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Appy people- chance to comment on ApHC relevancy

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  • #41
    Not to deviate from the ApHC discussion, but what I am saying here will hold true for ApHC judging as well. A woman I spoke with the otehr day, who is in her 60's and still showing AQHA horses, commented that she no longer shows in AQHA shows in western pleasure becuase of the ridiculous extreme of those horses with their head to their knees and barely CRAWILING along in some sort of crippled looking gait. This is also true of the app WP classes. We discussed the fact that AQHA STATES that judges must not place these horses, yet they continue to do so. When a horse comes in the class with soem actul forward movement, that is still slow, but moving more freely and pleasantly with a nice level but not peanut roller, head carriage, they get the gate! In the hutner under saddle it is no longer the western horses that jog that win, they DO want the more hunter movement BUT they still want the canter to go OH so slowly, the head to be low the withers etc. As long as judges reward this it will never get better. I would APPLAUD a judge that announced that he could not pin a class becuase ALL of the horses were going against the rules that plainly state that the horse should NOT go like that! I think it would be a hoot!

    I have nothing against a stock type appaloosa. And I cannot say that outcrossing to QH's should be banned, as I outcross to TB's. But I feel that really, for ApHC to declare itself a true breed, they should close the studbooks to all outcrossing. I doubt it will ever happen thoguh
    www.shawneeacres.net

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
      I bred a really gorgeous TB/Appy cross by Waps Millenium and tried to register him with the ApHC. It was not a happy experience. He is a solid dun - no characteristics. After I sent in my registration papers, I received a call from the ApHC telling me that as the horse is a gelding and has no spots or characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him at ApHC shows, so it was "not worth registering him". The horse is now almost 4 years old and doing extremely well for his new young owner and learning to be a hunter/jumper. It really annoyed me that this lovely young horse with great conformation and movement out of a very nice JC registered mare and by a wonderful ApHC stallion is unregistered, and only because he didn't get any of his sire's spots! It seems really silly to me that the ApHC would register a horse with conformation like a wheelbarrow if it had just one characteristic or a few spots, but discourage someone like me from registering their horse.
      THat sounds verys trange to me. As long as both of his parents were registered with ApHC you should have been fine to register him. Of course, for showing in ApHC shows he would have to have gone thru the old CPO program or done the new passport program. I really find it hard to believe they discouraged you, it is more money in their pocket if you register an NC (non-characteristic) horse. I have registered NC horses before that were 1/2 TB by stallions other than my own and never received such a "phone call".
      www.shawneeacres.net

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
        I bred a really gorgeous TB/Appy cross by Waps Millenium and tried to register him with the ApHC. It was not a happy experience. He is a solid dun - no characteristics. After I sent in my registration papers, I received a call from the ApHC telling me that as the horse is a gelding and has no spots or characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him at ApHC shows, so it was "not worth registering him". The horse is now almost 4 years old and doing extremely well for his new young owner and learning to be a hunter/jumper. It really annoyed me that this lovely young horse with great conformation and movement out of a very nice JC registered mare and by a wonderful ApHC stallion is unregistered, and only because he didn't get any of his sire's spots! It seems really silly to me that the ApHC would register a horse with conformation like a wheelbarrow if it had just one characteristic or a few spots, but discourage someone like me from registering their horse.

        That's very odd. Since I've never had an un-colored App, it's not something I've dealt with, but if his sire is Wap's Millenium (who is ApHC reg., isn't he?), you should be able by blood/DNA typing and/or inspection get him CPO'd, I would think. I may not be correct on the intricacies of CPO-ing, but I think it might be possible. But WHY bother? Unless you REALLY want to show at breed shows (surely not!! ROFLOL!!) One reason for registry WOULD be the ACAAP program - points for reg. Apps showing open, or if you were into dressage. Not sure whether ApSHA is moribund or active, but you could contact them. Since his sire is reg. App - I believe - they might accept him. You still couldn't show at breed shows, but believe me, it's no loss.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by shawneeAcres View Post
          THat sounds verys trange to me. As long as both of his parents were registered with ApHC you should have been fine to register him. Of course, for showing in ApHC shows he would have to have gone thru the old CPO program or done the new passport program. I really find it hard to believe they discouraged you, it is more money in their pocket if you register an NC (non-characteristic) horse. I have registered NC horses before that were 1/2 TB by stallions other than my own and never received such a "phone call".
          I was surprised by the call too. You'd think they'd be happy to take my money. I think unfortunately, that many registries are run in a very unprofessional manner. IMHO color should not matter. An appy is so much more than his spots!

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
            Woodland you stupid comments thing made me remember my appy show experience.

            I use my boy for hunters. Not appy hunters. Hunter hunters. So he does not peanut roll and shuffle and we do not do wenglish.

            I was riding in an ammy adult equitation under saddle class. In line up one of the judges (there were four) came up to me and told me she loved my leg and hands. She said something about never having seen such a still leg and that I looked great on my horse. I was happy, I was thinking I might actually get a good ribbon. Noper, placed last under every judge. I asked her as I was leaving and I was told we just went too fast. Too fast? We were slugging along at barely sitting trot speed at the posting trot. But we were not jogging in our English tack so yeah, I guess we were too fast.
            God that is sad! I am a stickler for correct seat and leg and proper hands in EQ along with a perfectly executed pattern. The "too fast" comment is something I hear when ever we take our horses that cross over from hunters to breed/open/4H shows. And then it comes back when we take a traditional looking stock horse to Hunters, that we are "too slow".

            When you read the rule books for USEF, ApHC, 4H(varies by State acceptance), AQHA, USHJA - they all contain references to correctness of gait. However there are no "rules" that I am aware of that say you can only go say "X" per hour at this gait like canter at 15MPH or jog at 3 MPH. A horse must go in a manner appropriate for his size and conformation and suited to the ability that the class demands.

            I know that in order to win at various levels we have had to train our horses to have multiple speeds at all three gaits. Frankly it makes them exceptional at patterns. When you have at 16.3hh OTTB that really is a "B" hunter but must do the deal for the 4H fair we make sure his training includes schooling for on rail presentation and looking fabulous while doing it. "blending in" but standing out! It is hard work! I have a DD who owns an OTTB she barrel races who is HOT but had to learn to be rail fabulous for HUS and EQ at the 4H fair because i can not afford a horse for every event for her.

            Too me it is part of the competition to form my training horses in to competitors that can compete at ApHC Nationals and Hunters. To be the rodeo barrel horse and the rail fabulous 4H horse. To be like my own dear "A" hunter a recovering top ten N/H halter horse now the hunter extraordinary - yet he still won the 4H halter and showmanship for DD at the 4H show. He is a lot of beefcake I just wish he had spots(he is AQHA). It takes an effort on the part of the competitor to meet the standard - even if it varies from their normal comfort zone. The horses thrive on the challenge!

            I had a big OTTB gray horse here years ago. He was a solid "B" hunter. When we hit the hunter shows we trained him to go more up headed and forward. When my student hit the open/4H shows we trained him to go long and low(which was really his natural way of going). It was a fun challenge. We knew that different arenas posed different challenges. And we rose to meet them. Yeah, at first I was all pious and not going to train him to be any different than how he was already trained. I was a bit of a snob about it. Then I had an epiphany. What if it was possible to be at all levels? It was an experiment. It was so much fun to see what he could do. The rider was the same - except learning to display the abilities of her horse in each setting. But she was SMART! She is such a great rider to this day. The fact that this horse had the ability to meet multiple levels of performance was inspiring! Now it is normal to train that way here at my farm. Knowing that I am not "damaging" their training but enhancing it.

            I am OT - sorry - but this is relevant. As all breeder, trainers and riders become inflexible when we are confronted by something foreign to us. As I was attempting to bridge a gap for a student I had to confront my own stubborn beliefs in my way or the high way in order to grow as a trainer.

            The ApHC is no different. It is a small stubborn group. The inflexibility even as out lined on this very thread shows there is perhaps to far to go to be a viable association.

            I may not always agree with them but i maintain my activity and membership. I believe in the Appaloosa too much to bail out now! I am no longer active AQHA(an it is over the APHA thing for me) however I maintain my membership because i own several. However they have "jumped the shark " so permanently they can never go back. ApHC STILL has the ability to get this right!
            "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
              I was surprised by the call too. You'd think they'd be happy to take my money. I think unfortunately, that many registries are run in a very unprofessional manner. IMHO color should not matter. An appy is so much more than his spots!

              AGREED!!!
              "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
                I bred a really gorgeous TB/Appy cross by Waps Millenium and tried to register him with the ApHC. It was not a happy experience. He is a solid dun - no characteristics. After I sent in my registration papers, I received a call from the ApHC telling me that as the horse is a gelding and has no spots or characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him at ApHC shows, so it was "not worth registering him". The horse is now almost 4 years old and doing extremely well for his new young owner and learning to be a hunter/jumper. It really annoyed me that this lovely young horse with great conformation and movement out of a very nice JC registered mare and by a wonderful ApHC stallion is unregistered, and only because he didn't get any of his sire's spots! It seems really silly to me that the ApHC would register a horse with conformation like a wheelbarrow if it had just one characteristic or a few spots, but discourage someone like me from registering their horse.
                what a silly phone call from ApHC - puzzling even! all you need is one of these:

                http://www.appaloosa.com/registratio...nce-permit.htm
                "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                Comment


                • #48
                  Woodland, I absolutely hear what you are saying about teaching the horse to perform in different ways (and good for you), but DAMN!!! WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO TEACH MY HORSE TO GO INCORRECTLY TO WIN RIBBONS AT A BREED SHOW?? The standards should be the SAME in the English divisions - open or breed, but they are not. Judging such classes will always be "one person's opinion" whether open or breed, but the standards should be the same. The breed shows STILL accommodate the, "I'll just fling a forward seat saddle on my WP horse and call him a hunter. We'll do "extended" jog for the trot.....". (most times, not even that!) AAARGGH!!!

                  (and most of the pics in Journal ads for HUS horses - the RIDING! Too short (or waaay too long) stirrups for a flat class - and on horses that mostly never jump, puppy paw hand position, totally slack rein, rider tipped forward and perched. George Morris would have a cow!!)

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    WOW - it's getting hot here -

                    http://forum.horsetopia.com/breeding...sa-debate.html
                    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
                      Woodland, I absolutely hear what you are saying about teaching the horse to perform in different ways (and good for you), but DAMN!!! WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO TEACH MY HORSE TO GO INCORRECTLY TO WIN RIBBONS AT A BREED SHOW?? The standards should be the SAME in the English divisions - open or breed, but they are not. Judging such classes will always be "one person's opinion" whether open or breed, but the standards should be the same. The breed shows STILL accommodate the, "I'll just fling a forward seat saddle on my WP horse and call him a hunter. We'll do "extended" jog for the trot.....". (most times, not even that!) AAARGGH!!!

                      (and most of the pics in Journal ads for HUS horses - the RIDING! Too short (or waaay too long) stirrups for a flat class - and on horses that mostly never jump, puppy paw hand position, totally slack rein, rider tipped forward and perched. George Morris would have a cow!!)

                      Agreed! However GM doesn't ride apps, or GV's, or saddlebreds.

                      The stirrup thing drives me NUTS!!!! And LOUSY hands - YIKES! It's total lack of informed educated judging that makes this crap acceptable. The judges must be better trained! And that is a problem in every jaundra(I think I spelled this wrong - )!

                      And the for the first part I agree wholeheartedly. However What we consider "correct" is not what others perceive as "correct". I can not change everyone. Trying to is frustrating! However I can make an effort to bring a performance level from my horses that can make him better, make me and my riders better, and bring us some much needed fun!

                      My beliefs lie in the Centered Riding old school - marrying a QH guy was a big change for me. Imagine having a DD that is a can chaser - my whole horse life is a conundrum! But it's never boring!
                      "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Woodland I do agree with you to some degree.

                        I went to this appy show just to get my horse into the ring that the show was in really. I had no plans to place well. I was not trying to truly show that circuit.
                        What was frustrating was being told I was good and then get last. It was an EQ class and she told me I had the best EQ.

                        Secretariat2, I too am shocked by what you posted. My appy is a solid totally not characteristic buckskin out of two colored papered horses. He went thru the CPO program and I am able to show him appy if I so desire.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Not that it would do any good, but I suppose one could point out that the regular H/J people have been doing it for a LOT longer than ApHC/APHA/AQHA and therefore MIGHT have an idea of what constitutes correct Hunter performance. But I know what you mean. I just have to keep my mouth shut even at my local club meetings, because we have a whole bunch of people who do halter and/or show at the Worlds and Nationals in HUS, among other things, and I sure don't want to alienate them all by telling them that the way their horses perform is NOT correct. When we're selected judges for our open shows, I'm squirming and gritting my teeth when they propose carded ApHC judges and try my damnedest to get decent non-AQHA/non ApHC judges. The last time they used an ApHC judge, even our show manager admitted they had more complaints about him than for any other judge they'd ever used.

                          LOL However, whenever I've shown against our World and National competitors in OPEN shows - I'm usually the one who wins. ;0)

                          An aside, just for amusement: Don't you love GM's critiques in the PH jumping forums when he just HAS to mention that someone's mount looks "spooky" - and it's an Appy?!? COME ON GEORGE! You're an experienced horseman. Surely, by your mid-60s (if not older?), you MUST know that white sclera is NORMAL for an Appy and does not indicate spookiness.

                          (I think you mean "genre.")

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Secretariat2, I too am shocked by what you posted. My appy is a solid totally not characteristic buckskin out of two colored papered horses. He went thru the CPO program and I am able to show him appy if I so desire.
                            The person never mentioned the CPO program. If I had known about it, I would probably have pursued it and it was this person's job to tell me about it. I clearly remember the woman saying that if I registered the horse with no characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
                              The person never mentioned the CPO program. If I had known about it, I would probably have pursued it and it was this person's job to tell me about it. I clearly remember the woman saying that if I registered the horse with no characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him.
                              How long ago was this?

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Woodland View Post
                                Jeez, and I thought I had something to say! Well, they're certainly giving Eastwest a run for the money for his/her stubbornness in holding to the party line. That's nice to see. I'd love to know whose idea it was at the top to stir up this hornet's nest.

                                It's nice to see I'm not alone in being ticked off with the ApHC.
                                "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

                                http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                  How long ago was this?
                                  2005.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Secretariat2 View Post
                                    2005.
                                    If I am not mistaken, in 2005 you could NOT show solids. The CPO program was phased out and then a big stink was made of it and the passport (permit??) program came into effect after that point, but there was a couple years that solids could not be shown ApHC (they could however do ACAAP)
                                    www.shawneeacres.net

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by shawneeAcres View Post
                                      If I am not mistaken, in 2005 you could NOT show solids. The CPO program was phased out and then a big stink was made of it and the passport (permit??) program came into effect after that point, but there was a couple years that solids could not be shown ApHC (they could however do ACAAP)
                                      Really?

                                      I thought it was a time that if you bred a papered appy to a one of the approved breeds and got a solid it could not be registered (that was short lived) but I have never heard anything that has ever said that if you get a solid out of an appy to appy breeding you can not register and show it.

                                      I must have missed that tid bit.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Shawnee - The CPO program has certainly been around longer than since 2005, hasn't it? When I purchased the horse in my profile pic - a foal of 1986 - he was almost five, and at the time I arrived to look at him for the first time, the breeder was late in meeting me because he'd taken a foal by his stallion out of a "barely roan" mare to an inspection to be CPO'd. So we're talking 1991 or thereabouts. And certainly, the Journal has been full of successful mostly QH "Appies" showing successfully for a lot more than three years (aaargh!) . Now the transition to passports and the like, that I'm not up on - or perhaps I'm misreading and it is the passports business you're talking about beginning in 2005? I showed in the late 80s against solids, I know.
                                        Last edited by Sandy M; Jan. 29, 2009, 04:29 PM.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          CPO was scraped and then resurrected as a Performance Permit - I posted the link to it above.

                                          It sucked to have a solid even app x app solid and have no ability to show or breed it! It was like the dinosaur days all over again!

                                          LOL on GM - Sally Swift HATED my AQHA mare back in the 80's partially because she had a white scalera and Miss Swift was certain she was "untrustworthy" That horse was as rock solid a horse as I have ever owned! She always referred to her as "that short strided spook of a cow pony". The mare was AQHA, she was only 15.2 had never seen a cow and well I suppose she was short strided compared to the 17hh WB's on her place. She never spooked ever though -
                                          "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

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