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Professional pictures and fees for use

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  • #181
    Elizabeth, I'm sorry. It was Heather. This thread! Arrghhhhhh!

    No, I will absolutely NOT name the photographer! Do you think I'm insane?

    Comment

    • #182
      elizabeth. . . heather. . . . it's all the same.

      Though I have always wanted to be a "Jacqueline." My life would be more glamorous if I were a Jacqueline, I think.

      Perhaps you could call me that. . . .

      Comment

      • #183
        How do you end a conversation in which each participant has to have the last word?
        Having spent a large part of this evening going through this thread I have come to the conclusion that not being able to see the wood for the trees may be endemic for creative personalities.

        First of all for the photographers:

        The content of this thread tells me that a significant part of your prospective customer base increasingly finds your current pricing and licensing policies unacceptable. This leaves you vulnerable to new competitors who are willing to adapt to these alienated clients requirements. Technology continues to alter the equation as well, allowing less experienced people to produce "good enough" results. I am reminded by your arguments of those software developers who earnestly told me that nobody would buy Microsoft software because of its very obvious technical deficiencies.

        Designers shouldn't be complacent either. Technology, having created your job, can take it away as well. If your clients could do without your services they would. Sniping at photographers has no relevance to the situation.

        It's the client's end goal that counts. Placing unnecessary frustrations in their way is hardly the way to grow your business.

        A large part of my career has been spent dealing with intellectual property and licensing issues in software development and marketing. I have fifteen years experience in electronic mail. That doesn't matter. The default price of e-mail is still "free".
        ------------------------------------------------------------
        But all the finest horsemen out—the men to Beat the Band—
        You’ll find amongst the crowd that ride their races in the Stand

        Comment

        • #184
          Gosh you make some good points. I do think that the trend is going towards not having to pay ongoing fees.

          I have a friend who is getting married. She is looking at wedding photographers. She will absolutely NOT consider anyone who does not include the negatives with the package price. So it seems like wedding photographers have gone that way too - work for hire instead of the copyright thing. You can check out how the wed. photographers are doing it if you want - I'd think that would be similar to doing a "farm call". Here are some links:

          www.prismweddings.com/site/index.html
          www.netostudio.com

          (see it is more than one!!) he he! No, really there are a bunch!! Most in fact and you can use them any way you want.

          Comment

          • #185
            Seeing as I am an amatuer and new to the world of photography, I could be very wrong when I say..

            It seems as though asking for the negatives is very much out of line. Doesn't that sort of take away from the art of photography? For myself, I wouldn't dream of giving away any negatives. That's just plain giving away the photo, like loosing credit for your talent.

            If anyone ever asked for my negs, I would give a definite "NO" and think the person who asked would have to be the most inconsiderate kind of customer.

            *J*

            "Is that YOUR funky tune?"-Raymond T.
            -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

            Comment

            • #186
              It isn't a matter of asking for the negatives so it isn't out of line.

              If you took a look at the two sites I listed, you'd see that it is part of their package deal. They, the photographers, are offering it - you don't ask. It says it right there on their website in the pricing/package page. So, no, it isn't out of line, they are using it as a "selling point" so obviously it is something that the market WANTS and the photographers are happy to provide it. More and more people are coming to think this way and the market is driving it. Something for photographers who don't to think about.

              Comment

              • #187
                Oh okay...lol.

                I've sort of gotten lost in this thread, so only skim instead of reading each detail.

                That makes a heck of a lot more sense...

                *J*

                "Is that YOUR funky tune?"-Raymond T.
                -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

                Comment

                • #188
                  Not to say that I disagree with what many of the wonderful photographers have posted here re pricing and the enormous cost of (good) photography.

                  I think that if you hire someone for a private shoot and buy the negatives outright it gets factored into the price and may not save you any money with a really top photographer. For someone who owns lot of babies for sale, getting a local photog out to take pics and paying outright for the shoot/negs is probably well worth it. Only thing is that if you're not thrilled with the photos, you still have to pay for them which you don't if you go the proofs/pay per use system.

                  Comment

                  • #189
                    OK, I've been pretty quiet on this thread, but I just wanted to chime in on the wedding photog portion. A couple things with wedding photogs:

                    1. Other than a couple of portfolio shots, wedding pics don't really carry future value for the photographers. There is an outside chance of getting some stock value from them, but only with the couple's permission.

                    2. When wedding photogs include the negatives in their package, it most times is after a certain period of time, when they feel they are not going to get any more reprint orders from the family & friends. If you were to call the people you offered as examples, I would say that most likely the negs were included after 3 or 6 months time.

                    Now, when it comes to a stallion shoot, as long as I have permission of the owners of the horses, those pictures can have value for me long into the future with any number of stock clients (supplement companies, feed companies, tack companies, etc.).

                    Before you all go nuts about this, let me just say that I never allow a third party to use my photos unless I already have a signed agreement with the client or I contact the client and get a signed agreement. So, no, I am not screwing the client behind their back.

                    Just my two cents on this issue.

                    Jeremy Handel
                    Handel Photography

                    Comment

                    • #190
                      Again, if you actually look at the websites I posted, you would see that the negatives are available immediately (or at least after they process them or whatever) not 6 months or anything.

                      It is work for hire and I don't see where if you go on a farm shoot, have all of your expenses paid for that you should then screw the owners by not only NOT giving them the rights to THEIR HORSES AT THEIR HOME/FARM but then you have the audacity to go out and sell them to 3rd parties - these are often times pics of the OWNER'S HOME for crying out loud! I'd have a real problem with you selling them to someone else!!!!

                      Comment

                      • #191
                        One other thing, wedding photos do carry just as much value in their market as horse pics in the horse market - actually, there are probably more wedding magazines, websites on weddings, more wedding paraphanalia, wedding clothes (shoes, bridesmaid dresses, tux rentals, wedding dresses, gloves, hats, veils, stockings,etc), limo service, florists, caterers, facility rentals, not to mention photographers, videographers, invitations, thank you notes, wedding cakes, candles & candlabras, chairs, tables, champaign. Then you have rehersal dinners, bridal showers, don't forget bachelor & bacheloret parties, on and on and on - more people, more things, bigger market - wedding photos for "stock" would have a much bigger marketability than a stallion pic.

                        I'm really starting to agree with some of the others - you equine photographers have kind of an inflated view of yourselves.

                        Comment

                        • #192
                          susanb,

                          No where does it say the negs are yours immediately. It also does not say that you have to wait. They only say the negs are yours. And based on the prices listed there for the number of photos you get, you are paying ALOT for those negs.

                          Maybe that is normal in your area, but in mine, they negs were NOT part of the package and the package listed x number of x size in the price, which I must say the best packages did not go over 5k, the majority around 3k.

                          I am not a photographer, however, I would think that since there are a signigicant larger number of wedding photographers than there are equine photographers, the ability to use your wedding shoots as stock would drop dramatically. One would have to do ALOT of work sending out images to get the attention of the large number of wedding related stores, etc, the majority of which are local, not a national chain.

                          just my 2 cents in why they would do business differently

                          Repeat after me: I will not feed the trolls, I will not feed the trolls.....

                          Comment

                          • #193
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is work for hire ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            A wedding is a personal event.

                            A farm shoot for a breeding business is a commercial thing. Businesses generally WANT all the exposure they can get.

                            Look how much dough these wedding guys charge upfront! $1695 for 200-300 color photographs? Gimme a break and they have no enlarging costs, no shipping costs, they don't have to send out proofs, its one day of work and they are paid up front.

                            How many brides and grooms look like models? Face facts, alot of these people probably are pretty ordinary looking. Who wants to buy a stock photo of a 200lb bride?

                            You guys need to wake up and realize these things are not comparable at all.

                            Comment

                            • #194
                              I just don't agree!

                              $1695 divided by 300 shots is $5.65 each - a lot cheaper than what the equine photgraphers are charging.

                              The pictures are MY PICTURES THAT I PAY FOR. People say, my child's school pictures, my child's soccer pictures, they DON'T SAY "Mr. Joe Photographer's picture of my child" Mr. Joe Photographer was PAID for his time and expense. Just because the photographer thinks he/she can profit in the future off my dime, does that mean that they are entitled too? NO.

                              200lb bride? What about all the young horses with a terrible case of the uglies but you still need a photo for your sales info. And quite often, it is not about prettiness with weddings - it is about their social standing. Whether it is in small towns or large ones but all over America & beyond, when well known, rich, or infamous people get married, there is interest.

                              Call up the photographers yourself and ask when the negs would be available. They will tell you as soon as they are processed.

                              Also, not all breeding farms are commercial interests. Just because one breeds a couple of babies and sells one or two doesn't mean one is even set up as a business. Besides, the photographers here have made it quite clear that it doesn't matter if the photo is put on a web site just to show off the horse(s) to friends or if it is to sell stock, the price is still the same - high with ongoing royalties.

                              I don't know how long ago the poster was married who said that photographers in her area didn't do this. From what I'm being told, offering negatives is the way the market is going so more and more are turning to it as the market drives it...and it will continue.

                              One last thing, if you've ever hired someone good to come out to your farm to do a farm shoot, then $1695 would be pretty cheap once you have paid their plane, put them up, and paid the rest of the expenses. But I would make sure that I had control of MY PICTURES. Contrast that to Terri's $350 for only 2 years use of, let's say, 6 photos = $2100.00 not including expenses! Ouch! and NO WAY!

                              Comment

                              • #195
                                A wedding is a social event - much like a horse show or any sporting event. Weddings are also a legal event not to mention the religous implications - you stand up in front of your community and God and "declare" to love one another till death do you part - that is an requirement to be married in the eyes of God. So in no way could it ever be considered a "private" or personal event.

                                It is the photogs that need to wake up - this is the direction in which your market is headed. The good ones who go with it will be the ones in demand.

                                Comment

                                • #196
                                  I'd want negatives if possible - not to screw the photographer or make enlargements behind his/her back - but because I don't want them tossed in a garbage pail 3 years (or so) after they're taken.

                                  If the photographer retires, goes out of business, dies, or just plain flushes their archive, I'd want to be able to still get prints if it was an important image. I wouldn't mind paying extra to buy them at this later date.

                                  This is especially true for wedding pictures, or other pictures commemorating a particularly important event.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment

                                  • #197
                                    You have got to quit comparing apples and oranges. Let's compare day rates.

                                    The wedding guy charges anywhere from $1695 for a day. Susan Sexton charges $1500 for a day plus travel expenses.

                                    AND

                                    Susan says: "This provides you with 25-30 photos per roll, yours to keep at no extra charge. Enlargements are extra. This also includes the license to use any or all of the photos to promote your stallion's services in print and on your website. " Read it for yourself

                                    Weddings are not commercial photo shoots. There is no issue of advertising usage. Susan is providing a tremendous value at that price considering she is a nationally recognized photographer vs. the Prism guys who say "We have a modest studio in West Boylston with low rent." Yeah, that's cute. I want the "low rent" guys to shoot my wedding. LOL Read it yourself

                                    If Terri Miller invests all the money to shoot a horse show and market a photo for commercial use on speculation (meaning she assumes all risk) then she deserves $350 for commercial usage.

                                    Comment

                                    • #198
                                      TigerLIly, now who is comparing apples to oranges? We have been talking about farm shoots where all the expenses are paid plus hourly/day rate - there is no risk! Sounds like Susan is doing it right - work for hire - just like we said it should be. It is the on-going royalties after a farm shoot that I have problems with!

                                      Also, at a horse show, when you PAY the shooting fee, again there is no risk - ie, work for hire - I pay a fee with no recourse if I don't like the resulting photo - look up the terms of the copyright stuff - commissioned "art" if you will, is considered "work for hire".

                                      I have absolutely no problem with a photographer taking photos on their own from their own perspective and keeping their own copyright, selling it for whatever they want. I DO have a problem with paying for a specific shoot with some input as to how I (not they) want the outcome to be and then having it held over my head year after year.

                                      Comment

                                      • #199
                                        been there

                                        I agree with you 100%. It is the following statement of susan b's that I was addressing and disagreeing with.

                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One last thing, if you've ever hired someone good to come out to your farm to do a farm shoot, then $1695 would be pretty cheap once you have paid their plane, put them up, and paid the rest of the expenses. But I would make sure that I had control of MY PICTURES. Contrast that to Terri's $350 for only 2 years use of, let's say, 6 photos = $2100.00 not including expenses! Ouch! and NO WAY! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Comment

                                        • #200
                                          I don't get the difference.? Sounds like you two are saying the same thing.

                                          Comment

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