Instructors and Trainers... Talking students?

[Trevelyan96]

I tend to be chatty, while I'm TRYING to do what the instructor is telling me, but I always have this insatiable need to either know exactly WHY they're asking me, what part of the horse its affecting, or to share with them why I am TRYING BUT NOT SUCCEEDING in doing what they're asking.. Some trainers are OK with it, others are not. Usually if I find one who doesn't want my input at all, then I know they are not the trainer for me, because I don't want to deal with a trainer who doesn't welcome questions and discussion. It takes a certain amount of people skills to be a teacher, if you don't want to talk TO your students, only to talk AT them, then you're in the wrong business. (I'm not saying this is what the OP is doing BTW). I'm perfectly OK with being asked to talk about it at the walk break or when the lesson is over, but don't treat me like a mindless idoit please.

[Go Fish]

I don't talk much, unless you count the squeeeeeeling when those long distances come up.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I think also there is a big difference between chatting as a pretense to procrastinate and verbalizing something to help you understand the concept more clearly. I completely trust my trainer, and if I thought there was an issue (if I was very apprehensive about something, for example) I could just tell her that flat out and we would figure out a way to help me get there. But sometimes I can make that connection and whammo! it's "mine!"

Generally, if I am that fried, I won't ride, and I will limit what I do on the ground, because all I will end up doing is letting my horse know subliminally that yes, it is totally okay to be fried, hunched over, on your forehand, whatever.

[Transplant]

I honestly want communication between student and instructor, but their also needs to be application of instruction, not just a "ya, that's a good idea... maybe I'll try that after I tell you something else," attitude.

I'm not a talker during lessons but I must have driven one instructor crazy when I'd say uh-huh to an instruction and never did it. I was so concentrated on my horse and yet so geared to respond to my instructor immediately that the uh-huh popped out before I even heard her clearly so at some level I must have thought the uh-huh was all the response needed.

Another instructor however gave us instructions like, 'Get her into a comfortable forward going walk and when you get it to your satisfaction, then ask for the trot' or 'Get a good rhythmic trot that feels comfortable and then choose a place to ask her to bend around a 10m circle.' I had to think then and not just react to the instructor and I had time to process what she wanted.

[Gloria]

Maybe they "were" trying? Just didn't look like it? OMG, how many times my lunge lesson instructor tells me to rotate my left leg from hip down clockwise so my left leg lay flat against the saddle, and not gribbing my horse with the back of my calf? And there I was, thinking, my knee WAS pointing forward.. I WAS NOT gribbing... My dressage instructor used to yell at me, "KEEP YOUR HANDS QUIET!" There I was, thinking "darn, I thought my hands WERE quiet"

It takes forever to be a good rider and take ridicuously amount of tries to get anything right. Did they not say that it take at least 200 times for a change to set in? After being reminded for two hundred times of various ways, I finally got it

[EqTrainer]

Oh, this thread is making me laugh. Recently I have had a resurgence of students saying "I know" when I tell them to do something.

All I can think is.. "Really? If you know, then WHY DID I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO DO IT?!!!"

And.. "then why are you paying me to tell you if you already know?!!!"

I know that it's just a response and they are not thinking about what they are saying but

so fellow instructors, do you just ignore this like I do? Or.. well, what DO you do?

[sidepasser]

Being new to dressage, there are terms used that I don't understand. That is why I chat..my instructor will tell me to do something and I will ask why, what is it, etc. We've decided that at the beginning of the lesson, he explains what he wants to accomplish THAT day, if he uses terms I am not familiar with, I take the time to ask him to explain in "simple english" what it is he wants. Then no more questions or discussion until the walk break, where he tells me another step in the process and I ask questions, then we proceed. I am very good at "just doing" what he requests if I know what it is that is being requested - lol.

When someone is very new to a type of riding, they may know horses and they may understand w/t/c, but may be like myself, very iffy about certain terms they have read about only and have no idea how to perform. It's one thing to "see" a lengthening of stride but may be quite another to figure out the mechanics of HOW to do it. Same with a half halt, I knew what is was, but had no idea how to actually perform it, or why it was so useful, so I chattered away until I understood the concept, the mechanics involved, then RODE and did as directed. Works for us and I've progressed a lot using that method.

No chatter during the doing part though, I have to concentrate on those directions flying at my wee brain and convince my body that yes, I do have two legs and two arms that can work independent of each other..no time to chat when instructor is saying "half-halt, now forward, outside rein, shoulders back, quit hunching over, now h a l t...walk on..

jeez, it's a wonder my brain isn't mush by now.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Maybe they "were" trying? Just didn't look like it? OMG, how many times my lunge lesson instructor tells me to rotate my left leg from hip down clockwise so my left leg lay flat against the saddle, and not gribbing my horse with the back of my calf? And there I was, thinking, my knee WAS pointing forward.. I WAS NOT gribbing... My dressage instructor used to yell at me, "KEEP YOUR HANDS QUIET!" There I was, thinking "darn, I thought my hands WERE quiet"

I know, right? I'm struggling with re-rider hamstrings and only partially-broken-in boots, so I often think I have deep heels when my foot is absolutely parallel to the ground!

[SarahandSam]

Different learning styles. Or it could be nerves--some people talk more, others clam up.

I actually have the opposite problem: I have difficulty talking and doing at the same time, mainly because I concentrate so hard. My brain gets in the way of my body Even answering a simple question ("what are you going to do before this transition?") with a simple answer ("sit up and half halt") breaks my concentration. This is something I work on, since I realize that all the discussion can't just happen before or after. I can be talked through about just about anything, but it tends to be a one sided conversation. My instructor has realized over time that just because my responses are nods, uh-huhs and OKs doesn't mean I'm not listening. I'm quite capable of long discussions on theory and mechanics, just not when I'm trying to do it. We use walk breaks for discussion time on the what/when/why, so the instructor knows I understand what I'm doing.

I think adult students are far more sensitive to whether the instructor's style meshes with their own. As a kid, I never cared (I was just happy to ride, especially before getting Missy). Now I find that their are some instructors who are "too chatty" for my tastes, which in no way means that they aren't competent, just not for me.

Yep, that's me too--I'll be chatty during walk breaks and things like that, but during an exercise I clam up a lot. I sometimes forget even to acknowledge a direction by nodding or saying okay... and this really caused a lot of friction between my former trainer and me, because she would start screaming at me for not listening or following directions, and I'd get frustrated and angry because I was listening and trying to do the right thing. Fortunately my current instructor doesn't seem to mind... but I make a conscious effort to try to show that I'm listening, at least.

[SarahandSam]

Oh, this thread is making me laugh. Recently I have had a resurgence of students saying "I know" when I tell them to do something.

All I can think is.. "Really? If you know, then WHY DID I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO DO IT?!!!"

And.. "then why are you paying me to tell you if you already know?!!!"

I know that it's just a response and they are not thinking about what they are saying but

so fellow instructors, do you just ignore this like I do? Or.. well, what DO you do?

Just to provide a student's perspective here... a lot of times I DO know it--but I forgot to do it! Usually the moments where I say "I know..." it's because I'm already beating myself up for not doing something I know I should have been doing. It's not that I'm trying to be bratty, it's just that I'm frustrated with myself. (:

[Mav226]

Processing verbally or being a verbal learner is different from chattering throughout the lesson. If the person asks a question or tries to clarify something AND then proceeds to correct or improve the problem they were having, then, they are learning. If, on the other hand, they talk about improving but don't make any improvement, then they are chattering, NOT learning, and not benefiting from the instruction they have been given.

I'm an auditory learner too. But that means I listen carefully to what I am being taught, not that I need a constant 2 way conversation. During a lesson, I typically don't speak unless I'm asked a direct question, or if I need to acknowledge that I understand something.

I'm paying for the lesson, I'd rather learn and improve.

I would tell the rider to concentrate and then after the exercise provide time to discuss. Make it a habit that during the lesson there is no chatting, but provide time every 15 minutes or so for the rider to come in to the center and give input. Basically, when you're on the rail your mouth is closed unless you have a very pressing and important question that can't wait.

[eventchic33]

My usual response to that is "Well since Dobbin is such a saint for putting up with you why don't we give him a reward by learning how to do this exercise better so its easier on him."

That being said I prefer my students to communicate with me through out the whole lesson as talking tends to keep them a little more relaxed and strangely enough a little more focused. I don't want them staring at me reading my lips but I do want expression of what they are feeling, thinking etc. It helps both me and my students pinpoint when and how something goes wrong and give greater comprehension of when something goes right.

[Ambrey]

I think based on my own experience that pointing out that the student is not putting in the effort is one thing, but discouraging her own coping mechanisms, which may include talking, laughing, etc., is another thing. Laughing at oneself is a really good way to avoid the dispair that can come from being an older re-rider. Praising your horse for putting up with you is a part of that.

But, yeah, being reminded that the progress won't come without a little pain is sometimes necessary. I won't promise that every student will take it well, but it's the cold hard truth.

Maybe some of the students who are in similar situations can share what their trainers do that helps? My trainer didn't start out feeling comfortable telling me to get up off my fat ass and get to work (he is now, almost made me cry the other day but he was right so I did. He didn't use exactly those words, though ). But he started out saying things like "it's not going to feel comfortable at first, but you're going to have to push yourself through it until your body learns how to do it that way" and "it's not the natural way for your body to move, but unless you practice doing it that way you're body is never going to learn." I would say recognizing that as we get older, our bodies are sometimes our enemies is a plus

[Nomoreusernames]

If I had a dime for every time I heard, "Stop talking, stop analyzing and RIDE", I'd be a millionaire.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Maybe some of the students who are in similar situations can share what their trainers do that helps?

Mine says, "I know you don't think you can do this, but I need you to at least try it a few times." and "You don't even have to succeed at it for very long, but you need to try it."

[Transplant]

Oh, this thread is making me laugh. Recently I have had a resurgence of students saying "I know" when I tell them to do something.

All I can think is.. "Really? If you know, then WHY DID I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO DO IT?!!!"

And.. "then why are you paying me to tell you if you already know?!!!"

I know that it's just a response and they are not thinking about what they are saying but

so fellow instructors, do you just ignore this like I do? Or.. well, what DO you do?

Well, you can say what one of my instructors said. She told us, 'You know, all these things I'm telling you over and over again, you can tell yourself and guess what? You can tell yourself, BEFORE I TELL YOU! You should know them all by heart now.'

It worked. Although we did have a laugh when I told myself to put my leg back and then she told me to move it forward. What are you going to do?

[Sonesta]

I much prefer the student who chats as she tries than the student who, when given an instruction, instead tells me all the reasons she ISN'T doing it or why she is doing it a different way or how SHE thinks the HER horse prefers it a different way, etc, etc, etc. Those make me crazy.

[Ambrey]

Oh, this thread is making me laugh. Recently I have had a resurgence of students saying "I know" when I tell them to do something.

All I can think is.. "Really? If you know, then WHY DID I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO DO IT?!!!"

And.. "then why are you paying me to tell you if you already know?!!!"

I know that it's just a response and they are not thinking about what they are saying but

so fellow instructors, do you just ignore this like I do? Or.. well, what DO you do?

I can think of two of my own experiences that could apply here.

One is "things people tell me and I know are correct but for some reason passive-aggressively refuse to do anyway." These include things that are anxiety-inducing, things that disrupt ingrained patterns (a.k.a. require overcoming inertia) or otherwise things that I'm finding psychologically difficult to do. Think of the line from "When Harry Met Sally" that goes "You're right, you're right, I know you're right" which implies "but I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing anyway because I can't help it."

The other is "things that I'm trying to do but am having physical difficulty with." This would include things like "toes parallel to the horse and not sticking out like duck feet" and "don't tip forward" and "don't bring your hands up while you're trotting." These are things that creep up on me without my being aware, and when they are pointed out I want to say "I know! Isn't that annoying, why are my (hands, toes, whatever) doing that?"

Anyway, the thing that my trainer tells me that helps me with the second is to have a tape in your head on a repeating loop that includes all of those little niggling issues. I thought it was brilliant advice.

For the first one, my trainer uses his "kick in the ass" look, and says "well, if you know, then do it" unless he can tell it's anxiety related in which case he might go a little easy on me- but not a lot.

Anyway, this method works pretty well, and I am both inertia-prone AND a physical mess- so the fact that I'm making progress and haven't learned to hate either my trainer or riding must mean that whatever he does works

[vacation1]

At least she's not cursing. I get so frustrated with myself sometimes that an occasional profanity just comes out.

[Czar]

Oh, this thread is making me laugh. Recently I have had a resurgence of students saying "I know" when I tell them to do something.

All I can think is.. "Really? If you know, then WHY DID I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO DO IT?!!!"

And.. "then why are you paying me to tell you if you already know?!!!"

I know that it's just a response and they are not thinking about what they are saying but

so fellow instructors, do you just ignore this like I do? Or.. well, what DO you do?

I find it quite annoying when a student replies "I know" to an instruction even if it is just an automatic response. However, it's all in the tone - a flustered adult that says "I know, I know" is MUCH different than a snooty teen that quips "I know" after receiving an instruction.

This is quite a timely thread as I have a student right now that drives me absolutely CRAZY with her talking. She natters at her poor pony from the moment that she gets her in the crossties, during the whole lesson, and afterwards as well. She's in group lessons and is always trying to talk to me while another student is doing an exercise (I pretend I can't hear her) or wants to dissect every step of the exercise BEFORE she's even done it.

It's particularily frustrating when 3 riders have gone before her and it's her turn and she turns to me and says "Now, where do I go first?" or "Is that a 2 stride?". I finally had to tell her to stop talking and start doing last week.

She has some serious issues (her mom and I have talked) and I realize that I have to teach her somewhat differently but I won't completely change my expectations. This particular student would talk for her entire lesson and she doesn't NEED to...when directed, she is able to participate. If I catered too much to her; it would be doing her a disservice (not to mention the 3 other riders in her lesson).

Part of being a good teacher is being able to read people not just doing or saying whatever they want. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a LESSON. If you have the attitude "Well I'm paying" than you are probably not going to get very much out of the lesson.

Again, every one DOES have different learning/teaching styles - I would say that instead of expecting a trainer to dance to your tune that you find an instructor that teaches in the same style you learn.