techniques, digital media, oil paint, the camera) or an individual with a idea that breaks the mold (Louis Armstrong, James Joyce, Picasso). There does not have to be any suffering involved.

                                      One can argue that a lot of great art came out of the Holocaust, but one can also argue that a lot of great artists were lost to the Holocaust. Art continues in spite of human suffering, not because of it.

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
                                        So, nobody has addressed the question of WHY you think more/smaller gadgets=Progress=Good for All Mankind.

                                        Let's take the washing machine. It was touted as Progress for all women when it was put on the market. It was to make women's lives easier, and give them more time to spend with their families. What happened instead? We raised the standards of cleanliness, and the washing machine ushered in an era of "More Work For Mother." Another of those little problems with progress that we historians of technology are always puzzling over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                        Hobson I've actually spent months at a time living in primitive field camps. Hauling water in buckets, washing clothing by hand and cooking over open fires. Your comparison does not hold up. The amount of time taken by daily tasks in primitive conditions is immense. Huge. I REFUSE to beleive that this is the age of "More Work for Mother".. anyone who has used a mangle to wash bedsheets can refute that. It may be the age of "More Driving the Mini-Van around for Mother" but that's a whole 'nother story.

                                        I'm not a big gadget fan myself, but it's ridiculous to say that this is a new thing. The first person to make a stone knife probably immediately wanted 7 other types for different tasks. Gadgets are just tools to me and to most people. They are status symbols to others but those same people would likely be interested in status symbols no matter what age they lived in.

                                        Industrial conditions will improve in countries when people work together to have them improve, same as they during the Industrail Revolution in Europe. I've been through a huge union-organizing effort before. It's a critical mass effect. It will happen. On the positive side foreign investment is often a stablizing influence on regions. Look at the effect that the software industry based in India had when they were a hairsbreadth from nuclear war. From what friends tell me and the media reports the growing middle class in India, and the international business communitie interest in keeping the region stable has been a powerful tool for peace.

                                        There are two equal sides to every coin and those that refuse to acknowledge that are doomed to futility, no matter how good their intentions or how sound their principles.

                                        This is a really interesting discussion.

                                        Comment


                                        • Thomas Friedman's The Lexus and the Olive Tree had an interesting observation: no two countries that both have McDonalds had ever gone to war with each other. A middle class strong enough to support a McDonalds is presumably never going to support a war with an equally developed country.



                                          It's not really the core of the book, and I know the idea annoyed a lot of people. But it's kind of an interesting thought to have rattling around in one's brain. (It's a good book and very readable even without considering it's about economics.)

                                          Umm. The topic. I love the idea of humans in space, and colonizing other planets. I cried when I saw the tape of the shuttle falling bit by bit. And the only reason I don't desire to be part of the first Mars colony is that I don't think they'd let me have horses there.

                                          (Velvet, how DID you get around that?)
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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