Horse Slaughter Returning

[Susan P]

Actually not at all, not saying that, where did you come up with that conclusion? I merely stated that what Equine Law said about pushing the pro slaughter agenda has actually made more vegetarians than they've gained support. I supported that comment by telling my personal experience, having had dinner with 3 steak eaters and meeting them a couple years later for dinner and out went the steak, in came the veggie platter. I didn't even say I agreed or disagreed with their choices, it was theirs, I still eat meat but surely look at it in a different light. I say that the issue has brought light on the whole factory farming issue and slaughter industry. So therefore the pro slaughter folks aren't gaining anything for the meat industry. This is hardly a revolution I'm talking about. But we do have more enlightened people and there is a movement to become more humane. I see that all around me, though very slow changes and maybe it will never be enough to rock the world.

Wait, you honestly think that anti-slaughter activism is going to dampen the US's demand for beef?

When the fact that the beef industry is basically destroying the planet hasn't even made a dent?

[Bluey]

Do you always enjoy twisting people's words around?

I never listen to public radio, stop trying to turn this into something else. Just so happens I'm probably one of the most conservative people in this forum. Not that it matters, but your trying to turn this discussion into a anything to win the debate and I'm not debating, just stating facts, try it some time. Not real concerned whether cows belch or not. My grandfathers cows never really interested me. I was just trying to stay out of the isle when they came through to be milked.

I think you're the one making wild statements. Come back to reality. I state facts, not opinion like you're doing.

I grew up in Europe right after the war, with rationed food and very little of it and hardly no meat, other than a little pork and more rare lamb.
We would have been glad to have horse meat.

I didn't even eat a beefsteak in my life before I came to the USA as an adult.
I am not impressed because your husband grew up as I did and now doesn't want to eat this or that.
We are lucky that we now have all the food we want and can be particular about what we eat, but it is not anything to be very proud of.
Not many are that lucky in this world.

I find it rather absurd that people living in the USA and even more so those posting here, that have a considerably higher standard of living than most in the rest of the world, are complaining about how the world uses their resources, when we are those that consume the most of all, including destroying open land, paving over for highways, cities, suburbs, malls, golf courses, etc.

[Ambrey]

Not "a large percentage", since most of those farmers are raising grains in those lands they clear.
Since the land, without fertilizer is not productive any more after a few years, they leave it and go clear some more.

Hard to tell other countries what they should do or why.

60% of deforestation is for cattle ranching, I'd call that "a large percentage."

[Ambrey]

Actually not at all, not saying that, where did you come up with that conclusion? I merely stated that what Equine Law said about pushing the pro slaughter agenda has actually made more vegetarians than they've gained support.

Then one of you followed up with the comment along the lines of "maybe the beef industry should think about that." I believe the beef industry probably has a whole lot of research in their coffers reassuring them that America isn't likely to go veggie any time soon, and is pretty unconcerned by the prospect.

I can't imagine why people going vegetarian should be of concern to me- it sounds to me like people putting their money (or appetites) where their mouths are and living their beliefs. I say more power to them. It makes a lot more sense to me than "horse slaughter is wrong and anyone who argues with me is a bad person who deserves to be kicked" while munching on a Big Mac.

[Bluey]

60% of deforestation is for cattle ranching, I'd call that "a large percentage."

My understanding is that in many of those places, cattle use is the first on those cleared lands for clean up, but their ultimate intent is to farm it for grains.
Only where cattle are the best use for those lands, where grains are not growing well, they leave them as pastures.

[jetsmom]

No, you miss the point- this would bring the slaughter money into the US instead of Canada and Mexico, and allow us to provide for whatever demand there IS economically (usually if costs go down, demand will go up).

eta: When it goes wrong, vet-administered death is painful as well. When it goes wrong, any kind of death is painful.

A living horse brings in more money, (and ALL of it to people in the US), than a slaughtered horse does. Farriers,meds, vets, grain, hay, boarding, supplies, etc.

[Bluey]

A living horse brings in more money, (and ALL of it to people in the US), than a slaughtered horse does. Farriers,meds, vets, grain, hay, boarding, supplies, etc.

Unless there are way more horses than homes for them.
We have a mature horse industry, that in fact may be shrinking and so leaving even more horses unwanted.

Those horses are not bringing anyone anything and some of those are suffering from being unwanted and in the hands of uncaring people, which is a different problem yet.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Oh - I thought they made your go blind or grow hair on your palms.

When I have no money, no job and am bored I just eat chocolate. Chocolate cures EVERYTHING. I read it that on the Internet so it must be true.

My vet prefers to euthanize by gunshot/captive bolt. He'll euthanize chemically if the client asks. There are other large animal vets that prefer not to use chemicals - and it's NOT because they are cheap or bad vets in case anyone is going to get all huffy about it.

Guess there is no way to guarantee a good death - any method can go horribly wrong.

J Swann, what are you going to do when the chocolate runs out?

Misty Blue, I don't think the thought process is thinking a baby at every try. Doesn't take much math to work out the odds, trouble is the odds don't always work in the favor of limiting population increase.


My vet isn't into the idea of euthanizing a healthy specimen.

[county]

I've got to be pro slaughter if for no other reason then the people on the two sides. On the anti side you have people <edited> (who) encourage (them to) attack others, in all they show the class of people they are. I don't care to be that low of class.

[Bluey]

Lets remember that in the USA, our HORSES have a higher standard of living then many PEOPLE in this world.
Still, they are HORSES and we are PEOPLE and, no matter how much we may care for our horses, that won't change that they are HORSES and livestock first.
That doesn't mean that as the horses they are, they deserve any other than the best and we do care for them as such.

As a generic horse and, as so many are, that no one here has use for, those horses, deserving our care so that they are not abused, should not be considered in principle any other than the horses and livestock they are.
If someone wants to make one last use of them thru slaughter, as the natural, renewable resources they are, WHY NOT?

We already ban ABUSE, lets work together to curb abuse where it happens, but not ban our use of some of those horses, just because some perfectly good use offends someone's sensibilities.
If we can't understand living and let live, divided we will fall in front of the animal rights extremists.

We would not even have horses as they are today and so good for all we want to do with them if we had not domesticated them and used them for our purposes, all kinds of them.
There would not even be any horses in this continent or in many other places.

As this quote shows us, those that are pushing for all these measures to keep us from using animals, including horses and here horses thru slaughter, have this as their ultimate goal.

Many, even some in the horse industry, like so many posters here, are by being so strident about banning slaughter only helping them eventually eliminate all our use of horses:

---"“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.”
— Animal People News"---

We are fighting between ourselves at our own peril.
Divide and conquer works here well for our common enemy, as we can see.

These debates here, for our horse industry, are similar to a home owner's association fighting over which size fence is permissible in their subdivision, not paying attention to the floods that are coming down the valley to anihilate them all.

[JSwan]

I'm not overly familiar with the traditional cuisine of northern Italy - more south of Rome. Unless things have changed food on that continent is still much more expensive than food is in the US.

I've not kept track of current horsemeat prices, so I don't know if prices are horribly high. Some European countries do eat horsemeat as part of their normal diet. In those countries, France and Belgium among them, it's not a "delicacy" or just for rich people. It's not for poor people. It's just meat and like any other meat, prices vary among species and cuts and quality.

But I admit that one's opinion of what constitutes a delicacy will differ. To me, going to a restaurant and having an expensive steak is a really big deal and quite an extravagance. I've got friends that go out several days a week and often have expensive dinners and expensive cuts of meat.

They think I'm stingy and I think they're wasteful.

The Morningstar products are pretty good. I didn't care for the bacon product but the rest was pretty good.

I'm afraid I can't comment much on the "humane" treatment of livestock because I raise my own and process the chickens here. To a lot of folks that's disgusting.

But again - opinions will differ. Am I evil or inhumane because I take the life of a chick I've raised and then eat it? Or am I humane because that animal had a great life and had dust baths and bugs galore. Or am I inhumane because that animal was exposed to danger and disease instead of being properly protected? Same thing with a pig or steer. If I handle them, speak to them, let them have plenty of sunshine, grass and dirt baths, and then take them to the butcher - am I evil or inhumane? Or am I humane because they had a great life. Or am I inhumane because my farm does not have all the bells and whistles of a large operation?

See what I mean? Every perspective is legit.

My husband was born and raised in northern Italy. They will eat anything that moves. It's from the need to survive, especially during the world wars, northern Italy suffered a great deal, you will eat almost anything so as not to starve. You acquire a taste for it. But I don't recall my husband mentioning eating horse personally. When he recently went back to his home town he attended a dinner where they did serve horse meat, he told me he turned it down. I know that after being with our horses he is very fond of them. He's eaten all kinds of meat without squirming and I've eaten a variety too. I just won't eat pets or my companions. If horses were not companions in America we might be more inclined to see them as food.

I am concerned about the way all animals are treated, not that I think that we should become vegetarians, that's a personal choice, I respect both opinions, both decisions. After all, animals eat other animals and it's not pretty. But we are the highly intelligent creatures, we do not need to torture animals to death, we can show them compassion when we end their lives, we can be the most considerate, not ripping the flesh off of them while they are alive and struggling. We can take more time, do it more considerate of their fear, quickly, effectively, though maybe less profitably and at a higher cost to the consumer. However we must always keep in mind that the highest cost is always to the animal who's life is taken, they don't just pay with a higher price, they pay with everything, their lives. So when meat prices go up, and we have less selection, we may be less wasteful and opt for more vegetarian dishes. I personally enjoy Morningstar Farms burgers, they are different but tasty, just for example. My husband likes the veggie burgers too.

[equinelaw]

I'm not overly familiar with the traditional cuisine of northern Italy - more south of Rome. Unless things have changed food on that continent is still much more expensive than food is in the US.

I've not kept track of current horsemeat prices, so I don't know if prices are horribly high. Some European countries do eat horsemeat as part of their normal diet. In those countries, France and Belgium among them, it's not a "delicacy" or just for rich people. It's not for poor people. It's just meat and like any other meat, prices vary among species and cuts and quality.

But I admit that one's opinion of what constitutes a delicacy will differ. To me, going to a restaurant and having an expensive steak is a really big deal and quite an extravagance. I've got friends that go out several days a week and often have expensive dinners and expensive cuts of meat.

They think I'm stingy and I think they're wasteful.

The Morningstar products are pretty good. I didn't care for the bacon product but the rest was pretty good.

I'm afraid I can't comment much on the "humane" treatment of livestock because I raise my own and process the chickens here. To a lot of folks that's disgusting.

But again - opinions will differ. Am I evil or inhumane because I take the life of a chick I've raised and then eat it? Or am I humane because that animal had a great life and had dust baths and bugs galore. Or am I inhumane because that animal was exposed to danger and disease instead of being properly protected? Same thing with a pig or steer. If I handle them, speak to them, let them have plenty of sunshine, grass and dirt baths, and then take them to the butcher - am I evil or inhumane? Or am I humane because they had a great life. Or am I inhumane because my farm does not have all the bells and whistles of a large operation?

See what I mean? Every perspective is legit.

The export prices of finished meat is around $15 US per lb. I have no idea if that is expensive to the target market. It is to me.

Since most of us, if not all of us, have no problem with humane euthanasia I do not think most of us would find killing well cared for chickens at home and eating them inhumane.

But we would freak if you started filling up your freezer with Beagle meat. I doubt there is a law against that, but there is a social code against it.

The majority of people on the last anonymous poll were against eating horse meat--but just barely. The large majority were against slaughter because it has not been carried out in a a humane fashion in the past. That includes the dumping of the horse, the auction conditions, the shipping and the slaughter and the attitude that a pet is something you just through away for a few bucks when its no longer nay use.

I have no problem with the use of the horse for dog kennels or zoos if everything leading up to it is humane and the actual owner is standing there and gets no $$ for the horse. I would not do that with my own horse. I regret not burying him on my farm. I didn't know how much the presence of his body was going to mean to me.

I do not think every living thing must be recycled or used to its fullest extent. I have no plans on donating my body or organs to science. I so have a friend who wants to be left in the woods of her farm for the critters to eat, but while I respect her decision, it makes her family very sad.

I do not think the eating of humans is going to be very popular, but if the main goal is the best and highest use of meat products then that is just as valid a slippery slope argument as all the others. Why waste all that meat? Surely in nature human bodies are subject to scavengers and carrion eaters too?

[bird4416]

Horse shit!!! That was my argument when I used to hunt deer. I have only been around horses for a year now and even I know that the horse is no deer. The horse that you are talking about sending to slaughter was once your soulmate, your best friend, your everything. You and many on this forum should be ashamed of themselves for the disrespect that you have displayed toward this animal (and this is a horse forum?). However, given the fact that this country condones the abortion of human beings, I should have expected no less.

Not every horse lives with Cinderella or Snow White.
Who lets their "soulmate" get into this condition?
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832rCFxnN

or this condition

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832mYdprO


These horses suffered terribly at the hands of their "soulmate" "best friend" "everything"

While I would not send my personal horses to slaughter, sometimes I think it would be much kinder than wasting away in someone's backyard, totally unwanted and uncared for.

[Susan P]

I personally find the commercial slaughter and factory farming the cruelest. If small farmers killed their own or sent them to a local butcher the fear would more likely be taken out of the equation, the transport and handling and "efficiency factor" of commercial slaughter to maximize profits is often the reason the animals suffer the most. I applaud anyone who can handle raising and killing their own animals for meat though I don't know that I could do that unless really pressed. I can't say what I would do in a starvation situation. I do see different animals in different ways and humans in another category, because I believe we were all created uniquely.

We all have different reasons for our opinions. I completely understand that we all come from different backgrounds but as a forum for horse people I would expect that we put horses into their own category since they are very different from both livestock and pets, they are still companion animals though large, grazing outdoor animals. I know we all spend a lot of time with them outdoors. I believe if we didn't have a relationship with a horse in our lifetime we wouldn't be posting in this forum now.

I'm not overly familiar with the traditional cuisine of northern Italy - more south of Rome. Unless things have changed food on that continent is still much more expensive than food is in the US.

I've not kept track of current horsemeat prices, so I don't know if prices are horribly high. Some European countries do eat horsemeat as part of their normal diet. In those countries, France and Belgium among them, it's not a "delicacy" or just for rich people. It's not for poor people. It's just meat and like any other meat, prices vary among species and cuts and quality.

But I admit that one's opinion of what constitutes a delicacy will differ. To me, going to a restaurant and having an expensive steak is a really big deal and quite an extravagance. I've got friends that go out several days a week and often have expensive dinners and expensive cuts of meat.

They think I'm stingy and I think they're wasteful.

The Morningstar products are pretty good. I didn't care for the bacon product but the rest was pretty good.

I'm afraid I can't comment much on the "humane" treatment of livestock because I raise my own and process the chickens here. To a lot of folks that's disgusting.

But again - opinions will differ. Am I evil or inhumane because I take the life of a chick I've raised and then eat it? Or am I humane because that animal had a great life and had dust baths and bugs galore. Or am I inhumane because that animal was exposed to danger and disease instead of being properly protected? Same thing with a pig or steer. If I handle them, speak to them, let them have plenty of sunshine, grass and dirt baths, and then take them to the butcher - am I evil or inhumane? Or am I humane because they had a great life. Or am I inhumane because my farm does not have all the bells and whistles of a large operation?

See what I mean? Every perspective is legit.

[ASB Stars]

Not every horse lives with Cinderella or Snow White.
Who lets their "soulmate" get into this condition?
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832rCFxnN

or this condition

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832mYdprO


These horses suffered terribly at the hands of their "soulmate" "best friend" "everything"

While I would not send my personal horses to slaughter, sometimes I think it would be much kinder than wasting away in someone's backyard, totally unwanted and uncared for.

The fact that the welfare laws do not have enough teeth in them does not make a case for slaughter. One doesn't justify the other.

The bottom line is that the laws protecting horses need to be streamlined from welfare authorities being able to seize horses, while there is still something to save, to stopping transport for slaughter, outside of our borders, with serious enforcement. Until then, the horses will be the ultimate losers, and the pro-slaughter people will sue arguments like this, ad nauseum.

[bird4416]

My point was the emotion that every horse is someone's soulmate. That is pure drivel. I certainly agree that the animal welfare laws need more funding and more bite. However, if you have an unwanted cat or dog, you have and option of the local county animal shelter. There is a chance of adoption and at worse euthanasia. People with unwanted horses have no such option. There is no county horse shelter where you can drop off your unwanted horse. As distasteful as it is, the local auction house and kill buyer did provide an option. The chance of a purchase by someone willing to provide a home and at worse, a ride to the slaughter house where hopefully it had a quick, humane end.

Wasting away in a dirt lot with insufficient food and a spotty water supply is not a good end.

[JSwan]

The export prices of finished meat is around $15 US per lb. I have no idea if that is expensive to the target market. It is to me.

Since most of us, if not all of us, have no problem with humane euthanasia I do not think most of us would find killing well cared for chickens at home and eating them inhumane.

But we would freak if you started filling up your freezer with Beagle meat. I doubt there is a law against that, but there is a social code against it.


I do not think every living thing must be recycled or used to its fullest extent. I have no plans on donating my body or organs to science. I so have a friend who wants to be left in the woods of her farm for the critters to eat, but while I respect her decision, it makes her family very sad.

That's expensive to me too. But remember I'm stingy with my own needs and wants.

Let's see - right now I'm seeing cut weight prices for local beef at about 5-6$ per lb. - that is a very general figure as some cuts are VERY expensive and ground beef isn't.

Rabbit meat I think it going for over 20$ - for one cut up little 2lb rabbit. Rabbit is very much NOT a delicacy - in Europe or the US.

Pork - I should know this off the top of my head but I can't remember. Again - depending on the cut it can be between 2-5$/lb.

Poultry - depending upon the species can be very expensive or not. These are US prices for US consumers - not overseas market prices.

Of course all these prices are going to vary. I had a relative visiting from France over the summer and it's always nice to get a little dose of reality from her. 1) Our food is dirt cheap compared to what she's paying. 2) Our portions are enormous. (that second quote is a direct one from her)

We are truly spoiled in the US.

I think it was the Sierra Club that used to advertise for "wilderness burials".

There are cultures that do leave bodies for the vultures. Can't say that I have a problem with it but I'd prefer it if the vultures didn't come visit my place after dinner. They projectile vomit if they feel threatened. Ask me how I know that.

Soylent Green is people!

Susan P - you have excellent points. I can tell you why I do not place horses above other species of livestock. Because given the opportunity, a human can develop an attachment to a cow, a pig, a goat or a chicken. If a person spends a lot of time with these species, and decides to watch them - they'll see that they are very similar to horses.

My chickens come running to me when I open the door. They follow me to the barn and hang out while I do chores. Right next to my dogs. One of the most beautiful sounds on earth is the sound of a large flock of chickens singing to themselves at sunset.

We don't keep horses purely as pets like we do dogs. Horses are generally working animals. They convey us so that we can enjoy ourselves in whatever sport or activity we deem "fun". But they do have to sing for their supper in some fashion.

But I do understand what you mean about the bond that develops. To a lot of people, having a horse is their only connection to nature, to the natural world, to the outdoors, to something simpler and more visceral. Trust me - I do understand. I just think that if you had a pet cow you'd soon discover that seeing the world through his eyes is just as wonderful.

[Susan P]

Just remember that slaughter is still currently an available option and just as hoarders of other animals is not effected by their options, those that allow horses to languish and suffer in their backyards will not change with or without the availability of slaughter. It's still ok to shoot your horse, send the meat to the zoo or wherever right in the USA. If someone is squeamish about shooting their horse then how can they consider having their horse go through a commercial slaughterhouse? A well placed, correct caliber bullet can do a good job putting a horse out of it's misery, just as well as injection, and if done right maybe kinder, won't debate that. What becomes of the carcass is of NO concern to the horse post mortem. My concern is the excessive numbers of healthy horses, horses stolen and the suffering of horses that are slaughtered not that a horse with a broken leg is killed and their bodies get "recycled" for whatever.

But if someone needs to hold on to the memory of their beloved friend and choose to do something else with their bodies we should know that worms need to eat too and their bodies with fertilize the earth and feed the worms just as my dear horse is doing. It was my choice to bury my horse, not that anyone could have used his body for anything at that point anyway, except for rendering.

Not every horse lives with Cinderella or Snow White.
Who lets their "soulmate" get into this condition?
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832rCFxnN

or this condition

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...34166832mYdprO


These horses suffered terribly at the hands of their "soulmate" "best friend" "everything"

While I would not send my personal horses to slaughter, sometimes I think it would be much kinder than wasting away in someone's backyard, totally unwanted and uncared for.

[county]

Susan P are you also concerned that other species of healthy animals are slaughtetred? Other species are stolen and sold to slaughter? Do you want those species banned also like others have stated?

[ASB Stars]

OK, County, here you go...

How about we have a program prepared to air on TV, or the internet, that shows the path of "livestock" such as chickens, turkeys, sheep, rabbits, goats, cattle, pigs, and horses, from breeding, to birth to your table. We'll allow the pro-slaughter advocates to show "best management practices", through the entire process. Then, we'll allow the anti-slaughter folks to to show the things that can and do happen. Fair and balanced.

Let's see how many people who actually watch are eating meat the next day, shall we?

It'll never happen. The pro-slaughter people would never let it air.