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Do horses have souls- and how do you know ?

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  • #61
    Two Simple-After reading how you feel about the subject, the idea of you counselling people who can't cope with the loss of a loved one scares me far more than the reality of certain death...

    (and I'm not in any way religious, and have a lot of issues with how religious groups think)

    Comment


    • #62
      Religion or lack of is private it unifies people of the same beliefs...but has no business ruling governments and countries of which people of varying beliefs live and expect equal treatment, consideration and livliehood.
      "All life is precious"
      Sophie Scholl

      Comment


      • #63
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Pie:
        Two Simple - WOW - I can't believe it. You sound EXACTLY like me. I completely agree with everything you said. I'm constantly having the same argument with my bible thumping sister in law. Its nice to finally hear someone that agrees with me! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Make that three of us

        Comment


        • #64
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
          Originally posted by Two Simple:
          The belief in a god and a heaven is so vitally important to people because they absolutely CANNOT and WILL NOT deal with the proposition of death. People are afraid to die. They are afraid to lose others that they love. If they can somehow cling to the hope of living out eternity with the people and animals they love in some far away magical fairy land consisting of golden streets and waters of eternal life, they are greatly comforted. Humans just cannot deal with death. I counsel people almost daily who cannot cope with the idea of losing someone close to them. But if they can cling to the hope of eternal life and salvation, then the death is more bearable. The bible scripture - oh death where is thy sting? Oh grave, where is thy victory? comes to mind. These words were written by men as a COMFORT to ease the pain of death and the pain of losing a loved one to death. All holy texts were written by humans who needed something to desperately cling to and believe so the harsh facts of life could be smoothed and eased.


          Who the hell are you, exactly, to tell anyone here why they believe or don't believe in God or anything else, for that matter? I struggle with issues of faith despite being raised in a Christian household, but it chaps my ass to no end to hear people crap all over the beliefs of their fellow man (or woman).

          Tell you what, I won't try to convert YOU if you don't try to convert ME. 'Kay? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

          I don't exactly see where she's trying to convert anyone - she's simply sharing some observations here, which I have seen too btw.....only you have the power to change yourself. Nobody elase does!

          Comment


          • #65
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Barb in southern Illinois &lt;&gt;&lt;; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Amen!

            Kat in Kansas &lt;&gt;&lt;

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            • #66
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BornToRide:I don't exactly see where she's trying to convert anyone - she's simply sharing some observations here, which I have seen too btw.....only you have the power to change yourself. Nobody elase does! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Okay, let's agree to disagree on that. My main point was, I didn't see any believers here rolling their eyes via emoticon at the atheists/agnostics, or implying that THEY were delusional or stupid for NOT believing. TwoSimple's post just drips with sarcasm and mockery of her fellow posters of faith, and THAT'S what pissed me off.

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              • #67
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
                I do not believe in a "god" nor anything else supernatural. I am a scientist at heart and everything can be explained logically without the need to bring supernatural beings into the equation. I have debated ad nauseum on atheist and agnostic forums against christians and others and every single time the religious person has bowed out gracefully (or not so gracefully) when squeezed against a wall with no answers. So no, I do not believe that horses (nor anything else) has a "soul." After 30 years of hard core debate, not one religious person has yet to tweak my ear or prick my attention. Their arguments are as limp spaghetti squished beneath secularism and science. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                I thought the point of faith was to believe in something (or someone) whether or not there is any logical, rational proof to it.

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yup, and 'god' sure cared about the sparrow that fell from the oak in my back yard... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Why does God (or god) have to = saving lives/nothing bad happening?
                Mal: Well, you were right about this being a bad idea.
                Zoe: Thanks for saying, sir. - Firefly: Serenity

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                • #68
                  Speaking as a scientist (and one who studies the nervous system, and animal behavior) -

                  I do not practice any religion. I personally disagree with many tenets in several organized religions (to the dismay of my parents, I may add!), and I certainly do not believe that intelligent design has any place in the discussion of evolution.

                  That being said - and why I dislike the use of the term "soul" - how do you define personality and consciousness? There is research that suggests even insects have consciousness - defining this in very precise scientific terms. The horses, cats and digs I have known have all been individuals, and quite capable of even limited reasoning, and certainly capable of expressing emotion. I have personally witnessed this even with lizards, albeit to a far lesser degree.

                  Do I think there's a heaven? Who knows - not a question I'll likely answer in this lifetime. But if there is something after death, it couldn't possibly be a heaven if my animal companions throughout my life weren't there as well - if only for me to know that they truly are okay after they passed.
                  www.specialhorses.org
                  a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

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                  • #69
                    Rt66kix, Freebird, ASBsRBest and others that have provided 'documentation' re: animals have souls, Heaven exists, etc., thank you very much. I, too, believe in Heaven, The Plan, and pets will be there for us. I have had a boat load of really sad things in my life ( I am a 3x cancer patient myself, lost my parents and my husband to cancer) and my faith is unshakeable. Incidentially, my father was an absolutely brilliant research scientist with many patents and he believed Please don't invite me to debate, as I won't. I just wanted to say thanks to others who say it much better than I ever could. fg

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Two Simple, Respectfully, where we differ, is that I don't believe that death is bad. There is no way for the soul to go on, without it. The cat ate the sparrow, because...it's what cats do. Everything must die. It's part of life, so to speak.
                      The cancer patient who's cancer went into remission was given a gift of more time here (or I should say her loved ones were given that gift). Maybe the close call, made her values change, allowed her time to make amends with people she had hurt, allowed her the chance to reorganize what is truly important in her life. Maybe when she died later, she was able to do so without her family feeling last regrets of "I wish I had told her I loved her, spent more time with her, etc".
                      God's purpose has never been (in any religion) not to allow people's physical body to die. The fact that there is death, does not negate there being a God.

                      Your comment at the end of your post "You see when you choose the rational approach, as I have done, this stuff makes no sense." is condescending and implies that those that believe in God or anything spiritual are irrational, misguided people and insuperior to your scientific, rational self...

                      And believing that you must believe in an organized religion, or the Bible to be spiritual or have a belief in eternal life is a mistake. Not everyone takes the Bible literally, and yet they can still believe in God.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I believe animals absolutely have souls.I don't think they are "born" with them but more like they "acquire" them.When an animal is given so much love by a particular person that love spills over and "awakens" for lack of a better word the animals soul.I'm not good at placing things from my mind into words so maybe someone will get what I am trying to explain and word it better.Although my family is all serious church going type people I don't agree with most of what "organized" church services are about so I stay away from them.When the animals "soul" is "awakened" you know the look.....the dog with the human eyes.....the horse that has more love and intelligence in it's eyes than most people.Many animals have that "blank" look to their eyes.I think those are the ones that haven't known the deep love and commitment from a single,caring,human. The only problem I have with the heaven thing is if your spouse dies,and he/she was the love of your life,and you find love again and re-marry,who do you "hang with in heaven???Do all three of you stay together and that's hunky dory or??????
                        All unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy!!!

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                        • #72
                          I think whether horses have "souls" is an interesting PHILOSOPHICAL question...I don't know what a "soul" is, but I sure hope I'll see my horses and other animals when I die. That's what it comes down to in my mind.
                          *Faune D'Helby*

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                          • #73
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
                            You see, when you choose the rational approach, such as I have done, this stuff just makes no sense. For a time I was deluded. The thought of a holy city in the sky where I could eat grapes and lay on the grass all day seemed remotely intriguing. I studied the bible endlessly and the more I studied, the more inconsistency I found. I tirelessly studied Greek and Hebrew texts and numbers in scripture, etc. But I still could not believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            I am not at all a religious person, but I have a mish-mash of "beliefs" that I subscribe to having been raised by a Jewish mother and a Christian father. The problem with your posts, Two Simple, in my opinion, is the way in which you impart YOUR interpretation of the Bible and other written SYMBOLIC histories. You say it yourself above - "[you] still could not believe." Clearly others do - and no amount of detail on how many times you've poured over the written word will change that.

                            For me, it's not about god or "religion" when I think about whether my horse has a "soul." Like I said, I would just love to think that I might be able to see him again. Part coping mechanism, part hope!
                            *Faune D'Helby*

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Simple:
                              Please accept my deepest apologies Windsor for offending you!...But....this is only my personal opinion and nothing more. So no offense intended toward anyone! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Well, that is a balm to my chapped ass.

                              Again, it wasn't your message that bothered me so much as its tone. Don't be surprised when I tell you that I agree with many of your points, or that I at least acknowledge my inability to disprove them. I too have a streak of the scientist and consequently, the doubting Thomas in me, and have no wish to trample anyone's right to express his or her viewpoint. It's all good.

                              P.S. With regard to the animals having souls question, I tend to believe that if there is a Heaven, all the animals I've known and loved will be there.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                A favorite bumper sticker I've seen...

                                "If you're living like there is no God, you'd better be right."

                                Each of us looks at life thru our different expericences. I have seen MANY cases of miraculous healings in my lifetime...including my sister-in-law just after Thanksgiving. There is no one that can change my mind that the prayers offered for her isn't what saved her life. God was not ready for her to go home yet, and HE chose to let her stay here longer. The changes that have taken place in her life since then, in the lives of our family and friends, is truly remarkable.

                                I believe in God, in His healing power, and yes, sometimes God's healing for a person means that they die. What we pray for is the healing and comfort for that person...not what WE want, but what God wants for that person. Sometimes, they die.

                                Just like the sparrow died. He doesn't save everything from death...it is all in His time. He created how "things" interact on this planet, so the cat eating the bird is just naturally what happens. But, I bet He knows exactly how that sparrow died that day...hence, He cares, He knows about every sparrow that falls.

                                Everyone has the right to how they feel, believe, etc., including we irrational Christians.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Most religions believe in a supreme being, be it God, Allah, Vishnu or whomever. How the supreme being is worshipped varies and is essentially dogma. What constitutes the afterlife differs by religion too. However, strict constructionialism (new word) to any belief or religious document is doing the Supreme Being a disservice to me shows a lack of faith.

                                  If we take the theory that earth was created in 7 days, who is to say that each of those days was 24 hours long. Why couldn't those days have been years or eons long, but simplfied in the telling so the illiterate peasants could relate to the story of the creation. Why would you assume that God created each creature in a final form? Why can you not believe that God created a starter set and gave them/it the instinct/tools to adapt to its environment as it evolved and changed during those eon long days. Who is to say that the Big Bang Theory of the solar system isn't the way that God created the Earth? To me, to want teach creationism or intelligent design as a science is a sign of lack of faith, for to have faith is to believe without physical proof.

                                  As for the other end of the spectrum, scientist have faith every time they listen to a transitor radio because transitors work on a theory of physics called the Heizenburg(sp) Uncertainity Priciple where a quark may be on one side of a barrier, but then it might not. We have to take it on faith that it exists in a certain spot or not.

                                  God didn't put us here to live a perfect life. We live, suffer, believe and work to make things better and sometimes it happens and some times it doesn't. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people but none of it proves or disproves the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being. Some times miracles do happen and we have to have faith that they will happen again, but there are no guarantees.

                                  Even without a belief in a after life comfort can be gained by the knowledge or belief that a loved one, be it human, cat, dog, horse or whatever, will live forever in your heart.

                                  Back to horses, one of the Dukes of Chantilly believed in reincarnation and that when he died, he would return as a horse. To that end, he built a stable worthy of housing a former Duke. The stable is built of marble with mahagony (sp) paneling and brass appointments and is nicer than my house will ever be. Who is to say he is wrong? Not me.

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                                  • #77
                                    What's wrong with death? When I die, I'm not going to heaven or hell or purgatory (which, I understand, is on it's way out of the Catholic dogma) or Costco. I'm simply going to be dead. It's fine with me. I like being a carbon-based life form and death is an inevitable part of the package.

                                    If the idea of souls and afterlifes give you a better experience in life, so be it. There's nothing right/wrong/better/worse about believing in such concepts and I'm sad to see people feel they need to defend beliefs which are entirely personal and can't be quantified. If it's all to navigate a kinder, more respectful time on earth, why argue the details?

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #78
                                      I can't define what a "soul" is, either. I suppose I believe that it is that essential piece of us, that spark, that exists within the pile of carbon, and, in most religions and some philosophies, goes on after the pile of flesh is long gone.

                                      To deny that animals have that spark is to relegate them all to a bland sameness, and that is what allows those who refuse to treat animals as individuals, to treat them as though their value is only that which is assigned by a human being.

                                      The "group" to which I referred is the Amish. I did not mention this prior to now, and hesitate to now, because I do not want to enter into a "flame war" or simply encourage the bashing of any group. However, I have become overwrought at the sad realization of the fate that befalls so many of the animals that work their lives out for this group.

                                      I am truly anthropomorphic about every single one of my animals; ridiculously so. And I certainly do not expect anyone else to see things exactly from my frame of reference. How could they ? We all come from whatever paths we have walked to this point. But I am casting about at this point, because I do not know how to help more of these horses, and so I am trying to better understand how they come to this pass.

                                      And the answer seems to come back to my origiinal question...oddly enough.
                                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

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                                      • #79
                                        Somewhere along the line, I decided that to me, the idea of a "soul" or essence, spirit, chi, etc, is the same thing as Energy. It is a fair statement to make, I think, that we all have energy (not in the energy-aerobics sense, but in the life energy sense), in some varying level and extent. I also think that most, if not all, the text written in various religions are essentially history books, interpreted by the people that wrote them, in the time that they were written, and edited over time as new generations interpreted them to reflect their own lifestyles and experiences. And so often, they tell the same story, but with circumstantial differences. So there is something to learn, and things to life by, but it isn't...all of it.

                                        Using this idea of "life" energy being the same as the idea of "soul", and believing that all things have energy, then clearly horses are in that interpretation. I have also come to think that there is an energy source that is essentially...collecting it all. Because energy always exists, and it has to go somewhere.

                                        Makes sense in my head anyway. And in my own mind and interpreation, it encompasses most existing beliefs.

                                        Regarding how Amish, or any other people who are of the man superiour/ego-centric variety, it's simply an idea handed down to them over time that they've come to accept as fact. And while some of us (myself included) don't prescribe to the idea that horses are strictly beasts of burden, some do. And while I believe that there is no one right way to live (notice, we don't all wear blue?), it will always be difficult for those of us who don't prescibe to an idea or thought to accept the differences of another's actions if they are foreign or otherwise repulsive.

                                        So yes, in the context to whether or not horses have souls and/or go to heaven, sure. Only I don't anticipate the heaven/afterlife to be anything like the illustrated version some have come accustomed to.
                                        www.canterusa.org
                                        www.harpsonline.org

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                                        • #80
                                          Two Simple, maybe a LOT of people think that non-religious folks are cruel to their animals, but surely you don't think that every person who believes in a deity is pointing fingers at non-believers about being cruel.

                                          Cruelty has little or nothing to do with religious belief, although the cruel will hide behind religion if it suits their purposes. There has been an abundance of cruelty and atrocities perpetrated under the name of God, and it goes across all spectrums of beliefs.

                                          Not one religious group can say, "not us", because yes, all groups have their fanatics, sadists, and hate mongers. And those who place little value on human life, will certainly place even less on an animal's. Look at how women are treated in certain cultures, so cruelty to animals should be no surprise.

                                          That being said, I happen to be a believer. Doesn't mean I can't think, see, and reason for myself. I'm what's known as a thinking Christian, which is a bane to most organized religions. I don't follow the tenets slavishly and blindly, and believe that anyone who lives a good and decent life has as much chance as anyone else as getting into Heaven.

                                          That absolutely goes against core beliefs of the church I happen to attend, but the God I believe in would rather have someone like you in Heaven, than someone who treats others viciously and cruelly, but goes to church every week.
                                          Homeopathy claims water can cure you since it once held medicine. That's like saying you can get sustenance from an empty plate because it once held food.

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