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Professional pictures and fees for use

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  • #81
    Ahhh, the poor little prima donna photographer got her feelings hurt!!! Why can't people like you participate in a discussion unless people blow sunshine at you? I said nothing that was offensive to you and have pointed to several instances where photographers were just plain unethical NONE Of which was you.

    As far as the photo sites, that was in reference to the other poster who was talking about working with ad agencies - not horse photos so don't know why that set you off, other than you just can't handle the discussion.

    As far as lawgirl is concerned, you can have your opinion and I and many others can have ours. The lawsuits ARE being filed and being won - the url I directed you to is just one that I happened to find quickly on the internet. The Cigar case is rather old now and not on so many sites any more.

    I never said that Terris or Susans work was not good. I just don't agree with the way they and other photographers charge and apparently many agree with me. Stomp away Terri, you've just made me more resilient in my belief that most professional photographers are too difficult to deal with!

    Comment


    • #82
      Oh, one more thing, what a stupid analogy about the saddle makes the rider. Grow up!

      Now tell me that a professional photographer can take a $350 photo with a cannon sureshot...I wouldn't hire them!!!! Maybe you'd be dumb enough to do it though!

      Comment


      • #83
        Jesus, Northbeach, who peed in your cereal this morning? Let's not make things personal, please.

        Obviously you have issues with certain photographers you've used. Fine. Don't use them.

        However, I don't think your snide tone toward others on this thread who don't happen to agree with your experiences or interpretations is necessary.

        The Chronicle works with dozens of pro photographers. While some of them are a little, ahem, quirky, most are extremely accommodating and will bend over backwards to help get the photos that are needed. All for $25 a photo.

        And having spent time shooting next to Charlie, Susan, and Terri, WITH an expensive camera on my shoulder, I can tell you that you can have the right equipment and even be standing in the exact same spot, and you still may not get the quality of picture that the pros do. I'm STILL not able to time my trot and canter shots right, even after spending 4 years shooting on a regular basis.

        Shooting horse shows is exhausting. Dealing with horse people is generally a pain in the rear. I doubt the pros would be out there in the scorching sun or freezing rain shooting shows and selling their prints if they were getting rich off what you claim are unneccesary fees.

        Comment


        • #84
          Thank you, Erin...
          Good words, well said, and we appreciate the support.

          Susan Sexton

          Comment


          • #85
            Picking photos for ads

            One more thing, sort of a tangent - it always amazes me to see how many people run ads with bad photos of their stallions.

            I'm not talking even about the difference between an elite photo and an ordinary shot - but of stallions way behind the vertical and dragging their hind legs, of jumping horses hanging their knees, or of a horse with a tree shadow adorning his rump.

            Stallion owners - do yourself a favor and take the time or the money to get a good picture somehow. A bad picture will keep me from calling even more than no ad at all.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • #86
              Amen, Poultroon!

              Thank you, Erin, very much.

              Barb Young Photography
              www.RainbowFarm.com/photos.html
              Barb Young
              www.RainbowFarm.com
              www.BarbYoungPhotography.com
              equine photography in western CO USA

              Comment


              • #87
                Sorry Erin,

                I felt like I had brought up some legitimate points only to be told by Terri that I was ranting and that she was tired of my, quote "misinformation and your contentious attitude". If she doesn't agree with me, and if she is the professional that she says she is, you'd think she could respond in a better manner. Otherwise, despite her work, I'll just put it in the category with the rest of the ones who, as you say, are not so easy to deal with.

                Comment


                • #88
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Northbeach:
                  Sorry Erin,
                  I felt like I had brought up some legitimate points only to be told by Terri that I was ranting and that she was tired of my, quote "misinformation and your contentious attitude". If she doesn't agree with me, and if she is the professional that she says she is, you'd think she could respond in a better manner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  AMEN!!

                  It blew my mind that Terri Miller would be SO RUDE to you in PUBLIC (well, on a public BB). She is supposed to be a PROFESSIONAL - if she is going to have at YOU in public, how must she be on the phone, in private, when a customer has a complaint?

                  Just my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    And just to be clearer, I have nothing against Terri Miller. I've never met her, never seen her work, and never even heard of her.

                    I was just surprised that she, as a professional photographer who might want business from people who read this BB, would snipe so at Northbeach. If I were her, I would have held my tongue and let people think she was exceedingly patient, professional, and even-tempered.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Yeah, but if you read back, didn't she apologize for leaving that word "rant" in? She thought she had edited it out. Northbeach even acknowledged it.

                      Reminder: That is what is so difficult about email/bb's. There isn't any way to convey the emotional gist of one's statements. Statements that are meant to be said in a polite, non confortational manner are often mistook for being that way by the reader.

                      In Terri's defense, I felt that Northbeach kind of attacked her - although I know that Northbeach was just trying to broadly state that most professional photographers in general are prima donnas. And one must remember that if you have a complaint, it too has to be professionally put as well. (see what I mean about not being able to convey emotion? The gremlins help a little bit..)

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Northbeach:
                        Sorry Erin,

                        I felt like I had brought up some legitimate points only to be told by Terri that I was ranting and that she was tired of my, quote "misinformation and your contentious attitude". If she doesn't agree with me, and if she is the professional that she says she is, you'd think she could respond in a better manner. Otherwise, despite her work, I'll just put it in the category with the rest of the ones who, as you say, are not so easy to deal with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        I have been reading this thread with great interest myself as a photographer who seeks to know what customers want and desire in their photos. I don't often photograph English Events. I do know when someone is rude deceptive-misleading though.

                        Northbeach was treated with much more respect than deserved and more than she gave Terry. I don't know Terry either on a personal basis but I have over the last year learned that she is one of the top photographers and artist in the English field. I think considering that so many things were thrown out to present Northbeach's case that weren't exactly fact and mostly something someone else said or told her about. She never really presented her actual complaint but argued as if every photographer was doing something to her personally. Terry was very much a professional, as any reasonable person would testify. She took the time to look up the information that was presented and shared it with us all.

                        I am still looking for some of those great photos taken with the rented high dollar Pro Camera that so many people wanted to purchase. I can sell everything I take if I am willing to give it away; you can't make a living as a photographer that way. There is always room for a great photographer Northbeach why don't you join us by at least letting us see some of the work you have done? Is it possible that it is like the Cigar story too, or the web and print design folks getting photos that they can use for ever for a fee bucks. I don't want to be unfair but I would like to see your photos to judge better that you know what you are talking about.

                        If we are looking for honesty and trying to deal with the facts, then I think Terry presented not only in a way that I am proud to be of the same profession but she did it very gracefully. If I remember correctly she did apologize for her slip. "Sorry, thought I'd edited that phrase out! Terri Miller"

                        I never mind a dissatisfied customer if they have a reason, that will let us all know what we need to do. Someone who doesn't respect me will get my respect enough to hear their problem, I will hear them out. When continuing to skirt what they are really saying by complaining using at the very best using only half-truths and hearsay just to keep an unspoken complaint hidden, I don't need their business, nor do I want it.

                        There is much more that goes into our prices than has been spoken about here. I appreciate all the comments made. Photography is one of the most expensive professions considering the time spent to learn, cost of equipment and cost of producing the image. Someone who can see the moment and has enough timing skills to capture it usually makes a great photograph. A person makes them with a vision, not just great a camera, I don't care how expensive. It is the person behind it that makes the choices. Some people have the technical talent some have visual talent. Every now and then someone has both. Terry thank you for your beautiful work, it speaks highly of you. Your response was elegant, to the point and truthfully spoken with grace.

                        Thanks,
                        Charles Hilton

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          This has been a very educational thread.

                          I personally feel that all the professional photographers who have posted have been very...well, professional.

                          I have never bought a professional shot of my horse, mostly because the times I did get proofs I could not afford it, and the more recent shows I've gone to, have not gotten any shots of my horse, although I would likely have bought them as I could probably afford a smaller one or two now....I did buy a video the one time it was offered.

                          One thing that my years of saddle fitting taught me is that there are a lot of horse people out there who want the people who provide the goods and services they use for their horses to earn less than minimum wage. They'd like their horse hobby subsidized at the expense of the people attempting to make a living in the industry.

                          We see this across the board....vet expenses, farrier, trainers, equine photographers and the list goes on. I used to be among the complainers, until I actually tried running my own business....I was only doing it part time and
                          did the math after the 3rd year and realized that I was not making enough money to be worth my time dealing with the problems. People like to pretend that the only expenses they should pay for are the ones that they see or would spend if they did it on their own. People tend to ignore the value of their time, because when they do something (like take their own pictures) it is for fun, in their spare time. What they like to ignore are the costs of travel, housing, vehicle maintenance, property maintenance, time, insurance, etc.

                          Just because I can't always afford to buy a product does not mean that the product is priced unfairly. And, the professional who does not charge what they are worth, to make a living needs to get an accountant to help them out. Many people start in on some "hobby turned professions" when they are subsidized by mom & dad or a spouse with an income, or even a trust fund. In my case, yes, I was subsidizing my own business with my own salary from another job, but I valued my time too highly to want to be the cheapest out there. In the end, I determined that it was not the field for me. I have to earn my keep and pay for my ponies and there are more lucrative ways to spend my time.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Wow! More nasty photographers!

                            I am a graphic designer and so are several members of my family. I stated examples of what has happened repeatedly to me as well as to members of my family as well as other graphic designers that I have talked to - not just "stuff I have heard" as one poster put it.

                            Yes, Terri apologized for the rant thing, but then jumped on me going on to say I was "spreading misinformation and was tired of my contentious attitude" BEFORE I ever said anything to her personally. Matter of fact, I said I was NOT referring to her, she just took it upon herself to speak for ALL photographers apparently.

                            As far as the Cigar thing, why don't you point to a url showing where I AM WRONG? There was one poster, in her esteemed legal opinion, thought I was wrong, I've pointed to a url that supports what I have said - it even had other cases cited where someone taking a pic of a CAR and selling it without permission was sued.

                            My photos have been used in multiple things - brochures, stallion fliers, etc. I am not a professional photographer and do not have my "work" posted on a website for people as nasty as you to look at.

                            Apparently some of you photographers feel threatened about someone going out and renting professional equipment and taking their own photos. Get over it. I have a right to think that a $350 per year LEASE of a photo of my horse for a website design that may only cost $500 total to design is a rip-off. If I put more than one photo on the website, the photos would be more than the whole site!!! Get real.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Hey, if you think that you can take a decent photo, and if renting professional equipment helps you take an even better one, than by all means go for it!! I say, more power to you!! I have actually loaned out my equipment to trusted friends so that they could try it. Threatened? Not in the least. I wish more people would take your advice, and actually try it themselves!

                              Maybe they would discover a new talent or hobby, or an outlet for their anger, frustration and creativity... or maybe they will discover why others do it professionally, or at the very least gain an understanding why the professionals charge what they do.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Yet another tangential point, while I have the attention of all you pros - some of my most favorite pictures are "nontraditional" shots - preparing to go into the ring, galloping between fences, a dynamic landing shot.

                                I love Gary Benson's book "In The Irons" - beautiful photographs, and I love the way they're so varied - not just the perfect jumping or extended trot shot.
                                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  In Terri's defense, I felt that Northbeach kind of attacked her - although I know that Northbeach was just trying to broadly state that most professional photographers in general are prima donnas.

                                  I understand the difficulties in trying to discuss something with emotion in a forum like this as well. I am not sure if Northbeach meant to say that all professional photographers are as you think. " although I know that Northbeach was just trying to broadly state that most professional photographers in general are prima donnas". If that is the case then I would like her to carry my equipment and follow me during a days work then do all else that is involved in producing a photo that someone would call great.

                                  I admit that some photographers, like some horse people have a chip on their shoulder but after a full day at a show or ranch shooting all day, my feet are tired, sometimes my head aches and I down right smell bad because of the squatting stooping sitting in the manure doing all the things we do to get those shots. Think of myself as being a prima donna, NOPE, I don't think so and neither do those whom I work for.

                                  I wouldn't have even entered the discussion had Northbeach and several others even been fair in their assessment of professional photography in general of in specific instances. She was grossly unfair to the position that Terri was taking. Her mind was made up to the point she went way beyond fairness. I was being fair to her by not quoting some of what she said. Read the post with both eyes open and you will more than agree. This is a great topic and could bridge the gap for photographers and clients provided honesty is kept at the center of it all. I have and am learning a lot myself from it all.

                                  I have been in the photo business myself for over 25 years and I still want to produce the best that I can for my clients. That includes learning all that I can about them, their needs and desires even if it involves my pricing. Most of the photographers I know have done all they can to please client's even to return payment for questionably bad work done. For me that means in the eyes of the beholder as it does for others I know. We simply provide a service that some want and are willing to pay enough for us to make it. I don't live in a mansion on a hilltop and I don't wear glass slippers either, I earn and work hard for what I get in return. I think most professional equine photographers do to. We don't work in an air-conditioned studio; it is in the elements. If there are some who do have a difficult attitude, or require such high prices that most can't afford, they have probably earned it in the dirt like most of us.

                                  I would like to end with this. I love the work I do and hope to be doing it as long as I can walk. There are many great photographers out there and some are still in the making, or are amateurs. Some will choose not to make a go because it cost us a lot to do this. Sometimes it would be easier to work in an office and go out riding our horses like the many amateur horse people do. It cost a lot to be a professional horseman too, we all pay the price to be where we are. When the value placed on some of the horses we photograph is where they are, along with breeding and keeping them, I respect the effort and the cost it takes to have them. Most horse owners, amateur or professional know their investment. I have never questioned the stud fee on a stallion even if I think it is too high, may-be the price of a horse but I wouldn't ever place horse owner with any kind of label much less one that is to demean them as a group. If you think someone is to high or difficult to work with, find someone else like you would if you couldn't afford the horse you wanted or couldn't deal with the person selling it. There are others who will treat you right, as I know Terri does.

                                  Keep communicating with us when you get the chance, you will find most of us willing to talk about making it a better world for the horse owners as we as photographers, a lot of us own our own horses as well.

                                  Thank you for your time and listening, it is encouraging all of us.

                                  Charles Hilton

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Having come to my senses and realized that nothing I say is going to change either side of things, I am removing my thoughts on the subject.

                                    [This message was edited by MrsMouse on Jan. 03, 2003 at 08:24 PM.]
                                    *****************************************

                                    Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      I've been following this thread with some interest. I am also a graphic designer and I have to say a few points, if you don't mind.

                                      First, I don't think Northbeach was attacking Terri. Matter of fact, his/her posts were addressed to Poltroon but Terri kept answering and Terri is the one who started with the "rant" and "misinformation, etc".

                                      Second, Northbeach also said that there were many photographers who were upfront and easy to deal with - she never blanketed all of them together.

                                      Third, regarding the bad experiences that Northbeach mentioned, a few hit home with me too. I have had several similar experiences. As a graphic designer, I have had the "pleasure" of dealing with some pretty horrific attitudes and "sudden" changes in conditions. I do not deal with them and make it plain to other graphic designers my bad experiences with them.

                                      Northbeach is on the mark with many things stated, not the least is the necessity of getting permission for anything photographed, painted, etc that is not considered editorial. Meaning, if we are using any object - person, horse, car, building, etc. in anything that will be sold or used to sell anything for the sake of making money, you should get permission and pay compensation if necessary.

                                      To me as a 18 year veteran in design work, Northbeach knows what he/she is talking about. I am also not surprized at the rancid responses to his/her posts.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Wow -- what an interesting and educational discussion. Some of the finest equine photographers in the country are giving us the benefit of their many years of experience and signing with their REAL NAMES. The only fly in the ointment seems to be NORTHBEACH. He/she attacks the integrity of some of the finest without taking the risk of identifying who she/he is. It is pretty obvious where the credibility of this discussion lies.

                                        Comment


                                        • A SNIP on misinformation being proliferated by Northbeach:

                                          SNIP "Apparently some of you photographers feel threatened about someone going out and renting professional equipment and taking their own photos. Get over it. I have a right to think that a $350 per year LEASE of a photo of my horse for a website design that may only cost $500 total to design is a rip-off. If I put more than one photo on the website, the photos would be more than the whole site!!! Get real"

                                          No the real photographers do not feel threatened by the likes of you. In fact we don't want your business given your bitter view of our field as much as you do not want our services which is perfectly fine, not all things are for all people. But I think perhaps the bitterness detected might be coming from the fact that you ONLY charge $500 for your website design and you resent anyone who gets anything close to that for the use of a quality image to promote a business, build an image, market a product to its BEST ADVANTAGE and you have a hard time accepting that the photography has more value expressed in $ than does your design when viewed proportionately by size/time/scope. Well who set your web design pricing? I am sure you know how much value your service really has and have priced it accordingly..... Perhaps it's that old artist envy thing....Such a sad existence that must be.... or maybe that's not it at all, but it sure seems like there are some very sour grapes in your mouth based on patent untruths about the photography industry and a lot of misconceptions, lack of knowledge and understanding plus a general bent to slam the photography industry as a whole.

                                          BTW, you also have the $350 fee definition all wrong. If you had really been reading & understanding what was posted, you would have seen this:

                                          "According to my price list, $350.00 is the cost of leasing the rights for stallion and/or farm promotion on web, magazine (up to 50,000 circulation) and brochure use for two years."

                                          Terri's explanation of her licensing includes that the image may be used for web, magazine and brochure use for 2 years. Now, that is quite a bit different than $350 for one photo for one web placement. Let's see, $350 for 3 different items over the course of 2 years. That comes out to about $60 per web use per year, $60 magazine use per year given that you only run one ad per year, $60 per brochure use per year all for the benefit of having a COMPELLING image that brings you business. That use fee covered 2 years so it could include up to 24 ads in just one monthly magazine at ~ $2000 a pop/page. If you placed ads only 6 months each year in one magazine rather than just one month/yr, the effective cost per use is now down to: drum roll please ~ ~ $22 per use. Wow, isn't that a terribly high price to pay for increasing your market appeal, increasing your business revenue & income? What does that equate to? About 1% of the full page ad fee you'll pay in the good equine mags.
                                          What if you advertise every month for 2 years in just one monthly magazine, 24 times, do a web image 1 per year and a brochure 1 per year? Can you believe it's still $12.50 per use? So expensive to use the good stuff, isn't it though? Now what if we figure out how much per brochure in this last scenario: assuming you printed 500 brochures for use over 2 years, the image licensing equates to 2.5 cents per brochure. Such a burdensome fee, this 2.5 cents.... Assuming your website got 500 additional hits per year because people were attracted to the great image there, and that IS what will attract the attention, that licensing will cost you all of 2.5 cents per hit. Too expensive? I don't think so if it helps you get more business and beautiful imagery does help sell as others have stated.

                                          But apparently you have never figured out how to do the math nor have you realized what people really want in their equine ads not to mention that you can't seem to read all of what's written but instead want to go off huffing and puffing about how terrible photographers are to do a good job and then use their right under Federal & International law (not to mention their commonsense) to make a living by their work. If you did the math and understood the value of a good image and really read what others wrote, you wouldn't be screaming over perfectly reasonable, fair & customary fees for a valuable service: the use of a distinctive attractive custom image that will enhance your business activity.

                                          Isn't this how you sell your design clients? That a great design will help sell their product or service? If not, what advantage do you offer them? What's the difference here? Except for the fact that the consumer is more attracted to the photograph than to the design at least conciously. How about if the photographers all encourage our clients to build their own websites because it's so easy with Front Page and they don't have to pay people like you to design & put up websites and then later charge to maintain them... shouldn't you do that for free? They just make the one time investment in the program and no more designer fees ....

                                          But you know what? The best of us would not encourage our clients to do any such thing. And do you know why not? Because we respect our clients and consider ourselves partners with them in the effort to make the best possible promotional campaign for their business. We recognize that it takes talent, skill and experience to build a good design or web site just as it does to make a good image. We want them to be successful and we want our images to help them achieve that success in business. We want them to use the best designer possible and get a great design to go with our great image. It's a mutual benefit arrangement with win-win-win as the goal.

                                          I find it extremely appalling that you, someone in the creative industry, would have such a nasty, narrow minded attitude about another creative! You've made your own miserable little world filled with meanness, envy, anger, mistrust - you can change that or not but you don't need to dump it on people who have done nothing to you personally.

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