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OMG - Banning Carrages in NYC!!!

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
    I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...
    Yes some will-especially working horses. Before I moved, my mare was in pasture-the moment she heard my truck, she would be at the gate waiting for me. I do trail , often by myself and she loved it more than just being stuck in the pasture. When we are heading back , she often wanted to add another loop, before heading back to the trailer.

    A lot of horses I know love to go out and do their thing. If you are abusive and/or there are physical/pain issues, that is different. Some times, the horse may not like/is not suitable for the job at hand, which is different. But otherwise, just throwing them in pasture and not doing anything with them, when they are well trained,used to work and in their prime is certainly not utopia.

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    • #42
      I like seeing horses in the city, but I think I could live with the carriage trade being banned. What people from more rural areas don't seem to be 'getting' here is that everything does have to be legislated in a densely inhabited environment because there is always someone who will do just say "What? Show me where it says I can't do this!" as they butcher a steer in their apartment hallway - and in a highly populated area, their insane actions impact a lot of people, not just one hapless neighbor a couple acres over. The reason I'd be okay with a ban isn't a cruelty issue - I'm not sure I think it's unacceptably cruel to have carriage horses in the city - but because I think that the government agencies that are tasked with enforcing the animal humane laws are already strained and , and having them monitor stable owners is a waste of public resources.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Pat View Post
        You do understand that if the city DIDN'T put some kind of cap on this, then people would carry on, regardless of the temperature/humidity/air quality?

        You do understand that we are talking about NYC, not a show up state? You do understand that if it's 90 degrees in the City, it is also likely to be 95% (or worse) humidity? That the air quality is pretty gross at this point? If some ding dong wants to go jogging in that, it's his problem. The horses don't get a voice in that decision.

        Not to mention that when showing you 'work' in rather brief spurts and often have the time to take the horse back to the tent/your trailer in between classes. An average show horse, while actually showing, works for an hour to 90 minutes in a day (interupted by periods of waiting), is then fluffed and folded and tucked in with a big pile of hay, then later he gets a leisurely stroll to eat grass. Heck, some people even bring a generator and run fans in the tents! Apples and oranges.
        Have you never been to a local show where the overworked school pony is forced to tote kid after kid around in the heat and humidity? Those horses don't get a "vote" and don't get a lot of rest or water either. I've seen this happen time and again with more than one offender over the years. No fans for them just a hot trailer ride home. Somehow I think they might want to trade with the carriage horses for a week or two. A walk through traffic and the park would be better than a day at the show I would think.

        Originally posted by Beverley View Post
        You'll never convince me that a horse working in a dense city environment has it any worse than the average overfed, overstabled hunter or dressage horse.

        I have two points: One is, beware of the unqualified defining what is acceptable or unacceptable use of the horse, because where PETA and HSUS are headed is exactly toward 'you', the horse owner, and they want to define out of existence your right to own and enjoy horses.

        The second, related to the first is, once you have laws inappopriately defining 'where' horses are allowed (which is pretty much everywhere except the interstate), then it isn't long before local, then state, governments start saying 'no horses on ANY roads, it's dangerous to people driving cars, pedestrians, hikers, bikers, yada yada yada...' and before you know it, all horses are stuck in arenas.

        I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.
        Beverly, I agree with you completely.

        FWIW the carriage horses I have "met" in Philly have been friendly and happy looking beasties on the lookout for treats. They seem quite unconcerned by traffic and enjoy the attention they get from anyone who stops to say hello.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
          I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...
          I'm pretty sure most of the horses will go to slaughter, which I imagine will ruin their day.

          And, btw, as far as a pampered show horse only working for an hour a day then being "tucked in" to a stall? That's not nearly enough time spent physically active to keep them fit and healthy. Horses can easily and should imho, work at a slow pace or be outisde moving around for at least several hours per day. Ideally the majority of the day several days per week. It's much better for them in the long run.

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          • Original Poster

            #45
            I just love the "Set them free" comments They would die if they had to survive on pasture alone with no shoer or wormer in sight. I mean what the heck they are DOMESTICATED animals! not "wild" horses. My exceedingly under worked overly pampered horse would be taken down in a heart beat by a pack of errant Pomeranian's if he were "set free" For Pete's sake!!!
            "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

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            • #46
              my 2 cents worth...

              I have ridden at claremont when I was in New York, and I hated to see it close. As I recall, the horses walked down a side street that had almost NO traffic on it. I believe there was an understanding with the locals...The horses were very calm and it was a very enjoyable ride. I have mixed emotions about whether or not it should have been closed but that is for another discussion. We have carriage horses in Kansas City on the Plaza and I am not particularly fond of this. Unlike New York, they are CONSTANTLY in heavy traffic. In fact, there weren't even stop sign there till about ten years ago. They are stabled a mile away and lumber down 47th street. I personally do not think they look happy, but I do not know much about driving.
              I do not think these people would intensionaly do harm to their horses, but in Central Park, I do not think they have to deal with as much traffic. Do they?
              Another killer of threads

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              • #47
                How many posters have horses at a boarding barn where they may get a couple of hours of turnout a day, and are ridden for an hour or so a few times a week? The rest of the time they are stuck in a stall - I think that is more cruel than a well-cared for carriage horse in NYC. The woman DriveNJ mentioned takes excellent care of her horses, and her stables are regularly inspected by the city.

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                • #48
                  Blinders

                  Check out this website: http://www.blindersthemovie.com/ I saw this movie at a local movie festival and got to talk to the guy that made it. There are some really graphic images in the movie. It was really interesting to see and to talk to the guy. While I always smile when I go into NYC and see the horses (ok, so I smile whenever I see a horse, and if I drive by horses while in my truck, I still go LOOK AT THE PONIES!!), I do think it can be a fairly dangerous environment if they are not kept to Central Park and areas where there is not a lot of car traffic. There were some pretty horrible images of horses and carts that were hit by cars. There are other cities that have already banned horses and carriages for that reason.

                  Also, for those of you talking about horses having to work in 90+ heat and comparing it to NYC... Remember, when the horses are working in 90+ heat in the city, they are working on asphalt which reflects the heat and makes it hotter. And the people who are showing and working their horses in 90+ degree heat outside the city should know when it is and when it is not appropriate to work their horses and how hard. Shame on them for working a horse hard in excessive heat. I am happy that they have a set temperature for what is too hot to work the horses in and enforce it.

                  Another thing that scares me is the multilevel barns the horses are kept in. If there was a fire (Heaven forbid) how on earth would they get the horses out? This is a scary enough risk at any regular boarding barn outside a city, but when you have to take horses up and down ramps to get them in and out of their stalls, that just increases the chances of being unable to get horses out in the event of an emergency.
                  \"If the rider\'s heart is in the right place, his seat will be independent of his hands.\" ~Piero Santini

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                  • #49
                    No horses in cities? Or ridden/at work all day? Y'all gonna have a helluva time getting those horses out from under the mounted policemen.
                    You jump in the saddle,
                    Hold onto the bridle!
                    Jump in the line!
                    ...Belefonte

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I personally used to drive in Indianapolis...

                      And the 3 companies there take very good care of their horses, one place had no turn out at their in town barn, but traded horses out of town a couple times a week, the place I worked for was at what USED to be a slaughter house, and they had about 4 acres of turnout, but also had places out of downtown where they took horses too for vacation.

                      In all the years carriages have been in Indy, there have been about 5 serious accidents, in about 25+ years that's not too bad. After the last one, a drunk driver hitting a carriage, and knocking the driver off the carriage. PETA tried to get the city to remove the carriage horses, they didn't get very far.
                      " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                      http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

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                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        UFTemptation What a sensationalistic post and total propaganda movie Shame on you!

                        Horses and carriages get hit by cars - nearly every time it is the CAR that is the perpetrator. Ask anyone who lives in Amish country.

                        You PETA people are a PITA

                        Do you think horses are not able to deal with rain sleet and snow? Heat and cold? God made them amazingly adaptable and purposeful and useful. They are not hot house flowers.

                        And stable fires are your primary concern? Because they are multi storied My neighbor had an adorable 2 stall barn - ONE level! While she was at work one snowy day her cute little place burned to the ground and both horses - who were snuggled in deep bedding and high end blankies to protect them from a gentle snow fall perished in the blaze. So it happens and there is little a multi storied stable has to do with stable fires - that is just SILLY talk!
                        "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          I'm thinking that the way this thread has disolved is just evidence of why politicians shouldn't mess with trivia and why the logic was flawed in the first instance.

                          Banning horse drawn carriages in a city because SOME horses might be in the hands of inappropriate owners and inappropriate conditions is just stark staring bonkers. That's the reason to go after THOSE specific owners and take action against them specifically.

                          Likewise banning them because SOME horses might be badly and inappropriately stabled with no turn out at all..... ever then this is again NOT the reason to ban them all. IF it's accepted that this is wrong..... and I for one actually think it is..... then there needs to be a radical rethink of animal welfare legislation generally. There's a heck of a lot of horses kept with no turn out at all. And not just in cities!

                          Banning them because the city traffic is appalling and impossible to make safe is a logical reason though it begs lots of questions such as:

                          Why can't safer areas be found? What if anything can be done about traffic calming measures?

                          Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
                          And the 3 companies there take very good care of their horses, one place had no turn out at their in town barn, but traded horses out of town a couple times a week, the place I worked for was at what USED to be a slaughter house, and they had about 4 acres of turnout, but also had places out of downtown where they took horses too for vacation.
                          That's how a lot of companies operate in Europe. The horses are trucked into the city for a week or two then back to pasture land and turn out for a few days. IMO that seems like a solution and certainly seems a lot better than the likes of having leisure horses all by themselves in little pipe corals.

                          After the last one, a drunk driver hitting a carriage, and knocking the driver off the carriage. PETA tried to get the city to remove the carriage horses,
                          Seems like a logic..... And a heck of a lot simpler than litigating and imprisoning the drunken prat who thought it was o.k. to drive.

                          Perhaps the PETA representative is a politician in the making.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            UFTemptation What a sensationalistic post and total propaganda movie Shame on you!

                            I'm sorry, I thought the movie was interesting to watch and it was interesting to talk to the guy. I didn't make it, just thought it was an interesting film.

                            Horses and carriages get hit by cars - nearly every time it is the CAR that is the perpetrator. Ask anyone who lives in Amish country.

                            I didn't say it was the horses or carriage drivers fault. I just think that if they kept the horses in Central Park to areas where there is less car traffic, they are putting the horses at less risk of being injured, as we all know horses are unpredictable animals, even the best carriage horses can spook and if they spook and dart in front of a car it can be devestating.

                            You PETA people are a PITA

                            Thanks for implying that I am a PETA person. which I am not at all. Way to jump to conclusions.

                            Do you think horses are not able to deal with rain sleet and snow? Heat and cold? God made them amazingly adaptable and purposeful and useful. They are not hot house flowers.

                            No kidding. I've ridden for a very long time, in rain cold, sleet snow, heat, etc. I just think there is a point where it is too hot and humid to work a horse, as well as too cold. My personal feelings. I don't like to work a horse if it is much below 20 degrees, and if it is way above 90 with a high humidity level I'm not going to ride either. My thoughts.

                            And stable fires are your primary concern? Because they are multi storied My neighbor had an adorable 2 stall barn - ONE level! While she was at work one snowy day her cute little place burned to the ground and both horses - who were snuggled in deep bedding and high end blankies to protect them from a gentle snow fall perished in the blaze. So it happens and there is little a multi storied stable has to do with stable fires - that is just SILLY talk!

                            As I said, stable fires are a scary thing even for regular boarding barns (single level facilities). It can be hard enough to get horses out of a one level facility, but how would YOU get horses out in an emergency from a multiple level facility? I am very sorry about your neighbors horses, and I have known people who have lost barns and horses to fires as well. It is a concern!

                            I don't think banning horses from the city is necessarily necessary. I just would like to see them kept to areas where there is less traffic. Excuse me for having an opinion. There have been other cities around the country that have banned carriage horses. While it may be the CAR's fault (try the driver of the car) some horses get hit, why put the horses at that risk?
                            \"If the rider\'s heart is in the right place, his seat will be independent of his hands.\" ~Piero Santini

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by silver2 View Post
                              I'm pretty sure most of the horses will go to slaughter, which I imagine will ruin their day.

                              And, btw, as far as a pampered show horse only working for an hour a day then being "tucked in" to a stall? That's not nearly enough time spent physically active to keep them fit and healthy. Horses can easily and should imho, work at a slow pace or be outisde moving around for at least several hours per day. Ideally the majority of the day several days per week. It's much better for them in the long run.
                              Why would they automatically go to slaughter, or just thrown in a field? I was commenting as if they would still be in use in some way. Just because they aren't working doesn't mean they won't get attention.
                              https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Last summer, after a concert here in Memphis, I came upon the aftermath of an accident where a car rear-ended a horse-drawn carriage--nobody's fault, it was dark, the street was busy, alchohol was not a factor. It must have happened just 10 minutes before I got there. Thank goodness the horse was ok, but the carriage was demolished and the carriage driver injured and sent to the hospital.

                                The carriage horses here (mostly drafts or draft-crosses) seem to be fairly well-kept in general, but I know the drivers are hired without horse-handling qualifications.

                                Although "picturesque" and fun for tourists, I always am uneasy (for both horses and people) about the potential for accidents.

                                But in no way do I believe that using horses for driving is inherently cruel.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by spaghetti legs View Post
                                    Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.
                                    Well, so, please provide info to support your thoughts. When you say underweight- what was their body score? Ill kept how? Lack of grooming or something else? How, to you, does a horse look miserable? For example- the uninformed might take a horse with its head down and a foot cocked, taking a snooze, as 'looking' miserable. To me, it would look like it was taking a nap. Misery might be more evident in body language when the horse is at work- look in the eyes, position of ears, tail carriage, among other indicators- so do share with us what you saw.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by spaghetti legs View Post
                                      Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.
                                      Certainly not the ones I have seen, or the ones pictured in the news clip.

                                      Can you support this statement with pictures at least?
                                      "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by spaghetti legs View Post
                                        Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.
                                        I have to agree. I've seen many skinny, unkempt horses pulling carriages through the crazy streets of Manhattan.
                                        I think a ban would be a good thing.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Woodland View Post
                                          Certainly not the ones I have seen, or the ones pictured in the news clip.

                                          Can you support this statement with pictures at least?
                                          Someone linked to an entire film and lots of pictures. You said it was propaganda and lies.

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