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Professional pictures and fees for use

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  • #21
    Susan or Terri, I don't suppose either of you need a trainee/sidekick/disciple/someone to carry all your camera paraphernalia, do you? I'm available if so! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


    • #22
      Woo hoo! Mrs Mouse, fellow amatuer photographer or just wanting to learn?

      If it's the former, do you have any pics I could see?


      "Is that YOUR funky tune?"-Raymond T.
      -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes


      • #23
        FJ - both! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
        Okay, you asked for it - now I'm going to flood this thread with my pix! LOL
        This is one of my favorite horsey pictures - China, an Arabian mare, in Texas.
        Attached Files

        Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


        • #24
          ZZ Fauze, beast mare from hell. But no denying she's gorgeous! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
          Attached Files

          Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


          • #25
            Okay, this is a non-horsey one, but I have to post it because it's my all time favorite picture. Hand tinted black and white of two of my precious nephews, James and Calvin.
            Attached Files

            Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


            • #26
              Mouse Prints Photography..lol I like that!

              Nice one of the grey, and I love that one of your nephews! I'm a big fan of black and white....here's one of one of our horses, Dance Affair, winning at Pimlico...I already posted it on the racing forum but I'm posting it again [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] You and I should start a photography shop..lol....but seeing as I'm into Fjords and you have the Mouse thing, I think you'll need to come up with something better than, "Squashed Mouse Photography"....heheh, kidding.. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]


              "Is that YOUR funky tune?"-Raymond T.
              Attached Files
              -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes


              • #27
                Most of the show photogs require you to have purchased at least one 5x7 of the photo to be displayed in COTH's Horse Show issue where all the regional winners are posted. At least one requires an 8x10.

                $30 for the 5x7 may seem high but they are out there shooting all day and fewer then 10% buy anything. I already mentioned that those photos I buy are absolutely perfect. Take your own if you like but if you publish one taken by another you gotta pay for it.

                The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                • #28
                  Squashed Mouse Photography? LOL!!
                  I liked your photo - very sharp and does a great job of capturing the action. Got any more you want to share? What equipment do you use?
                  Most of my shots are sans people - I do a lot of portraits of horses, whether stills or actions.
                  Too bad we're several states away from each other - I'd love to go into a partnership with you! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Let me know if you plan on relocating to SW Virginia. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                  Here's another of mine...
                  Attached Files

                  Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


                  • #29
                    Meant to add - that picture is actually sharper than it appears there. Combination of crummy scanner and low quality photo software, both problems which are now fixed.
                    It was also low light and I was shooting without a flash, so I was happy enough with the result. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
                    Attached Files

                    Book: If you take advantage of her, you\'re going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater. Firefly


                    • #30
                      Actually, you can post your availability as an assistant or intern for equine photography at www.equinephotographers.net, see the "Job Board". And yes, I'm sure you were kind of kidding, but maybe someone else would like to investigate that.

                      Being both a breeder and an equine photographer has been pretty interesting, when, for instance, I have a filly entered in DAD and I can't get there. Fortunately, I was able to email Terri and Susan with the filly's information and got awesome proofs of her. Otherwise there is no way I would have had photos of Wicked Z's (American Sport Pony) first DAD. For me a great service at any price.

                      Barb Young
                      founding member: www.EquinePhotographers.net
                      and www.RainbowFarm.com

                      Barb Young
                      Premium Oldenburgs and
                      Sport Ponies
                      Barb Young
                      equine photography in western CO USA


                      • #31
                        Susan, Terri and others have addressed the pricing and usage issues quite well, so I'd like to address the issue of the fee to take the photos.

                        The last show I shot, I was responsible for shooting up to four rings at a time. I do try to shoot as many people as possible, but there is no way to guarantee that I get to everyone. I don't hire assistant photographers yet, so I do provide a "sign-up" service that basically reserves me to shoot your horses.

                        The nominal ($20 in my case) fee guarantees that your horse will get photographed; whereas if you do not sign up, there is no guarantee that I will be at the ring your horse is in at the right time. I have someone at my booth with a radio, and they call me to let me know I have to be at ring #X for <horse name> at XX time.

                        I know some photographers (trying to cover costs) shoot only on sign-up. This way they are guaranteed to cover some of their costs. I prefer to shoot on spec with the "sign-up" feature.

                        I think the usage issue has been covered adequately, so I won't go into that. I did want to throw in my thought that $30 for a 3x5 seems very steep.

                        Jeremy Handel
                        Handel Photography


                        • #32
                          I've read this thread with interest to say the least. As a former stallion owner I have had the opportunitiy to use professional photography services that included licensing fees for advertising. So when I read your lengthy statement about all the costs involved in making these photographs, as well as your opinion on how easy it is for your customer to make up these costs by just getting one breeding through an ad, I just have even things out a bit.

                          Yes, as a photographer you have business expenses - I don't think anybody would deny that. However, as a stallion owner we also have business expenses. So saying that one breeding will pay for the cost of your photography license is shortsighted at best. Aren't you forgetting the cost of the ad, ad placement, cost of photo shoot, cost of individual prints as well as the licensing fee?

                          I do foresee problems for professional photography with the advent of digital cameras. As much as the photographer still needs to be talented to get the good shots, it will be hard to use the picture size argument when charging for prints. I currently use a company in Minnesota for large size prints of my digital pictures and the charges are $3.00 for 8x10's and up to $8.00 for poster size.

                          As an aside, when a 3 x 5 digital photo is already fuzzy around the edges, there really won't be anything you can do to turn it into a quality image. It's one thing to start losing sharpness at poster size, but certainly not at 3 x 5.

                          I don't mind paying for talent, as a matter of fact I've often admired photographers for being able to come up with these incredible images over and over again. I do mind paying for lots of average to sub-standard pictures simply because they were taken by a "professional". That's when it gets expensive very quickly.....
                          Siegi Belz
                          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


                          • #33
                            Just thought I'd add my 2 cents to this discussion. Everyone has made some excellent points regarding the cost of show photography. I am a show photographer and have seen first-hand the expenses involved--it's tough to make a living in this business--and I don't yet! I sometimes cringe myself at the prices I need to charge to make even a small profit, but at the same time I think about the fact that I don't have even one nice photo of myself as a teenager showing my horses, and today, I'd give quite a bit of money to have that! My parents weren't capable of getting the good photos, and I didn't show at large enough shows where a photographer was available. So I've decided to try and fill that gap, and I photograph some of the smaller shows. But, although I love the idea of giving people the visual memories that I don't have, I really can't do it for free or just to cover expenses. I need to make a decent profit in order for it to be worth my time.

                            During the past couple of months, I've been searching for a new horse for myself, and it all of a sudden occurred to me that I don't even pay attention to ads that have no photo or ads that have only mediocre photos. The only ads that I am seriously looking at show excellent photos that really grab my attention. This experience has truly shown me how very important and valuable a good photo is if you need to sell a horse or a stallion's services. There are ALOT of horses for sale, and quite a few stallion's available at stud. There is no way I could research all of the horses I see advertised. IT IS THE PHOTO WHICH NARROWS MY SEARCH DOWN! These are the ONLY sellers I am contacting! I also remember that when I was looking for a stallion's services several years ago, once again, I paid no attention to ads which showed a less than stellar photo. I contacted only those breeders who had top quality photos in their ads. From there I would get a video or visit the stallion.

                            Just some food for thought....


                            • #34
                              Without seeing the "fuzzy" image it is impossible to tell if it is actually out of focus or just a product of the medium you are viewing it on.

                              The file size they are printed from, amount of compression, type of paper they are printed on, quality of moniter they are viewed on all play into to what the image looks like.

                              If you see an image you like and are concerned about the quality of the proof, ask the photographer. I have people e-mail and call me all the time. I am more than happy to discuss the image(s) with them.

                              I shoot a few smaller shows and have quite a few parents who don't know what they are looking for call and ask my opinion. It is my name and reputation attached to that image. I want people to be be satisfied. I still shoot film for my shows where the final product is a print. I shoot digital daily for the paper and do some of my stock work in it.

                              As for the rise in popularity of digital cameras making it easier for people to take their own ad photos, I disagree. Just because you have a digital camera does not make you a better photographer. You also need a camera that makes a large enough file for reproduction(though there is software to increase the image size), the timing to capture the moment, the eye for a clean background, etc. At least shooting film you are starting with the same amount of information.

                              The cost of a professional digital camera body, one with no exposure delay, a big enough buffer to shoot images sequential images and makes a usable file size is beyond the wallet of most amature photogrpahers. This does not include lens, cards, computers, insurance, repairs, cleaning, etc. that goes into being a professional. And we all carry more than one body, and have the back up incase on failure.

                              Sorry if this comes across grouchy, it's the end of the year and I am beginning to do my accounts.


                              "I'll use CAPITALS, lowercase or sanscrit until the font police come and get me," Josh Lyman, The West Wing


                              • #35

                                [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] I wonder if this Jack Greene person knows he has bizarre subjects.


                                • #36
                                  I totally understand that photographers are charging extra for the use of their photos in ads. I know how much equipment there is to buy, how much travel and expertise gets 'eaten', how people use your images when they haven't paid for them. And, I understand how much value a good image adds.

                                  However, what irritated me was when photographers started charging extra for use on the web. Now, I'm not talking commercial use - I just wanted to put one of these images on my personal website, to share with my family and friends. Nope, I was going to have to pay a substantial additional fee - because it was the web. And, I learned of this when I received the image - not when I signed up for photos.

                                  Perhaps permission to use an image for non-commercial web applications could be granted with the purchase of a certain size print. I don't know. But it just left a bad taste in my mouth and made me unhappy about the whole transaction, even though I did buy the picture and I do like it.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


                                  • #37
                                    I am a sucker for photos of my horse. I end up buying tons of the 4x6s in the albums just because I like to have them (not for advertising, etc.) I must admit it kills me that if I don't buy them they just get trashed. I miss the photographers that sent proofs and I think it was good business as well. I have often ordered proofs many months, even years later -- none of that now or never pressure. And many times at A shows I will leave before the show is over and never even get to see some of the pics taken. Anyway, I'm rambling but I wanted to mention how one photographer did it at a NC show that I really liked. You signed up and paid $30 and let her know what you were riding in. She guaranteed at least 3 pics. I ended up getting 6 of my horse (5 jumping, one trotting in) all nice. 6 pictures for the $30 seemed like a great deal and I knew I was getting pics! I'm always terribly disappointed when I go to look and there aren't any of my horse. Seemed like a good way to do it but perhaps logistically difficult.


                                    • #38
                                      TM - you took only part of my sentence. The first part said - "Buy the rights to the photos". In no way did I suggest it was a good idea to "rip off" photographers. As you now send your proofs on plain paper - I am sure that will cut down on the "theft". I have always paid you for multiple copies of one photo. Every year I consider buying the rights to the best photo. It is a huge expense for my small farm. The cost of using one photo is more than the total cost of showing two youngsters for a day at DAD.

                                      Susan -
                                      on my order sheet there is a section about cropping and enlargements. It states that "When the lab enlarges a picture for you, everything gets enlarged, all the good stuff, and all the bad. For instance, if your proofs look a little out of focus, the enlargements will look a lot out of focus. If the proof is sharp, the enlargement will lose some of the sharpness, but just a little". It does mention that judicious cropping can help.

                                      As there was no mention of how to deal with (camera "artifact" ?) in the letter - I took it to mean this would become worse with an enlargement. The "captured moments" of my mare are great. The yearly rights fee was more than expected.

                                      In general I agree with Siegi. Photographers have expenses, yet so do people in the breeding business (too numerous to list).


                                      • #39
                                        >However, what irritated me was when photographers started charging extra for use on the web. Now, I'm not talking commercial use - I just wanted to put one of these images on my personal website, to share with my family and friends. Nope, I was going to have to pay a substantial additional fee - because it was the web. >

                                        Think about this: back in the days B.I. (Before Internet) if you wanted to share professional photos with your friends and family, you purchased extra prints and mailed them. Now it's more timely to post them to your personal web page, and you can share them with oodles more people than you would have ever been able to five years ago. But here's the rub from the photographer's point of view: you didn't buy any extra prints.This leaves the photographer with a dilemma: charge the individual who would like to use the photo on a personal web page to make up for the lost revenue? Or charge every customer more for each print to make up for the percentage of customers who wish to post pictures to their friends?

                                        When clients sign up for photos with me, they must sign a contract that spells out the minimum number of images they'll receive from me, and also explains that they may not copy these images without permission and payment of applicable fees, so everything is up front before we do business. I always make my enlargement price list and my copyright lease fee price list available at my stand at shows, so the only reason a client will be surprised when they receive this information with their proof sheets is if they didn't take a moment to review it beforehand.

                                        If you know that the purpose of your photos will be commercial, let the photographer know ahead of time: ask for a copy of their rates and services; let them know what sort of photo you are after. Remember that we start shooting when the show starts, and finish up when the classes do, so please don't be upset if we're not at our stand at 10:30 in the morning.

                                        Technology continues to change the face of how we do business. The way we photographers charge for what we do is evolving all the time. The advent of digital cameras that could keep up with my type of shooting, and which could provide an image that was up to the standards that I adhere to in my work, has completely changed my workflow. As new ways to present these photos to my clients continue to appear, I'm sure that my business model will continue to evolve as well!

                                        I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to post on this topic. It's important to photographers to hear feedback on the photos that we take and the services that we provide. While there are some things that we photographers can't change (our cost of doing business, for example, or the existance of mud at Devon), we **do** want to know how we can make our customers happy!

                                        Here's wishing a happy and healthy New Year to all!

                                        Terri Miller
                                        Photos & Commissioned Paintings


                                        • #40
                                          >>TM - you took only part of my sentence. The first part said - "Buy the rights to the photos". In no way did I suggest it was a good idea to "rip off" photographers. As you now send your proofs on plain paper - I am sure that will cut down on the "theft".>>


                                          Maybe I did quote you out of context. But unfortunately, this was the sort of quote that I see all too often lately, and I felt compelled to respond to the "letter" of it at perhaps the expense of the "spirit" of it.

                                          BTW, the paper that I send my proofs out on is archivally rated to resist fading for the next 20 years, and is more durable than most other ink-jet papers for proofing purpose. It may have a matte finish, but it's anything but "plain"!

                                          Terri Miller
                                          Photos & Commissioned Paintings