• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Professional pictures and fees for use

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Laurie, as long as you have the permission of everyone who took the photos, I don't think copyright is an issue.

    But be forewarned... I've visited sites that have attempted to make it impossible to download their pictures (in the usual click-and-save-to-your-HD manner)... I've been able to get around it every time!

    (As a disclaimer, these were photos I had permission to use, but were emailed to me in an unusable format... so rather than go thorugh the runaround with various PR people, I just copied them from the website directly. )

    I would make sure there's some kind of watermark or copyright notice ON each photo.

    Comment


    • In another direction....
      My daughter shows her pony at a winter circuit and is Champion in Hunters and Eq. The pony is for sale. The photos taken at the show are off in terms of timing, poles sprouting out of heads, many factors that make it so we do not buy any photos to go in those Champion frames. Several weeks later, one of those less than flattering photos is published in the results in COTH. While we are very happy to have a picture in COTH, a photo taken too early doesn't reflect well on the pony for sale. I'm not sure what anyone could do here, other than the show hiring a better photographer.
      I usually buy at least one photo of each of our horses, but if the price is set too high, I will pass. There is one local photographer here Donna Shirery who takes many nice photos, over fences and candids. Her prices are reasonable and I buy many photos, extra prints for the Grandmas, etc. But I've also been to shows with mediocre photos for double the cost and a less than cordial attitude from a "BNP". I don't buy.
      One interesting experience was a show where the photographer took incredible 4x6 shots (especially of the jumpers - how exciting can a Long Stirrup shot be?) and sold them for $20 each, all rights to the buyer. He said it was getting too difficult to deal with different pricing structures and eliminated the hassle of enlargements, etc. He was selling ALOT at a very small show.

      Comment


      • Thanks, Been There and others. I don't know why prophoto insists that I'm a web designer despite me repeatedly saying that I do not do websites! Or why she/he wants to then try to belittle me for the prices of a service I don't offer!

        I do want to apologize to Erin though for calling Terri a prima donna - this is the second time. That is the only name I've called even though I myself have been personally attacked to the level I haven't done to ANYONE.

        I will answer the question of prophoto, though, even though she/he didn't ASK the question, just nastily assumed facts not present, about who is buying photos, client or graphic designer. I answered before that the client buys the photos. In the case of the web design, prophoto - listen up, please! - I WAS THE CLIENT!!!!!!!! So I WAS BUYING THE PHOTOS!!!! AS I'VE STATED, I DON'T DO WEB DESIGN!!!!!! SO I HIRED SOMEONE TO DO IT!!!!!!! SO I WAS THE CLIENT!!!! GET IT?

        Now, go micro-criticize someone else.

        Comment


        • BEEN THERE

          I said visitors not hits. A visitor is defined as a series of hits, with no idle time of 30 minutes or more between any two hits, from the same IP address.

          Believe it. 10,000 visitors a month.

          I have a breeding business website that I work with that had 1202 visitors yesterday.

          A good website will bring you a ton of traffic.


          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by been there:
          Oh and Tiger Lily, nice try but I - as a vetern web designer - just ain't buying it!!

          The site you are referencing, #1, is a horse show site - not someone's farm site to sell a stallion breeding or horse for sale!

          And "hits" ain't "unique visitors"!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Comment


          • Holy cow.

            I haven't been able to follow this, b/c some of the posts are quite long-winded, but this thread seems to be getting rather nasty.

            *J*

            "Is that YOUR funky tune?"-Raymond T.
            -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

            Comment


            • Tiger Lily, I don't buy it either. I have lots of friends with horse websites, multiple stallions, etc.

              For the horse SHOW site, yeah, but not a private barn standing stallions or horses for sale which is the main type of market that is being discussed here.

              Also, those 10,000 per month EVERY MONTH are ALL new, never been to the site before? - no, I think not and you can try to define your idea of unique visitors any way you want but unless it is a unique ip address, I'm not buying it. Different tracking software all track what is "unique" differently, so you really have to determine what is important. In the context of this conversation, we are talking about how many actual (different) people will see a photo on a site - not the same few people logging in several times or coming back every month.

              But again, the site you referenced is for a horse show so I imagine many exhibitors would be looking at it - very different from what we were talking about which is a farm with stallions or horses for sale.

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Northbeach:
                Tiger Lily, I don't buy it either. I have lots of friends with horse websites, multiple stallions, etc.

                For the horse SHOW site, yeah, but not a private barn standing stallions or horses for sale which is the main type of market that is being discussed here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Well, I will ask permission from my breeder client to share more information with you about those stats.

                I also am telling you that I own and operate a horse for sale website, basically classifieds. I get an average of 2700 VISITORS per month. I will put my Urchin reports up and post the link if you like.

                Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on tracking softwares. These terms are industry standard and have to be that way because alot of advertising cash rides on them. Just ask DoubleClick, AOL or Yahoo. Here are links to two definitions from independent third-parties:

                Webopedia

                Interactive Jargon Buster

                Hope that helps clarify web stats.

                I want to add that I take your point about the usage rights of a photo and how many individual human beings will view it. But individual human beings cannot be counted by any software unless you force them to authenticate themselves.

                However, I would also add that putting any photo up on the web makes it vulnerable to theft. There is no scheme for image protection that can secure images 100% on the web. The Internet is a relatively new market and there are unknown challenges for all kinds of business people.

                Let me know if you want to view some stats!

                Comment


                • In fact, why wait? Here is a link to a page with my one year web stats in two formats. The stats in the table include visitors, page views, hits and bytes. This website is for sale horses.

                  Click to view the stats

                  Comment


                  • something to consider about web traffic... I often go to a few websites that I have bookmarked to then use their links to get to my eventual "destination". I am sure that my "trail" would constitute a visit at each web page - when really I am just taking the easy way (without going to google) to get where I want to go.

                    Comment


                    • Also, I don't know how many times I go to a website, then the kids call & need something, I have to check something on the stove, the wash needs to be moved to the dryer, etc, by the time I get back to the website EACH time I have to step away, 30 minutes or more may pass. How many times does that count as a unique visitor for my really spending only 5-10 real minutes on the site?

                      Comment


                      • Yikes, cehilton!!! You need to learn some things about design work!

                        First of all, designers don't copyright. The client does. When we are hired to do a web design, we KNOW that the client is using it for ADVERTISING. That means that they are going to use the overall look (or they should use it) for brochures, fliers, postcards, whatever. We EXPECT them to use the design in other things - it is THEIR copyright and it is good marketing!!!!

                        Second, designers don't put their name on brochures - again, the only thing that shows up on a brochure is the CLIENT'S copyright. Our name is rarely on any peice we design. An exception to that would be MAYBE a magazine ad and even then, all that a designer puts on it is "designed by so and so" NEVER a copyright unless it is the CLIENT'S copyright. Look at stallion ads in the Chronicle - the most you ever see is the designed by so and so blurb.

                        Also, take a look at non-equine brochures and non-equine websites. Take a look at any photo that is on one of them. Do you see a photographer credit or copyright? 9 times out of 10 you do not. THAT is standard business practices. This stuff going on with equine photographers is not.

                        You really should do a little bit of research on this stuff before you outline such an outlandish scenerio.

                        Comment


                        • Answer to Charles

                          I do not make $300 / hour, I charge $100 per hour as most professional photographers do. My web sites are very heavy on the back end and extremely graphical on the front end. My graphics are never clip art and always custom to each site. I deal with mainly midsized coporations with an "Image" to maintain. They do not want the quick off design from some off the shelf program, etc but a look that is not "template" looking. My designs allow the cutomer to update the web site. They do not have to call me to change text and some of the photos. I have many shopping cart sites, all custom programmed interfaces for those sites. My equine sites that I have done typically run between $800 and $3000 on the top end. The $800 sites do not have the user update features, etc.

                          The photographer KNOWS when coming to a place of business or a farm that he is not their to produce "art work," but rather to produce something for ad usage.

                          If someone BOUGHT my web site design from me and wanted to convert it to, say, a brochure and did not use me? I'd say, go for it. They paid for the design, I expect everything they do to define them as a company. If there web site looks one way and the brochures and flyers look another, I would say "Get a new marketing person, you got trouble!" The key to advertising is continuity in the work - all should match. I do not hold the copyright to my design work - the client does - they paid GOOD MONEY for the design and it should be theirs. Your right, with my way of thinking, there is nothing wrong with that (BTW, it's not just my way of thinking, but also the way of thinking of the majority of designers that deal with clients of any size. The only "designers" that copyright their work are those who are not real designers or do it part time and do not know any better. If someone copies the web site and uses the design as their own without paying my client, we will both be on the phone with my client's lawyer. As far as you putting my name on the brochure, you wouldn't do that because WE do not put OUR name on any brochures, business cards, letterheads, flyers, etc. That IS UNPROFESSIONAL in our field. That is like the printer of the material putting his copyright on the material for the printing! You could get really out of control in this, imagine...Brochure copyright this company, design copyright that company, photos copyright this photographer, that photographer and that photographer, printing copyright this printer, text copyright of this writer, editing copyright of this editor... MY GOD, get control! THE ONLY COPYRIGHT that ever shows up on ANY of my work for coporations is that of the company that paid me to do it.

                          CH
                          You are right about the photographer you have hired, I can't discuss for him, why or how he chooses to do his business. I know many commercial photographers who would never give away their copyright without charging so much that your jaw would crack as it hit the ground for the shock of it. Not only that but if you could get them it would blow your budget for any web site.

                          Me
                          This simply is not true, not a single photographer that I have ever hired has had less than 10 years Professional experience. They are not students, they are not just starting out. They typically charge between $100 and $200 (super high end) per hour for studio work, plus development cost.

                          CH
                          In the above reasoning, I would ask you to go back to using the photo or what ever to have a commercial during the Super Bowl. That would be ok if you expected the network that is hosting the game to charge the same for advertising then as the do at about 3:30 am. It is all the same amount of time so it shouldn't cost more because there are more viewers watching the Prime Time Super Bowl than something running at 3:30am. I can't even imagine anyone getting enough response to have one let alone several of those time spots on the Super Bowl. There are companies that pay it though. By the time the game is over how much do you think was spent on all the advertising, tickets, party's etc that goes on?

                          Me
                          All I have to say about this is Apples to Oranges - try to compare like things here. I also did not say it was worth the money to advertise during the Super Bowl, just that the photographer that took a photo that appeared in the commercial should not get more money for the photo. The camera man did not get more money, the producer of the commercial did not get more money, the director nor the ad agency got more money because of how many people are going to see it. It is rediculous for a photographer to think they should.

                          Thanks Charles,

                          See ya around.

                          BTW, everyone else, Ansel Adams produced art work, someone hired by a show office to take photos, who then turns around and sells them for editorial use and ad use is hardly in the same league. Adams was not hired to take his famed photos by a show office or a corporation - that is part of what makes them so special.

                          Comment


                          • &gt;&gt;All I have to say about this is Apples to Oranges - try to compare like things here. I also did not say it was worth the money to advertise during the Super Bowl, just that the photographer that took a photo that appeared in the commercial should not get more money for the photo. The camera man did not get more money, the producer of the commercial did not get more money, the director nor the ad agency got more money because of how many people are going to see it. It is rediculous for a photographer to think they should.&gt;&gt;

                            Did you know that the NFL, who owns outright the copyright to all footage shot of all NFL games, charges $3,000 per second as a license fee to advertisers to use this footage in tv commercials? No, the camera man did not get paid more for the footage that was used, but neither is he an independent contractor: he is a paid employee of the NFL, using NFL's equipment, covered by NFL's employee health insurance program, eligible for Workman's Comp and unemployment benefits. Independent contractor (most photographers) vs. employee (most network cameramen) is also comparing apples to oranges.

                            I would assume that the folks who create Pepsi/Nike/Budweiser spots are getting a tad more for those spots than for producing commercials for the local Mile Of Cars. I'd be curious to know how it works in this field -- is anyone on the board in that industry?


                            Terri Miller
                            www.TerriMiller.com
                            Photos & Commissioned Paintings

                            Comment


                            • Ummm, Terri. Yes, they are often times independent contractors. MANY MANY MANY of the cameramen/women as well as audio people, etc are independent contractors. They get paid for doing a JOB not royalties. PHotographers should figure it out. The rest of us have.

                              Comment


                              • Terri,

                                I am not referring to the footage of a football game, I am speaking of the commercials that run during said football game - these people who shot and produce these commercials, ie cameraman(photographers), producers (show offic) do not get paid more because the commercial is being shown to more people! The network is the one making all the money off the airtime!

                                BTW - They are not employees of the NFL, usually they are independent contractors or they work for the network that is covering the game ie ABC, FOX, etc.

                                Comment


                                • Hi GD,

                                  Sorry if I wasn't clear: I was using the example of NFL footage as an example of licensed images. The copyright holder (NFL) licenses the images (footage) to clients (advertisers) for various uses. The license fee ($3,000.00 per second of footage) allows the advertiser to use these images for the purpose of advertising their product on national television (and I don't know if this is a flat fee that applies to an unlimited number of ad placements, or only allows a certain number of placements, for a certain number of months). This parallels a photographer (copyright holder) licensing images (still photos) to clients (advertisers) for a specified purpose.

                                  I stand corrected about indy camera operators. You can therefore be pretty sure that their contracts state that they are "work for hire," in other words, specifically handing the rights to the footage over to the network and/or NFL.

                                  I'll try to clarify my previous question: do the producers of television commercials get paid more because they are producing a spot that is targeted toward a large national audience, i.e. a Budweiser ad, with the expectation that it will be placed 1000's of times on network tv, than they would for producing a spot that is targeted toward a smaller local market, i.e advertising a horse show (we can dream!), expected to be placed 5 times on one local cable channel? Or does the ad agency, which created the spot, get a percentage of the placement fee every time they place the ad, thereby earning more for nationally targeted spots?
                                  www.TerriMiller.com
                                  Photos & Commissioned Paintings

                                  Comment


                                  • Thanks for finally agreeing with us Terri!

                                    The NFL is the "client" - they own the copyright - they hired photographers, camerapeople, etc to put together a "composite" ie the football game for the sole purpose of selling something - tickets, commercials, images, etc.

                                    Much the same way is your and mine clients. The client hires photograpers, graphic designers, videographers, etc to put together "composites" ie brochures, website, magazine ads for the sole purpose of selling something - horses for sale, stallion breedings, training, etc.

                                    The "client" owns the copyright for the composite not the camerapeople, not the graphic people, and certainly not the photographers.

                                    If you want to create "art" defined as creating YOUR composit either from YOUR viewpoint or imagination, by all means, keep it and sell it. But you can't then say it is "editorial" or for "commercial" use and then treat it all the same way.

                                    Many times, it is the client or the designer who is TELLING the photographer what angle, how close, sets up the lighting, and tells the photographer what "look" is needed for the intended use. The photographer is little more than an equipment operator - definately not creating their own "art". A comparasion would be the landscape designer who tells the bobcat operator where and how he/she wants the land terraced. Do we expect the bobcat operator to be "good"? Yes, and we expect the photographer to know how to take a proper photo. Is the bobcat operator making "composite art" - no and neither is the photographer.

                                    If you want to "create" art everytime you snap a photo of a horse, thats fine but don't then hire yourself out for commercial use or cover an equestrain event for photographs to be used for editorial use and expect it to be seen as and paid for the same as your "art". It isn't.

                                    Comment


                                    • Some really great points Northbeach.

                                      Writers is another area the photographers could look at to get more realistic in their pricing. Writers write novels, short stories, etc and retain the copyrights - sometimes, not all of the time. But then writers also write text for ads, commercials, websites, press releases, radio spots, - ie commercial and editorial use. When they do, they sell it to the "client" and the client retains the copyright. Writers do NOT have to have their name plastered all over a brochure or have to have their name announced on a radio ad and they don't just lease the copy out for a certain number of years.

                                      It really is the difference between "creating" art and commercial or editorial usage. Photographers realistically can't expect their market to treat it all the same.

                                      Comment


                                      • {cover an equestrain event for photographs to be used for editorial use and expect it to be seen as and paid for the same as your "art". }

                                        Northbeach - I don't know what your editorial experience is, but I can tell you as a professional photojournalist for 10 years, I have never had a designer or editor "telling" me how to shoot an assingment.

                                        I both work full time for a daily paper, and freelance both commercially and editorially. The majority of my freelance work is equine, and again I can tell you, I have never been told how to shoot an assingment.

                                        Most of the images that illustrate the feature stories (those stories that are about a certian person, not a how to) in our major equestrian magazines are stock photos, that being, images that we photographers have already made, not from an assingment.

                                        When it comes to an assingment, editors come to me for my journalistic approach to the art. The most direction I have is the angle the story is written from and the major points. From there it is up to my eye and creativity. The editor is not at the shoot, the creative director is not at the shoot.

                                        Amy

                                        "I'll use CAPITALS, lowercase or sanscrit until the font police come and get me," Josh Lyman, The West Wing
                                        http://www.akdragoophoto.com

                                        Comment


                                        • Photoequs, you must not have been on very many varieties of shoots!

                                          Often times, photographers are told EXACTLY what kind of shot is needed to illustrate a predetermined story - for example, a story on braiding a mane - the photographer is told to get a close-up shot of when you start the braid, a close-up shot of crossing the three strands over, a close-up shot of tying off the braid, looping it under, etc, then the photographer is told to stand back and get a shot of the whole horse with the finished product. I don't call this art, do you?

                                          Also, for editorial use of a horse race/car race/whatever, the photographer may be told to get a photo of the horses right as they cross the finish line, then get a shot of the horse with the winning jockey onboard in the winner's circle, etc. Again, I don't call this art.

                                          In the studio, it is even more controlled, especially for a brochure of a product. The product is set-up and the photographer is told to shoot the product, say a computer case and monitor, from a particular angle. The the monitor is taken away and the photograhper is told to take the photo of just the case, then just the monitor, then a keyboard is added, etc. This is similar to a farm call where the owner wants photos for ads, websites, whatever. The owner will tell the photographer that they want a "conformation" shot, then they want a trotting in-hand shot shown from the side, then they want a couple over fences shot, etc. Does the photographer have to do a good job, offer suggestions, get the light right, focus? Well, yes, just like a bobcat operator should be able to competently operate the bobcat and smooth the ground out right, and offer suggestions on how to get the desired results. Doesn't make it art, though!

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X