Appy people- chance to comment on ApHC relevancy

[Sandy M]

I bookmarked that blog and the last entry seems to be mine, but several of you say you've commented. Are they deleting negative comments? Strange. They didn't delete mine, and it certainly isn't positive to ApHC's viewpoint.

[rainechyldes]

I didn't comment on the blog. But I think one who posted here, on(forget who) said she did comment and her comment is now 'gone' from the blog.

[naters]

I grew up with Appaloosas, but haven't owned them for more than 35 years. I recently (a couple of years ago) went surfing on the net to see what was out there, and wow, it is appalling to me. The winning ApHC horses no longer resemble what I grew up with. What a shame that the QH folks have taken it over. I can remember when the breed was very versatile and encouraged to be so, and you could only get "pink papers" on horses that were solid, but no permanent papers unless they at least displayed Appy characteristics such as striped hooves, mottled skin, white sclera to name a few. I know it was a reason to celebrate when the occasional solid baby shed out and started showing a few white spots or roaning...no one wanted a solid Appy! I don't think I'd own one now, unless I could find one that compared to those tough cookies that I grew up on. I don't want a QH with spots (or not). I guess a lot of the new Appy people (last couple of decades) really don't know the difference if that's all they've ever seen.

I know all breeds have their problems, with Arabs it's the halter vs form-to-function too, with influential people who think Arabians are supposed to have long thin necks and smashed in faces and long backs to compensate for the neck, plus flat croups instead of relatively horizontal, and so forth. We won't even get into the horrid legs on a breed that used to be lauded as the best to improve other breeds, when the judges don't look past the head, neck and topline. The rest of us want that well-conformed athletic gentle beast that can do whatever you ask, with legs that last all day long, and look good doing it. Again, all breeds seem to have a problem with the halter vs performance, but it all boils down to a lack of knowledge and good horsemanship to me, which is sadly going downhill in our modern world. IMNSHO.

I was just thinking that what happened to the Apps was the same thing that happened to the QH.

The QH used to be a great breed, because different QHs could all do different things. They had english ones, racing ones, western ones, etc.

Now they just have one horse, that wears different tack.

[naters]

First of all, there's a problem with figuring out what they are good to be used for and sticking to it, as many of the competitors whose horses didn't fit into the ApHC proved by pioneering them into in high level competition in disciplines governed by other associations. That's the whole point. They are not just good for what the ApHC focuses on. When you have a patterned app win at Devon, win at eventing, win at combined driving and at national dressage shows, and not receive even a mention in the club publication, you have more than a PR problem. Isn't it ironic that these horses, who once had to show with the ApHC because they could never expect to pin in the same ring as TB's and other top athletic performers at open shows, are now winning in these open shows and events, and are now shunned in the same classes by their own club? The club forgot the versatility of the horse when they allowed the breeders to pigeon-hole them into focusing on western and hunt classes, and now they are paying the price for it with a seriously eroded base and general disgust for it within the appy owner ranks.

I think that people leaving the ApHC is the best thing that can happen for the appaloosa. Let the horses succeed in dressage and eventing and combined driving and in all of the other major venues that once shunned horses of color. Let the horse be crossed with wonderful Warmbloods and thoroughbreds, high class Arabians, Friesians, and other horses of breeds with good conformation and pedigrees that are not popular with the ApHC but have produced excellent athletes. Get rid of the doll heads and the tiny feet, the navicular, the Hypp, the 4-beat canter and the peanut rolling garbage that the AQHA has left strewn in its wake. And let them succeed in large, public venues where the rules are easy to understand, the judging is not so heavily predicated on lazy QH judges who only want to look for movement on solid or near-solid colored horses. I mean, really, if a colored App can win at Devon, he sure as heck should be able to win at an ApHC breed show.

Can I borrow your statements here and send them to AQHA? You eloquently said what I have been thinking for years.

[shawneeAcres]

I have an appaloosa sport horse type stallion that is registered with ApHC. I prefer the "sport type" and feel that it is not impossible to create this WITHOUT the influence of WB breeding. I am proud my horse is an "all american" breed of horse, he carries a good bit of TB blood, but I consider him american NOT a european WB, even though many people ahve commented that he moves as if he has WB in him (and they ahve often asked me waht type of WB his is crossed with). I looked long and hard for a homozygous (so as to produce the app color) Sport type app stallion. We have significantly reduced breeding the past two years, i.e. bred NO mares at all. But I will keep him a stallion and we may breed 1 or 2 of our own mares this year, and if anyone outside wants a breeding we will do a few. He is SO SO versatile, he has done hunters, some jumpers, dressage, evented and is now driving. I did show some in ApHC shows and I also enrolled some of my apps and won year end ACAAP awards. I think ACAAP is an outstanding progrma and would like to see more programs that allow the ApHC app to show it's versatility. Although two of my apps qualified for the 2004 world show we did not go, and I have shown ApHC only a few times since then. I too get disgusted when a "halter" type horse goes in and beats my gorgeous moving, sport type apps in the hutner in hand! It makes me scratch my head and ask what the H*LL are they doing! I mean if you MUST have halter horses, keep them in the traditional western halter classes and let the more sport/hunter types wil in the hunter in hand! As long as the judges reward this sort of thing, it will continue, AND I would suggest that the judges begin to learn more about different disciplines. OK so much for my two cents worth!

[Sandy M]

I too get disgusted when a "halter" type horse goes in and beats my gorgeous moving, sport type apps in the hutner in hand! It makes me scratch my head and ask what the H*LL are they doing! I mean if you MUST have halter horses, keep them in the traditional western halter classes and let the more sport/hunter types wil in the hunter in hand! As long as the judges reward this sort of thing, it will continue, AND I would suggest that the judges begin to learn more about different disciplines. OK so much for my two cents worth!

Oh, Lordy, do I remember showing my 16.3 eventer, and my 16.2 TB type Appy (the one in my profile) in "Dressage Suitability" and placing 5th out of 6 (or not at all) against horses that would give Poco Bueno a run for the money in the "bulldog" category. I recently did an open schooling show, but the judge was carded with AQHA and ApHC. He had NO IDEA what to do with my horse in an "English Halter" class - I mean, he's 16.2, and has Appy coloring, but he moves BIG and floaty. Heavens! What could that be? It looks like an App, BUT...it doesn't look like a stock horse. So he placed a 15.1 hand cowpony that had about a 6 inch stride 1st as a suitable "English" horse. Uh-huh. (Oh and that horse was a CPO, FWIW - LOL- at least 3/4 QH).

A dear old friend, now fallen on hard times, DID win "Dressage Suitability- Stallions" some years back at either the World or National show when they actually used USEF/ASHA DRESSAGE judges for the class, but of course, that meant the regular circuit horses, i.e., stock horses, DIDN'T win, whereupon ApHC decided that a quickie seminar (or nothing at all) was sufficient for ApHC judges to judge "dressage suitability." Yeah. Riiiiiight. Hilda Gurney and Hubert Rorher (sp?) were less qualified than ApHC judges, apparently. So they then evaded the whole question by dropping Dressage Suitability and now calling it hunter in hand, but they don't judge THAT correctly either. Where's the Head/Desk icon when you really need it?!?!?!?

[Jingo-ace]

appys

I too have a 16.2 hand redroan appy mare. I am a lifetime member of
the Appaloosa Horse Club. I have OVER 3,500 HOURS in their frequent
rider program (whatever it is called now.) My horses don't show app
because they won't even place. I can show open and do well, but get
slammed at the breed shows, plus most of the breed shows don't have
any colored horses. You attend a breed show and look around and see
no colored horses and wonder if you've mistakenly attended a quarter
horse show. The trope & the wog aren't gaits on my horses. I'd rather
spend my money elsewhere. I love my appy horses, and will always
have good ones to ride, but the breed organization sucks!
Just IMHO, J

[shawneeAcres]

Oh, Lordy, do I remember showing my 16.3 eventer, and my 16.2 TB type Appy (the one in my profile) in "Dressage Suitability" and placing 5th out of 6 (or not at all) against horses that would give Poco Bueno a run for the money in the "bulldog" category. I recently did an open schooling show, but the judge was carded with AQHA and ApHC. He had NO IDEA what to do with my horse in an "English Halter" class - I mean, he's 16.2, and has Appy coloring, but he moves BIG and floaty. Heavens! What could that be? It looks like an App, BUT...it doesn't look like a stock horse. So he placed a 15.1 hand cowpony that had about a 6 inch stride 1st as a suitable "English" horse. Uh-huh. (Oh and that horse was a CPO, FWIW - LOL- at least 3/4 QH).

A dear old friend, now fallen on hard times, DID win "Dressage Suitability- Stallions" some years back at either the World or National show when they actually used USEF/ASHA DRESSAGE judges for the class, but of course, that meant the regular circuit horses, i.e., stock horses, DIDN'T win, whereupon ApHC decided that a quickie seminar (or nothing at all) was sufficient for ApHC judges to judge "dressage suitability." Yeah. Riiiiiight. Hilda Gurney and Hubert Rorher (sp?) were less qualified than ApHC judges, apparently. So they then evaded the whole question by dropping Dressage Suitability and now calling it hunter in hand, but they don't judge THAT correctly either. Where's the Head/Desk icon when you really need it?!?!?!?

You wouldnt be talking about Tudors Diamond Jm would you???? He is the sire of my stallion if so, and won Dressage suitability under Hilda Gurney at the world show back then! He also won MANY MANY breeding shows against WB's

[Sandy M]

You wouldnt be talking about Tudors Diamond Jm would you???? He is the sire of my stallion if so, and won Dressage suitability under Hilda Gurney at the world show back then! He also won MANY MANY breeding shows against WB's

Yes. A friend of mine even handled Diamond for Billie at Cow Palace back in the late '80s, early 90s, before they dropped the Appy division.

Are you aware Billie is in bad shape? - she's giving away all her horses, Diamond, three sons of his - one older, the other two under 10- and several mares. Offering one year or six month lease, with full title at the end of that time. She just can't manage it any more. I think she's 80-ish. Our local club (E Wa Tom Lih Kinh) is investigating the group that is trying to help Billie and will probably contribute hay and/or money until homes are found for the horses. I don't have the contact information handy, but I could probably get it for you. I looked at the younger stallions a few years back, but decided I didn't want to take on a 3 year old unstarted stallion (instead I took on a 2.5 year old unstarted gelding - LOL). Now I feel guilty. It was obvious then that she was struggling - wanting to sell them then, now giving them away....

[shawneeAcres]

Yes. A friend of mine even handled Diamond for Billie at Cow Palace back in the late '80s, early 90s, before they dropped the Appy division.

Are you aware Billie is in bad shape? - she's giving away all her horses, Diamond, three sons of his - one older, the other two under 10- and several mares. Offering one year or six month lease, with full title at the end of that time. She just can't manage it any more. I think she's 80-ish. Our local club (E Wa Tom Lih Kinh) is investigating the group that is trying to help Billie and will probably contribute hay and/or money until homes are found for the horses. I don't have the contact information handy, but I could probably get it for you. I looked at the younger stallions a few years back, but decided I didn't want to take on a 3 year old unstarted stallion (instead I took on a 2.5 year old unstarted gelding - LOL). Now I feel guilty. It was obvious then that she was struggling - wanting to sell them then, now giving them away....

I had heard she had health problems. Really don't personally know her, I bought my stallion from a guy in Idaho that had bred his mare to Diamond and actually I think he may have known her pretty well. If she wasn't in CA and me in NC I'd look into it, but the cost of shipping would be far too much! I definitely don't need another stallion, but if she were closer I'd consider a mare. I also have a mare that is by DIamonds TB sire, Royal Roan Tudor. That is why I bought my stallion, she is a phenomenal mover. We did a little line breeding "experiment" and she produced a lovely filly that is now three and VERY big, wills tart her under saddle in February.

[Sandy M]

I had heard she had health problems. Really don't personally know her, I bought my stallion from a guy in Idaho that had bred his mare to Diamond and actually I think he may have known her pretty well. If she wasn't in CA and me in NC I'd look into it, but the cost of shipping would be far too much! I definitely don't need another stallion, but if she were closer I'd consider a mare. I also have a mare that is by DIamonds TB sire, Royal Roan Tudor. That is why I bought my stallion, she is a phenomenal mover. We did a little line breeding "experiment" and she produced a lovely filly that is now three and VERY big, wills tart her under saddle in February.

Ah. I see. Diamond is a lovely horse, and I knew his sire, Royal Roan Tudor, when he was a steel grey 3 year old. Lovely horse with an extraordinary temperament (as has Diamond).

Talk about small world. I have a friend who used to event and now shows dresage in NC. She lives near Charlotte - is that your neighborhood. I usually visit her every other year.

[shawneeAcres]

Ah. I see. Diamond is a lovely horse, and I knew his sire, Royal Roan Tudor, when he was a steel grey 3 year old. Lovely horse with an extraordinary temperament (as has Diamond).

Talk about small world. I have a friend who used to event and now shows dresage in NC. She lives near Charlotte - is that your neighborhood. I usually visit her every other year.

I agree that the temperament of these hroses is remarkable. And they truly love people. My stallion just adjusts to whatever we throw at him! I had been wanting to get into driving and my farrier has trained numerous national champion morgan, hackney and saddlebred driving hroses, so I sent Sparky to him right before Christmas. Within ONE WEEK he was driving him all over the place!! See pics here:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/569512368UkIGtO

and video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwteXBAZfB0

I am not however, near Charlotte, about four hours east near Wilson, NC. But if you ever get this way you should come and meet Sparky he is truly a gem of a stallion!!

[Sandy M]

Lovely horse, and a snowcap/few spot, to boot! Lucky you!!

Sandy and

Mark (Confetti's Magic Marker/Aul Magic (AHA) x Confetti's Red Rose)
and
Erik (Viking Grog) (Viking Prince x Hard Bounce)

[shawneeAcres]

Lovely horse, and a snowcap/few spot, to boot! Lucky you!!

Sandy and

Mark (Confetti's Magic Marker/Aul Magic (AHA) x Confetti's Red Rose)
and
Erik (Viking Grog) (Viking Prince x Hard Bounce)

Yes he is a true snowcap, that was one of my 'prerequisites" although i know many apps with no color (that are NOT QH bred). i wanted his foals to be known to be apps! He has produced color on everything. Thanks for the nice words, wish I could help Billy out, but I will spread the word

[Chief2]

Can I borrow your statements here and send them to AQHA? You eloquently said what I have been thinking for years.

Be my guest, but don't expect them to listen to you. It's like spitting into the wind.

ShawneeAcres, love that horse! Beautiful boy! Love your signature statement as well!

[Woodland]

I think it comes back to Identity. The ApHC spent considered effort trying be the APHA who is really the AQHA and as I said the reason I no longer breed AQHA.

There were several larger breeders who wanted a stock horse type ApHC. In a big way there was an ascetically pleasing change in prettier heads, nicer neck tie ins and length and a better croup. It did not stop there and by not regulating the out crosses the ApHC horses in some instances became more AQHA than ApHC.

That was a leadership issue and I think they have made great strides in changing breeding policy to make the breed more wholesome again.

It takes GENERATIONS to make a new breed. And A "Recovered" breed must OWN where it came from. Calling something a percentage of foundation does not make it pure! It alludes that it does not need to own what breeds it came from. I think that is snobbish and silly.

The Indian shuffle in my araapp can be found a ways back in his pedigree to a horse of TWH parentage. Even though he is 6 gens ApHC on Momma's side, Daddy was an Arab and Momma's back ground - a ways back - is TWH. Momma is a 86% foundation mare that is really a combination of app, arab, QH, STB, PERCHERON and TWH. Where is the freaking "purity" there??? 86% of MUTT!!!!!!

In the 60's, 70's and early 80's I owned a smattering of ApHC and HATED THEM! Jug headed, thick minded, rat tailed crappola. My Uncle use to say "You can't even train them with a billy club". That I think was due to all the draft blood a ways back. Of course admittedly i do not care for any draft breed. And no longer allow them as boarders here on my farm.

Now head forward to the late 1980's when I received a Mighty Bright bred mare into my training program. She was to be preped for the show season. WOW!!! What a mare! Totally changed my idea of the ApHC. Once I went to the shows i could see that the breed was evolved past the "homely beginnings" stage. Heck EVERY new/recovered breed goes through it!

And I feel strongly that the ApHC is still trying to know who it is and where it is headed. Going back to it's inception it is really a very young and very small breed that had dreams of being BIG. And to get BIG it made some bad choices.

At the time I was reintroduced to the ApHC we were breeding AQHA. With the exception of one foundation AQHA mare we purchased in foal to a "foundation" ApHC we decided to stay away from breeding ApHC. The breeding program was too open to be stable. So we bought what we wanted and have been happy with that.

Now judging. I am a carded judge in many associations. Sometimes I am juding an OPEN show and find myself confronted with something I have limited knowledge of. Gaited breeds, certain driving classes, mini classes, draft horses, etc. Where I know I take great pains to be prepared, usually you are trained and carded to judge apples against oranges. Then someone brings a pineapple or a kumkwat to the show and you have to do the best you can with the training you have. I don't think any BREED judge should be under educated. If a class is offered such as Suitability now HIH then the judge out to darn well know what he/she is looking for! But it happens all the time.

Do not fault the breed because of a handful or even one judge is uneducated! I have had judges tell me all manner of STUPID things: I can not judge a pony against horses in a WT 8 & under class, I don't place riders who wear pink, If you are not showing in a Dale Chavez i can not take you seriously, I can not use a gray, you wore gloves that did not compliment your outfit(yellow with black gloves - could not find the yellow ones but nailed the pattern perfectly), You saddle pad does not stand out, You had your number pinned to your back and not to your pad. I prefer the pad, You name it - stupid people always say stupid things. Do Not hold the ApHC responsible for those idiots!

Instead take the time to participate in the discussion and in action to make the breed better! DON'T breed stupidly. Do use conformation, long term plan and ability over color and bloodlines. Don't be a bloodline/color snob it is too limiting and leaves out to many good horses in this fragile breed.

Be inclusive - ApHC is an "everybody's " breed it needs to be! When you start excluding you perpetuate the end of it.

Again I believe the ApHC must set a course of who it is and not try to be the APHA(really AQHA). It must remember that it is not all about foundation breeding or being a color only breed. The Appy is hardy and trainable and fun and able and can have outstanding unusual color.

[trubandloki]

Woodland you stupid comments thing made me remember my appy show experience.

I use my boy for hunters. Not appy hunters. Hunter hunters. So he does not peanut roll and shuffle and we do not do wenglish.

I was riding in an ammy adult equitation under saddle class. In line up one of the judges (there were four) came up to me and told me she loved my leg and hands. She said something about never having seen such a still leg and that I looked great on my horse. I was happy, I was thinking I might actually get a good ribbon. Noper, placed last under every judge. I asked her as I was leaving and I was told we just went too fast. Too fast? We were slugging along at barely sitting trot speed at the posting trot. But we were not jogging in our English tack so yeah, I guess we were too fast.

[Sandy M]

I DO hold ApHC responsible. ApHC judges are not USEF carded (ditto AQHA - which is what most of the ApHC judges are), they are carded by ApHC, and it's not a handful, it's MOST of them. Once a good ApHC judge wrote an article for the "Journal" about HUS horses. The article was good, her statement about what was correct for an HUS horse accorded with open showing. The JOURNAL then illustrated the article with a picture of a HUS peanut roller. The judge had to write them a letter with a DRAWING to show proper HUS horse, because OBVIOUSLY they didn't have a single picture of a horse performing correctly.

I see NO effort on the part of ApHC to deviate from the "let's turn our horses into Quarter Horses without color" line. You are defending the indefensible.

My first (and best) eventer was a straight Toby bred horse by Toby K. He was stocky, but not stock horse. Blue roan, huge blanket, peacock spots, etc. Short legged for his height (15.3+). PLAIN head w/slightly roman nose, upside down neck (that was training not conformation), relatively full tail (Toby horses tend to have good tails - rat tail is NOT universal among Foundation blood). The most trainable and kind horse I ever owned, super jumper. Second eventer was huge, but traced to Red Eagle and Old Painter. 16.3hh, bay roan with blanket with spots, huge ears, plain head - another terrific jumper and extremely trainable - eventer, H/J, dressage horse (though he didn't like THAT all that much), REINER, working cow horse, trail horse, etc. Are therer ugly Appies out there that are PITA's. Absolutely. I think most of them are on rent string - but some of those ugly rent horses are also saints when you consider what they put up with!! You can say the same thing about any breed, and yes, in Appies it is from the inclusion of draft blood back when the US Government was doing it's best to turn the Nez Perce into reservation indians/farmers. Not the fault of the "Appy" part of the equation.

And percentage of Foundation blood IS relevant. Certainly as relevant to the "Appy-ness" of a horse as is the fact that a horse that is 7/8th QH is NOT truly an Appy, no matter what it's color.

[CatOnLap]

This has been very educational, thanks to Sandy M and others.
I was wondering whatever happened to Ap Sporthorse Assoc. as I have a mare that they accepted to register and gladly took my money for years without any tangible benefits- well they did have a nice newsletter for a few years.
I bought the mare because she closely resembled the apps of my youth-substantial, rounded out horses with long flowing manes and tails who looked like spanish barbs. She also shuffles. But because she's of unknown parentage ( out of an ex PMU mare), she is not eligible for ApHC.
I also have a full ApHC registered gelding, nephew to Sandy's old horse, who by pedigree is more than 50% TB. He looks like a coloured TB, really. Thankfully he has the typical appy temperament. Even moreso than the QH's I've owned, these apps would happily live in your living room and behave as long as they got to be near people.

[Secretariat2]

I bred a really gorgeous TB/Appy cross by Waps Millenium and tried to register him with the ApHC. It was not a happy experience. He is a solid dun - no characteristics. After I sent in my registration papers, I received a call from the ApHC telling me that as the horse is a gelding and has no spots or characteristics, I wouldn't be able to show him at ApHC shows, so it was "not worth registering him". The horse is now almost 4 years old and doing extremely well for his new young owner and learning to be a hunter/jumper. It really annoyed me that this lovely young horse with great conformation and movement out of a very nice JC registered mare and by a wonderful ApHC stallion is unregistered, and only because he didn't get any of his sire's spots! It seems really silly to me that the ApHC would register a horse with conformation like a wheelbarrow if it had just one characteristic or a few spots, but discourage someone like me from registering their horse.