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Minis - Horses or Ponies?

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  • #21
    There still are people that get twitchy over pony/horse thing. I don't really care I call them all ponies. The idea is for the "perfect" horse in miniature however what horse is perfect. By any other standards other that within the miniature horse section of the horse world they are by definition under 14.2h so therefore a pony. They do have their quirks and issues, but all breeds have some issue. Dwarfism is one that was perpetuated for a long time by breeding the super tiny ones. A lot of minis go back to Bond Tiny Tim and he was confirmed a dwarf. I see a lot of the "puppy' mill type breeders think small and not see the faults within the horse and some don't know what a minimal dwarf is.

    I have a 34" 1/2 fallabella, with falebella blend papers and AMHR papers, he's cute, He's not keeping his action as he matures so I will probably have him gelded. He's nice enough but doesn't really have the it factor, if that makes sense.

    I have an AMHR mare that is a driving fool, that is what she does best, she's a little long in the back but in harness she thinks she's 16h and can do anything. There isnt't any super popular bloodlines in her name except about 3 generations back is Stouts.

    I've got a Buckaroo/rowdy bred gelding, in for driving training, nice horse but didn't need his equipment. Very high headed and can be a bit nervous at times but getting over that.

    Willowwood, if you ever get tired of that cute little black and white one, let me know.

    Karen

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    • #22
      My mom gets seriously peeved when I call her minis ponies. haha They are such cute fuzzballs. Funny thing is one is over 34 inches so I love to point out that it's a pony!

      I was wondering how they can say there isn't pony blood in miniature horses. How could they have bred such a small animal from a "horse" over 14.2? Even if the founding stock was not a pony breed like a Shetland, wouldn't any small "horse" under 14.2 still be considered a pony? Semantics is fun! hee hee

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      • #23
        I consider any member of Equus caballus who is 14.2 hands or less to be a pony, regardless of bloodlines. Purebred Morgans, QHs, Arabs, Andalusians, Lippizans, etc. can all be ponies, even if they don't have any traditional pony breed bloodlines. The only way a Miniature Horse can not be a pony is if its parents are both registered AMHA, but it grew to be over 14.2 hands.
        Stay me with coffee, comfort me with chocolate, for I am sick of love.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Jetiki View Post
          Dwarfism is one that was perpetuated for a long time by breeding the super tiny ones. A lot of minis go back to Bond Tiny Tim and he was confirmed a dwarf.
          Don't lay the blame for dwarfism only at the feet of CM Bond. While he did use Bond Tiny Tim, and a couple of other very small and very questionable stallions, he also gave us horses like Bond Crusader, Bond Snippet, Bond Peppy Power, Bond Chauncy, Bond Cracker Crumble C, Bond A Toy 4 U C, Martin's Buster Bond, Bond Boozer and Bond Little Lucy B.

          Other breeders of yore also used dwarfs. At the time I really don't think they understood what they were dealing with- a true defect and not just poor conformation. The Komokos breeding program was very focused on size and there were some really bad questionable ones that came out of there, but also horses like Komokos Domino Amegio, Komokos Golden Dove, Komkos Little Hussler, Komkos Dark Destroyer, and Komkos Little Bimbo. Dell Teras Lord of the Isles was very, very questionable but again, you cannot discount the massive contribution JC Williams made to the breed.

          It was a different time in Miniature-dom, so I don't believe it's fair to hold breeders who made an unquestionable positive mark on our breed for mistakes we only now are beginning to understand.
          "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

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          • #25
            So, how often does dwarfism raise its ugly head among these revered lines?

            The only mini show I ever went to (Florida), the champion stallion was a dwarf. I sought out the manager and asked about this. She shrugged and said "some judges just want small." I was appalled.

            Some of these modern CDE minis are just astonishing! Covering ground at a clip and never breaking a sweat.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Trotsky View Post
              So, how often does dwarfism raise its ugly head among these revered lines?

              The only mini show I ever went to (Florida), the champion stallion was a dwarf. I sought out the manager and asked about this. She shrugged and said "some judges just want small." I was appalled.
              No one knows. Dwarfism has been an issue with Miniatures for as long as anyone can recall. But it's a very, very badly understood issue. We have at least 2 types of dwarfism and no clear pattern of inheritance. Add into that you can have very, very subtle types of dwarfism (where a horse is just a wee bit "iffy"), and dwarfism that isn't really obvious in foals and takes maturity to reveal itself... we have no tests yet.

              There are cases of foals being born from many generations of totally normal parents on both sides and... dwarf. There are cases of 2 dwarf parents (irresponsibly bred, obviously) producing a totally normal foal. There is no obvious smoking gun. Yet.

              Up until the last 10 years or so dwarfism was NOT discussed. Breeders did NOT discuss dwarf foals they had. Dwarf foals were often disposed of quietly and you NEVER heard about stock that produced a dwarf. Information was NOT shared. It's only been through an intense grassroots movement to finally get a hold of this problem that people are coming forward with their dwarfs, their pedigrees and sharing information. If you want the most up to date info, the person to talk to is John Eberth.

              It's not like dwarfism is this rampant issue and a huge majority of our foals are born this way, but it's obviously also not a rare blue moon occurance. And as an interesting note, dwarfism exists in other breeds- there have been dwarf TBs and Arabians, and even one line of Freisians known to produce dwarfs.


              As for the show, I've heard about garbage like that at unrecognized "back water" shows or "back in the day" sort of things. Was it a recognized show? (AMHA/AMHR?) How long ago was it? Reason I ask is because AMHA and AMHR revoke the papers on dwarfs, so I would be very surprised if you did indeed see a true dwarf at a recognized show in the past 15 or so years.
              "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

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              • #27
                [QUOTE=littleum;3848868]Don't lay the blame for dwarfism only at the feet of CM Bond. While he did use Bond Tiny Tim, and a couple of other very small and very questionable stallions, he also gave us horses like Bond Crusader, Bond Snippet, Bond Peppy Power, Bond Chauncy, Bond Cracker Crumble C, Bond A Toy 4 U C, Martin's Buster Bond, Bond Boozer and Bond Little Lucy B.

                I was only using that one horse as an example I was NOT saying he was the only breeder to do so, excuse me for not stating "For example" in my post. going back to lurkdom.


                Karen

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                • #28
                  The definition of pony and horse being defined not just by the height criteria. Its defined also by its breed and conformation type. At birth a pony has the same proportions as an adult. It is not a long legged animal with higher hindquarters than forehand, as are the foals of horses relative to their size. And particularly ponies have short cannon bones. So whilst the height criteria for a pony is under 14.2 hands, a connemara or norwegian fjord that is over 14.2 is still ALWAYS a pony. Likewise a shetland is always a shetland no matter how large or small it is - though the conformation height standard is just not greater than 42". Shetland have therefore always come from VERY small and up to (and sometimes over) 42"

                  And if a very small shetland is crossed with a welsh section A to produce a VERY small childrens pony that resembles the look of a horse that stands at 34" then its still a pony.

                  In the UK you would never call a pony a miniature horse.

                  Here a miniature horse is such as a falabella or a caspian - with proof of traceable origin, on both sides of Dam and Sire being vital to ensure they are eligible for registration

                  If a pony is small because there's been introduction of such as equine achondroplastic dwarfism or diastrophic dysplasia dwarfism then its a deformed, substandard pony.

                  I have shetland ponies and welsh section A's and some cross breeds that may fall into the category of being miniature horses in America but here they're ponies.

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                  • #29
                    Want to see REALLY scary... Some Mini drivers decided that not only were their Mini's HORSES, but they should press the issue by insisting on competing in the horse driving classes, not pony. Worse yet it was in an area of the country with a lot of warmbloods and Friesians driving so you have the teeny tinies driving around with the big guys, many times just barely up to the axle of the bigger wheeled vehicles. From the drivers I heard talk of it it was rather difficult to see them

                    I always found it 'interesting' that minis measure height at the last hair of the mane, not the top spot on the wither. Frequently it shaves an inch or so off the height.

                    That said, a lot of the CDE VSEs (minis) are very cool ponies and do their job very well. More power to them.

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                    • #30
                      I just think it's insecurity - people who think that ponies are somehow inferior. Or, perhaps only for children. I don't get that, because IMHO ponies are clearly superior.

                      I've been known to call my TB mare a pony.

                      I guess it's my inner child talking.
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                      • #31
                        i call my lot ponies becuase thats what they are
                        they range from 11.2 to 14.2hh at home and one of 15hhs which is classed as a horse
                        debs has the biger ones in her yard from 16 to 17.3hh
                        and a shetland is a shetland pony and can be 10.2hhs but still be a shetland
                        we dont call ponies mini's as i uk we have a variety of pony breeds
                        new forest
                        welsh sections b c
                        dales
                        fell
                        shetland
                        dartmoor
                        exmoor
                        welsh mountian sec A
                        hackney
                        uk and ireland
                        britsh spotted pony
                        connimara
                        highlands
                        common irish cob vareity of sizes colours and not a recognised breed type - to you a drafty

                        horses
                        are hunters
                        tb
                        hackney
                        shires
                        cleveland bays
                        clydesdale
                        suffolk punch
                        welsh d
                        british spotted horse
                        ireland
                        the irish draft

                        note welsh ponies and horses are shown in there natural state ie no mane to be plaited or tail

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
                          horses are ......
                          hackney.......
                          british spotted ......
                          There's hackney and British Spotted ponies too

                          Welsh D are the largest of the native welsh native equids and categorised as a horse "type". Testament to its origins though is it's small neat pony head.

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                          • #33
                            OK, maybe technically and genetically a miniature horse is exactly that, a miniature HORSE. But if it's under 14 hands, it can be called a pony as well.
                            "Pony" is just a blanket term for any equine under 14 hands. I never understood why mini people made such a big stink over it.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by equineartworks View Post
                              Personally I would rather call Dumplin' a pony than a miniature horse. Why? Because the ponies are just beyond cute! Those show miniatures...have you seen some of those pics? They have these demonic looking eyes and deformed looking heads...shudder....

                              Give me my rumply dumply bumply Dumplin'. I call him my tiny pony man and he loves it so that is all I need
                              ...and I still think he is the cutest mini that ever lived! He's my screen saver, just so you know (the pic with the marshmallow whiskers - love it)!
                              Riding: The art of keeping a horse between you and the ground.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by TikiSoo View Post
                                I never understood why mini people made such a big stink over it.
                                Oh, the answer is real simple: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

                                At one time, there was a great difference between the monetary worth. Poopsie The Pony On Every Street Corner would sell for only a tiny fraction of what Bigshot Farms Wonder Creature Of Great Rarity would have buyers lined up around the corner for. Mostly, the only difference was that the latter had an advertising campaign and "investors" -- and the former did not.

                                But like most fads, the "new" has worn off the mini, and now most of them are just Poopsie The Pony On Every Street Corner.
                                Last edited by greysandbays; Feb. 1, 2009, 09:47 AM. Reason: stray word roundup

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by allpurpose View Post
                                  ...and I still think he is the cutest mini that ever lived! He's my screen saver, just so you know (the pic with the marshmallow whiskers - love it)!
                                  Ok...you made my day with that. I honest to God just said to my DH "I really should make some Dumplin' Screensavers for people to download". I kid you not.

                                  I have a huge widescreen slideshow of him on my desktop
                                  I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

                                  Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by equineartworks View Post
                                    Ok...you made my day with that. I honest to God just said to my DH "I really should make some Dumplin' Screensavers for people to download". I kid you not.

                                    I have a huge widescreen slideshow of him on my desktop
                                    Riding: The art of keeping a horse between you and the ground.

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