OMG - Banning Carrages in NYC!!!

[tkhawk]

If the traffic conditions do not permit safe operation of carraiges, that is another issue. Nobody is saying horses should be allowed on the interstate. But at least from the video-they appear to be claiming it as abuse. Now if a certain operator is abusive-fine decertify or something-but why stop the whole thing. It is a lovely experience for people-especially for those who stay primarily in the cities.

[BestHorses]

This issue seems to come and go every few years. I have to agree the time for carriages in NYC has past. I'm sure there are some drivers who love their animals, but it is a pretty miserable existence for those horses.

I used to live and work in NYC and those barns are scary. The horses must be saints to put up with the conditions and daily grind of traffic, pavement, pollution, etc. I always laughed on the hot days when it hit 90 degrees (I think that's the cutoff) and the horses had to stop working. The drivers would run them down the streets back to the stables. It didn't make a lot of sense to me that when you have to stop working because of the heat you'd run home!

I saw the Liam Neeson interview and I couldn't believe he was supporting them staying. I think he said something like "That's their job they don't know any different and they're happy to be there." I feel like the same could be said of those dancing bears. Still doesn't make it right.

[Old Equine Lady]

So if they ban horses in NYC from pulling carriages, then are they going to go after the people who still use horses to pull carriages, wagons and farm equipment too?

[Woodland]

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

What is not to love? A job, good care, a comfy place to sleep, interesting things to see, usefulness, adoring crowds - horses love that stuff! So much better than being locked in a stall 24/7 because you might lose a bell boot or soil your blanket in turn out

And after the carriage horses get the boot, police horses are sure to be next - BEWARE!!!!

[silver2]

So if they ban horses in NYC from pulling carriages, then are they going to go after the people who still use horses to pull carriages, wagons and farm equipment too?

Probably eventers and race stables first. After all those farm horses must have lovely lives, living in a rural area where everything is sunshine and roses and all the animals run free together all the time.

City people drive me nuts sometimes.

[Thomas_1]

AH!! I see you are uninitiated. Welcome to working with NYC politians. Stop expecting logic from them, your sanity is *just* not worth it.

Trust me I'm not so naive. Indeed we have exactly the same sort of breed of politician over here.

Currently putting through law to stop a 60 watt incandescent light bulb!!! whilst all around there's a collapse of the banking system and last week alone there were over 40,000 redundancies announced!

Great ! So we can sit in the dark out of work eating bread and dripping or gruel assured that our politicians have done all within their wit and wherewithall to save the environment and world economy!!! Yeh right

I'd like to lead a lobbying group and get the New York legilsation changed:

BAN CARS - I SAY

They're polluting, noisy, fume producing and dangerous. They kill people frequently. Some of them are dirty and mechanically unsound and shouldn't be on the road. They consume the earth's resources and are environmentally unfriendly. They're often driven by idiots.

BAN CARS AND FORCE THE WHOLE OF NEW YORK BACK TO THE HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE

p.s. Of course all the old cars could be humanely destroyed and the younger ones put out to grass to rust and end their days. No cars would suffer as a result of my radical new legislation.

[Frank B]

Cidiots!

[Drive NJ]

If you wonder where this can lead, I just read an article in the paper about tea houses in Tokyo where you can go and visit with the 14 resident cats at $7 an hour. Seems this city has made it so difficult to own a cat, you have to rent time and order tea etc to spend some time with a real, live critter.

Meanwhile (says the same article) there are hundreds of thousands of strays put down annually in Japan

As Frank said CITIOTS.

People not really connected to animals make dumb laws, banning pets from housing etc.

For those who question the places the horses live... remember there are many ways to keep a horse. If the housing is safe, the food is there and they have good care and a job to do, they probably don't care much if the stalls are tongue in groove paneling, the grillwork is iron and the aisle floor is patterned brick

Remember the tale of the old delivery horse who didn't know what to do with himself when put 'out to pasture' until he created his own job of walking in circles around a tree.

By all means lets enforce the regulations already on the books to weed out the bad companies (much of which has already happened). But lets not put the good companies out of business in the process.

By the way... do all of you stop riding your horses when the temps hit 90? Typically around here, the show goes on.

[twofatponies]

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

No. There are some lovely old barns which are now used as offices of some sort for Parks employees. The horses are housed in old multi-storey buildings (1800s style urban stables) many blocks away from the park.

For that matter the famous riding stable near central park that closed a few years ago was the same - the ground floor of the building was the "arena" (not anywhere near standard arena size, and full of support columns you had to dodge while riding) and the horses walked up steep ramps to the upper floors to their stalls. You could ride over to the park by going several blocks through city traffic, which many people did.

It's not necessarily good or bad, to my mind, I'm just clarifying that it is old-fashioned urban horse keeping, not acres of grass in the park like some imagine.

[BestHorses]

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

The carriages work at Central Park. The horses are "stabled" in buildings (some look like regular apartments/offices on the outside) along the west side up to 1-1.5 miles away. Not far in distance for a horse, but a totally different experience for a horse in traffic on pavement when the cabs are whizzing by inches away. I wonder if the tourists could see the "stables" how many would still think the carriage rides are romantic?

Claremont (the stable that housed the riding horses) was frightening. It was a 3-4 story building that had standing stalls and some box stalls. The horses would travel between floors on plywood ramps that were about 45 degrees - no one was allowed to walk on the ramps - so you'd just catch the horse as it ran down from above. The police horse barn I saw was nice (this was before they were at Chelsea Piers.) It was equal to many public boarding barns with nice stalls and it was clean!

Unless they have tourists to cart around, the carriages wait along the entrance to the park on city streets with their front legs up on the curb and their hind legs in the gutter (uneven about 4-6 inches I'd say.) The Pony Clubber in me says

Are Amish horses subjected to worse? Probably. Are they vital to that way of life? YES! Carriage horses in NYC are vital only to amuse tourists. Not really a necessity in my book. Where do you draw the line with racing, eventing or riding an animal at all? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't want my horses living that life in the city.

Thomas1 I agree with you - there are WAY more important things for politicians to be discussing right now.

Silver2 - you say "City people drive you nuts." as if we have no clue about animals or farm life. I grew up on a farm with beef cattle and horses and chickens - the whole nine yards. Most of the people I knew in the city had moved there from rural parts of the country. It's not as black and white/us and them as certain media outlets want you to believe. Edited to say this applies to all you clever folks saying cidiots as well!

[erinwillow]

Wow.

Well, I guess I need to say it. . .in a perfect world. . .they would have insisted on "horse paths" (hey, they did it for bicycles in some cities) and would have legislated SAFE areas for those good ol' pulling horses... .however, in todays rush rush ME first culture, especially in big cities I think that unless they enforce accomodations like mentioned above, the horses are really NOT in a good situation. That is to say, drivers in cars don't care that there is a lovely working animal in front of them. I'm sure numbers of them have been side swiped and/or hit. It's a mess really. The problem is no one wants to take a thoughtful approach to anything. It's always so black and white: either this or that never any good rulings in between. I was just in Cincinnati, Ohio for the annual USEF / Connemara meeting and there were some lovely carriage horses around. I thought they were beautiful but I couldn't help but notice how maybe I was the only one?? Cars paid them no mind and I truly truly felt very badly.

[tkhawk]

The carriages work at Central Park. The horses are "stabled" in buildings (some look like regular apartments/offices on the outside) along the west side up to 1-1.5 miles away. Not far in distance for a horse, but a totally different experience for a horse in traffic on pavement when the cabs are whizzing by inches away. I wonder if the tourists could see the "stables" how many would still think the carriage rides are romantic?

Claremont (the stable that housed the riding horses) was frightening. It was a 3-4 story building that had standing stalls and some box stalls. The horses would travel between floors on plywood ramps that were about 45 degrees - no one was allowed to walk on the ramps - so you'd just catch the horse as it ran down from above. The police horse barn I saw was nice (this was before they were at Chelsea Piers.) It was equal to many public boarding barns with nice stalls and it was clean!

Unless they have tourists to cart around, the carriages wait along the entrance to the park on city streets with their front legs up on the curb and their hind legs in the gutter (uneven about 4-6 inches I'd say.) The Pony Clubber in me says

Why would you think that makes the horses unhappy? Animals adjust-so do humans. I moved and now live in a studio downtown. I can watch the planes going in to land from my studio. There is a ton of noise. Before this, I was north of LA, beautiful apt, lots of space, remote, beautiful landscaping, lots of open space. it took me one month to adjust and I am now ok. Now if I am locked in in my studio 24/7, I would go crazy. But this is great- a lovely experience. I used to work downtown and commute from the burbs and so this is a new and lovely experience for me.

Horses love a job. As long as they are not stuck in there 24/7-who is to say that they are not happy? They adjust-yes a pasture may be ideal-I have seen so many depressed horses in pasture -all by themselves just standing and staring out, with no one to handle them at all. As long as it not abusive-most horses I know love to work and have a job and adjust remarkably well. A lot of horses do enjoy the company and interaction with humans-as long as it is not abusive.
Why take that away because you are interpreting with your own views.

There is an old saying"One man's meat is another man's poison". It is true. Even with humans, what is a thriving , stimulating experience for one, can drive another insane. So is it with horses-some just may thrive there..

[Sail Away]

Cidiots!

Why are they cidiots? Now city people can't make rules in the city where they live?

[Pat]

By the way... do all of you stop riding your horses when the temps hit 90? Typically around here, the show goes on.

You do understand that if the city DIDN'T put some kind of cap on this, then people would carry on, regardless of the temperature/humidity/air quality?

You do understand that we are talking about NYC, not a show up state? You do understand that if it's 90 degrees in the City, it is also likely to be 95% (or worse) humidity? That the air quality is pretty gross at this point? If some ding dong wants to go jogging in that, it's his problem. The horses don't get a voice in that decision.

Not to mention that when showing you 'work' in rather brief spurts and often have the time to take the horse back to the tent/your trailer in between classes. An average show horse, while actually showing, works for an hour to 90 minutes in a day (interupted by periods of waiting), is then fluffed and folded and tucked in with a big pile of hay, then later he gets a leisurely stroll to eat grass. Heck, some people even bring a generator and run fans in the tents! Apples and oranges.

At Chelsea, I caught my grooms breathing on the thermometer, 'trying to make it 90 so thier horses could stop'. I thought about it for a minute and started to help.

CEC was no prize, but atleast we had some elbow room with the two arenas and a decent breeze off the river when we opened the roll up doors.

[Paragon]

Are Amish horses subjected to worse? Probably. Are they vital to that way of life? YES! Carriage horses in NYC are vital only to amuse tourists. Not really a necessity in my book.

Hmm. I think this is a bit of an excuse. The beliefs of the Amish are still just beliefs, and if we're to believe that certain conditions are unacceptable for horses, it should be across the board. Either it's okay or it isn't. None of this "Well, they really believe it" business.

I know that rural Pennsylvania is different from NYC. I'm merely commenting on the comparison as stated above.

[twofatponies]

Hmm. I think this is a bit of an excuse. The beliefs of the Amish are still just beliefs, and if we're to believe that certain conditions are unacceptable for horses, it should be across the board. Either it's okay or it isn't. None of this "Well, they really believe it" business....

And then we just go down the rabbit hole! Who's to say the Amish aren't right, and God is making a special place in hell for all of us who drive cars & wear the wrong kind of hat? You really can't prove it either way...

[Jealoushe]

Horses love a job. As long as they are not stuck in there 24/7-who is to say that they are not happy? They adjust-yes a pasture may be ideal-I have seen so many depressed horses in pasture -all by themselves just standing and staring out, with no one to handle them at all. As long as it not abusive-most horses I know love to work and have a job and adjust remarkably well. A lot of horses do enjoy the company and interaction with humans-as long as it is not abusive.
Why take that away because you are interpreting with your own views.

I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...

[Beverley]

You'll never convince me that a horse working in a dense city environment has it any worse than the average overfed, overstabled hunter or dressage horse.

I have two points: One is, beware of the unqualified defining what is acceptable or unacceptable use of the horse, because where PETA and HSUS are headed is exactly toward 'you', the horse owner, and they want to define out of existence your right to own and enjoy horses.

The second, related to the first is, once you have laws inappopriately defining 'where' horses are allowed (which is pretty much everywhere except the interstate), then it isn't long before local, then state, governments start saying 'no horses on ANY roads, it's dangerous to people driving cars, pedestrians, hikers, bikers, yada yada yada...' and before you know it, all horses are stuck in arenas.

I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.

[silver2]

I think people being appalled by horses being kept in the city are being totally hypocritical. None of you have dogs in an urban setting? Or indoor cats? That's a completely unnatural life too and often not a lot of fun for the animal. None of you keep your dogs in crates for hours at a time? (which I personally think IS abusive).

These horses get to spend all day outside with people, they probably have a much more enjoyable and interesting life than your average boarded horse that gets ridden 4 times a week and spends most of it's time in a small area. I'm sure they are in much better health and much fitter too. And more importantly, this is their job- expecting working animals to work is NOT abusive in and of itself and it scares me to see people starting to think this way. Will we ban quide dogs next? Talk about an unnatural life!

ETA, yes banning horses from roads is something I can see happening. Right before they ban riding them altogether.

[Paragon]

I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.

VERY well said. I agree entirely.