Horse Slaughter Returning

[horsecrazy]

For anyone who has seen the Animal Angels undercover FOIA docs from Beltex - how can that ever, EVER be okay?

For those who haven't, I'm warning you that it is quite disturbing, but sure blows that whole "humane slaughter in the U.S." theory clear out of the water...

http://www.animals-angels.com/index....link:linkID=48


Photos/video are graphic but prove a point - http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/


I too believe this topic is about the feasibility study in ND. If I lived there I would sure be pissed that my tax dollars were going toward that...

[Bluey]

Actually we could be talking about my horses, we could be talking about my horses stolen and sold for slaughter. As long as it's an easy transaction we run that added risk of not only having our horses stolen but brutally slaughtered. It's very hard to trace and way to easy to do. I've heard plenty of horror stories, such as when the wagon train went through the country, some horse thieves went along with them and there was a rash of horse theft wherever they went. No trace of the horses, none of them were tracked down as far as I know and it really didn't make the front page of the newspaper either.

One of the sadest stories I heard was the little girl who's pony was taken and they found it's hyde in the pile and identified it at Cavel. The father took his daughter to Washington to lobby to end horse slaughter with their story. Cavel offered to compensate them for the value of the meat. That was all they were entitled to get.

Overbreeding is not the answer!

First, when you call slaughtering "brutally", I already know where you are coming from, as that is the animal right sites talk.
No, slaughter is inherently not brutal, any more than training horses is.
We do what we have to do with horses and it doesn't has to be brutal.
If it is in any way, there are laws against it and we can make more.

Some horse trainers are brutal, so are some horse traders.
Those are the PEOPLE we need to prosecute, not use that some trainers are abusers to ban trainers, or that some horse sometime was abused while going to slaughter to ban all slaughter.
We don't ban cars because some drive drunk. We put drunk drivers away.

Just think, if people really were handling brutally the horses they are trying to sell as meat, they would be hurting their own pockets, as bruised meat is discarded and they would not be paid for them.

As for the rare stolen horse, not all go to slaughter.
We can have stricter laws to control horse movement, we can have a passport identifying every one horse, as they do in Europe.
NAIS, anyone? That will take care of stolen horses.

[Bluey]

For anyone who has seen the Animal Angels undercover FOIA docs from Beltex - how can that ever, EVER be okay?

For those who haven't, I'm warning you that it is quite disturbing, but sure blows that whole "humane slaughter in the U.S." theory clear out of the water...

http://www.animals-angels.com/index....link:linkID=48


Photos/video are graphic but prove a point - http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/


I too believe this topic is about the feasibility study in ND. If I lived there I would sure be pissed that my tax dollars were going toward that...

You know, I have watched a few of those videos and refuse to watch any more, because they were taken clear out of context, were pure propaganda, with the same images over and over to make it look like it was many horses, when it was the same, etc.

Not only that, since I know that such is not happening regularly, I very much suspect those were something does happen was staged, just as it was staged that someone dropped a carcass and rehung it.

People are paying workers to do things wrong and so they can be videoed, so those videos, knowing that and the way they are edited don't count, really.
Do you remember the big outcry last summer about the workers dragging a dairy cow around in a slaughter plant in CA? You ought to, it was all over the news.
When it was all said and done, they had dragged that cow against all regulations and knew it was so, waited until the inspector went inside to tend to something else to do it.
Were those people paid to do that, since it was such a rare occurrence and someone, how convenient, was right there to tape them?

I know from people that were in horse slaughter plants that nothing happens there as those videos show.
The companies have survelliance videos and if they caught anything that is not right going on, people would be fired asap.

You have to come up with something more believable than some like those animal rights site videos.

[tkhawk]

Animal abandonment is another issue. Millions of dogs and cats get euthanized/abandoned at shelters each year. Slaughter of cats and dogs has never been allowed. Those two are different factors.
Right now the economy is bad-even those who have jobs, never know if the rug is going to be pulled from under them. Although just my experience and a few of my investor friends-almost everybody is feeling we have hit bottom already or are pretty close to it. I am seriously looking for property-if they pass that homeowner tax credit with the stimulus, I will jump. So will a few of my friends.So we shall see. But otherwise in this condition, if you want to cut expenses-lessons/training/shows/extra horses-those are the first thing you want to cut.

I am single and have no kids-so even though I have a fund for my horses and savings for me-I can hold up for a while. but if I had kids, it don't matter if it is a horsie fund-I will spend on the kids first-it is just life. If you have your own land and then just feed-that is different. but board when everything is falling apart-looks expensive, no matter how much money you have in the bank. It is just like any business environment-people with money don't want to spend-because of the uncertainity. Until that confidence is restored, it is tough for everybody.

Stimulus-well-the govt gave 800 billion plus no strings attached to big corporations who are still flying their corporate jets and paying multi million bonuses. They are not lending money out to customers,small businesses or even big business. At least if the govt gets the ball rolling and creates some activity-maybe-just maybe it might create some momentum and prop up a few industries and give us some breathing space. The situation is dire-in that there is an utter lack of confidence in the market mechanism. Any other ideas to unfreeze the credit markets and jumpstart the economy?? This may not work-but at least if it creates some jobs and gives a boost of confidence-great-if not oh well-we shall see-at least I may get a tax credit for buying condoms!

Back to slaughter-I don't know-I won't be in support of it-just personal reasons. But I guess nobody's mind is going to change on that-so we just have to agree to disagree. But using abandonment to justify slaughter is just the same tactic the AR groups use in their campaigns-Oh poor things people abandon horses-so lets just kill them and eat them-that will help the horses!..

[Ambrey]

Point 1: We have a horse overpopulation problem, plain and simple. Something must be done with the excess horses.

Point 2: There are TAXPAYER FUNDED euthanasia/shelter programs for other pets with overpopulation problems.

Point 3: There is no NEED for a TAXPAYER FUNDED euthanasia program for horses, because horse meat has value on the international market. If dog meat had value on the international market, would we be needlessly wasting it?

[Bluey]

---"Back to slaughter-I don't know-I won't be in support of it-just personal reasons. But I guess nobody's mind is going to change on that-so we just have to agree to disagree. But using abandonment to justify slaughter is just the same tactic the AR groups use in their campaigns-Oh poor things people abandon horses-so lets just kill them and eat them-that will help the horses!.."---

You are right, abandonment is wrong and, for what I know, I think it is illegal anyway.

No, slaughter is not a way to keep people from abandoning horses, but it makes sense that without it, when people, as now, know that they won't get anything for a horse they don't want or can care for any longer and no one else wants and that won't sell at the local auction, like here, where are they going to go with that horse?

That is why some abandone some horses, wrong as it is, just as so many dump dogs and cats.

I agree, all this talk is moot question, as the HSUS has the current government officials and their supporters in it's pocket.

By winning the little battles and feeling oh so righteous about not having slaughter, or rodeo, or racing, or whatever you don't like, you have also given a larger voice to those that don't want ANY use of animals by humans and that means eventually losing also what YOU are using your horses for.

[NoDQhere]

Millions of cats and dogs ARE slaughtered (euthanized) in this country, we just don't eat them. They are killed and some of their bodies are used in research and teaching situations, and the rest are "thrown away". Yet the animal rights advocates think that is OK. But it isn't OK to slaughter excess and unwanted horses and use them as food???

[tkhawk]

.

Point 3: There is no NEED for a TAXPAYER FUNDED euthanasia program for horses, because horse meat has value on the international market. If dog meat had value on the international market, would we be needlessly wasting it?

Dog meat does have value in the international market. They eat them in several countries. In India where I grew up, we have a huge population of feral dogs. They have co-existed for centuries. There is always a scandal some where or the other-some township decides that instead of rounding up strays and euthanizing them, it would make them some money if they sell them to Korea or China. then there is a huge outcry and it gets shut down. huge populations eat dogs and cats-same thing like horses here-as people start to view them as pets-or in some cases member of families-traditions that seemed ok for centuries-suddenly seem horrid.

It is just the way it is-the butcher who grew up butchering a dog or a cat must be thinking that all these damn city dwellers who are fighting to end it are just idiots with no clue. It is what it is-with animals unfortuantely, there is no black and white-culture/current use seems to determine the "status" more than actual situation on the ground.

It is also complicated-like me-except this issue-I can't stand the AR groups. But I guess thats life..

[Ambrey]

Dog meat does have value in the international market. They eat them in several countries. In India where I grew up, we have a huge population of feral dogs.

By value on the international market, I mean that someone would buy the dog meat from us.

Since most countries that eat dogs have their own ample population, they aren't willing to pay us for ours (think about the cost of shipping).

Dog meat is not a resource. Horse meat is.

[tkhawk]

actually dog meat -don't want to gross out pet owners-is a very good resource. Think about the cost, time and expense it takes to get a horse or a cow to the market. they only have one calf at a time-well most of the time. They eat a lot and unless you eat veal-you have to wait a bit to get them ready for slaughter. Not to mention either buying huge tracks of land or feeding them. Sometimes looking at the price of a cow-I just wonder how a small scale cattle rancher can break even-if he bought the farm/ranch/equipment etc. new at today's prices.

Dogs-again just conjecture-but if you look at them as a resource and say run them the way they run puppy mills-in crates and just fed them and let them have multiple litters and ship them the same way-if you labelled them as livestock. That will open up a market-especially if you look at the cost of shelters that no longer need to be maintained. That is the sad thing with animals-it depends.
Like me I will eat anything, just me personally,I don't see anything wrong with fur-if you can eat the inside of an animal, I don't see why you can't wear the outside-especially since you are already wearing leather. I don't wear fur-but I live in So. California. If I lived in Alaska, I probably will. I am pro hunting- I think those animals get to live free in the wild and instead of a predator we take them.

but this issue alone-it is the same with dogs and cats-I won't support their slaughter either-but agin it is just personal. probably why we get emotional-because to be honest I don't have a rational explanation to give as to why I can kill and eat Bambi and not dear horsey. But it is what it is-I do have a few pro slaughter horsie friends-much better to discuss online in anonymity rather than banging your head with people you know and ride with-just decided to agree to disagree !!..

[Ambrey]

actually dog meat -don't want to gross out pet owners-is a very good resource..

Not if nobody is buying....

There is no money in dog meat. Few countries eat dog meat, and those who do don't need to import it.

If they did, someone would have set up shop already.

[rainechyldes]

Not if nobody is buying....

There is no money in dog meat. Few countries eat dog meat, and those who do don't need to import it.

If they did, someone would have set up shop already.

totally ot but I'll wiegh in.
There actually have been case studys in the US no less done on using this as a market.
Just do a search of dog meat for human consumption- and you'll see quite a few pop up.
There is a market, - whether any of us in NA wish to think about it/admit to it is entirely another issue.

in several they even discuss the domestic market in the US and Canada for dog meat- it exists also.

and to keep this on topic.
I have never personally thought that the existence of slaughter yay or nay prevents 'abuse'. Animal abusers exist within a population whether or not slaughter is operating within their borders.

I think the rough economy at the moment has had a serious impact however- and people are running out of places to find their horses a safe place when they can no longer afford it.

Many people can't face putting down a horse thats hale and hearty, if they can move it along in the faint hope it'll end up someplace good. Any more then some vets won't euth a healthy horse.

Abandonment is on the uprise. Its been documented a lot lately.

Really given the harsh reality of your children or your horse, mm yes I can see why abandoning/auctioning the horse wins. **I don't agree with it, but I can understand it.**

If your situation becomes desperate enough that you can't afford a euth, no one will take your horse, rescues are full.. what are your options left when faced with losing your livelyhood, maybe your house etc? And wondering how you'll put food on the table next week?

Those are the realities I'm seeing and hearing a lot lately.
My neighbor was hit hard in this. I took his horses because he couldn't afford to board & feed them and they had nowhere to go:/ They are still his - and hopefully once he's back his feet, I'll be bringing them back over. But - not everyone has that safety net of frineds, etc who can babysit large animals when you run into trouble.

And the reality is, Horses are still being slaughtered, but they have to travel much farther to do so.
Into countries the US has no control over - I simply don't see how this is 'better' then having slaughter plants in place in the US. And yes some can say well Canada should outlaw it!

Should we? I dunno. Then all NA horses will be traveling down to Mex, even from here, I still wouldn't understand how making a longer trip is 'better'.. sigh.

[Ambrey]

I did a search- I found that there is a market in the countries in which such meat is consumed, but no market analysis showing that one could make money by butchering/selling dogs here.

Eating dogs is even, apparently, illegal in most countries (even in those in which it's done). So, I can't see how someone could set up a legal trade.

However, horse meat is not illegal, is in demand by people with money to pay for it, and does support a thriving market (as evidenced by the fact that even having to truck the horses to Mexico and Canada has not stemmed the tide any).

[gwenrowdy]

Oh I sure hope so!!!!!!

I'm glad you're not MY advocate. Thank God for life's little favors.

[county]

I hope it does also but doubt it will the amount of investment is just so high I don't see private investors spending that much money on a new plant. The U.S. Gov. has never given any indication their ever going to make a fed. ban of any type. The Senate could care less and has always left it up to each state to regulate horse slaughter within its boundries. Were sending about the same to a little more horses to slaughter in Can. and Mex. as we did here so that part of it hasn't changed at all. Some have to travel a little further but not a great deal from here in Mn. we've always sent them to Can. that hasn't changed why would anyone want them to go to Tx. if lenght of haul is an issue. The new Beltex plant in Mex. isn't much futher then the one they had in Tx. so its not like they added 1000's of miles onto the haul.

Even if the Senate ever took interest in the proposed bill this time the odds it gets passed as written are about nil. Its meaningless and the Senate doesn't like passing something they know cannot be enforced.

[Bluey]

I consider slaughter in itself one of the unpleasant parts of life.
Everything born will die.
When and how, we don't know, we may have a very short life or rather long.
When we raise animals for our use, many of them are designated to live relatively short lives and be slaughtered for our uses.

I see that as a part of how life works, except that we don't go out in the wild any more and bop something over the head to slaughter it, but we raise that something and make friends and even pets of some of them, but we know why they are born and raised.

We have to understand that the much fewer animals that are born and die in their evolution niche don't really have much different lives, other than they generally live much shorter time and die a considerably more gruesome death than being bopped on the head and dropping immediately.

Humans went from surviving to live to learning to provide so we could live longer, better lives and we have done that with many of our animals when we domesticated and cared for them.

That animals are better off in "nature" than as a domestic animal just doesn't bear under scrutiny, just as people didn't fare better when early humans were small nomadic groups fighting for substinence and resources with other humans and animals.
Nature is not kind. I have come on deer and antilope that were still alive, that had been laying there for at least hours, after some coyotes brought them down and ate on them, leaving them lay there still alive.
Yep, that gives me more nightmares than the quick shot a horse no one wanted for their use alive gets in a slaughter line.

Thru breeding, raising and slaughter we use one more of our natural resources we have in this planet.

Now, to the question of what slaughter is we have to add the culture that determine what we eat and how and what is a proper way to treat animals up to that slaughter point.

I am all for working to keep those people that abuse animals from being around any, be it a slaughter buyer, some deluded rescue owner or mean trainer, whoever.

Just as slaughter is unpleasant to think about, it is inherently not any kind of abuse, they are just the way the world has found to use some resources.

Now, any kind of abuse, be it of animals, people or any resource that is misused, THAT is what all of us need to fight and it will be a fight that will last all our lives, because it seems that some people are born abusive.

Abusing our resources happen every place, even in the animal kingdom.
Anyone ever see pictures of a pack of wolves bringing down moose and, if they are several running, keep killing as many as they can, even if they can't possibly eat that many?

Many sheep rancher will find that, when coyotes get in their sheep, they may kill 30 or more, just for fun, eating only on a few, leaving the rest there dead or dying.

Some people are like that, they have fun killing or destroying anything, just because it is fun to them.
THOSE people is the ones we want to "ban", the ones we want to keep from abusing and if we can't confine or kill them.

We are letting the animal rights people use ABUSE to deny us rights to USE animals, in their quest to not have any humans use animals.
I think we are going at our defense of our use of animals wrong when we fall for that.

Sure, we don't want people fighting dogs or chickens for sport, but people do love their boxing or football, where people are hitting each other and plenty get maimed, so we know where they are coming from.
Still, when it comes to animals, we should understand that there are limits on those uses that cross over to abuse and having them fight is one of those.
Slaughtering them for our use, when done carefully, as slaughter plants really, honestly try to, is not inherently abusive.

I agree that horse slaughter in the USA would be too hard to explain to the general population that has been bombarded with animal right propaganda now for many decades, over a generation now.
People don't know any more where the lines are from proper use to abuse and are led to believe whatever someone tells them on their propaganda.

If we really were to fall in hard times, where people start to go hungry, I expect that there would be many that would not mind having some protein from all those extra horses out there, if it was handy and cheap.
Since we are not there, at least not yet and hopefully never, I doubt that anyone would want the hassle to manage a horse slaughter plant in today's crazy animal rights environment, with the millions those groups have to throw at stopping them.

[horsecrazy]

Millions of cats and dogs ARE slaughtered (euthanized) in this country, we just don't eat them. They are killed and some of their bodies are used in research and teaching situations, and the rest are "thrown away". Yet the animal rights advocates think that is OK. But it isn't OK to slaughter excess and unwanted horses and use them as food???

Slaughter does not = euthanasia

[JSwan]

Personally, I think we should have many many more slaughter plants. For all livestock.

The more plants that exist, the less travel time required. Less travel means less stress. Less stress means more humane. More humane is a good thing.

Unfortunately, no one seems to want more slaughter plants. It's all ban ban ban NIMBY ban ban ban NIMBY ban ban ban....

So we outsource it, consolidate it, legislate against it - then complain that animal welfare isn't improving because the animals travel too far, they're slaughtered outside the country, too many animals packed into too small an area....

No sh**. We create the very situations we consider inhumane and then bitch about the fact that it's inhumane.

The one thing we WON'T do is change our behavior or accept responsibility. AR groups are responsible for the fact that horses must now go to Mexico or Canada.

I'm still waiting for their apology. Not to me - but to the horses. And before people start saying that a complete ban would solve the problem - that's BS. Where are those horses going to go? We're in a recession, the global economy is in the toilet, people are losing their homes, their jobs, their lives.

The world isn't going to stop what it's doing to help find homes for tens of thousands of unwanted horses. No locality is equipped to conduct mass euthanasia of unwanted horses. There is a market for the meat. There are working plants that brought jobs to local economies.

In this economy - no one is going to mess with that. The horses are going away, money is coming in. As far as the government is concerned, it's one part of the economy that is still functioning. Right now - they've got bigger problems than horse slaughter.

Which means - it won't be banned soon and those animals are going to have to travel thousands of miles. While at home it's more ban ban ban, NIMBY, ban ban ban.

Thanks for your tender mercies, AR groups. Keep your mittens off my animals, I don't care for your version of "animal welfare".

[War Admiral]

Some have to travel a little further but not a great deal from here in Mn. we've always sent them to Can. that hasn't changed why would anyone want them to go to Tx. if lenght of haul is an issue.

It would be nice to think that all horse dealers are ever so humane and let the horses have the shortest available trip; sadly, that is not the case. Most of 'em drive around collecting until they have a full truckload. When I was 16 my horse was stolen from a race track in Massachusetts where he was being treated by the track vet (Tufts Univ. vet school didn't exist then, and the track vet was the best in the state). Four days later the US Border Patrol found him crossing the Canadian border in DETROIT.

As long as horses are still being STOLEN so that horse meat dealers can make a couple hundred bucks, I will be against horse slaughter in the U.S.A. and elsewhere.

[county]

Are you also against cattle slaughter for the same reason? The number of horses stolen that go to slaughter isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cattle.