Do horses have souls- and how do you know ?

[The Pie]

I don't believe in god, I don't know if I believe in "souls", I do know, however, that if I DO have a soul, then so do horses, dogs, cats and all animals that share this planet with me.

[FortheFunofitFarm]

You bet they do! I just "know" they do. Spotted Mustang said it best.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if after I die I should arrive at the pearly gates, my first question to Ol' Peter will be : "Are my animals here?" And if he says no, I'll politely tip my hat, pick up my suitcase and move on until I found the place where they have gone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sakura]

I do believe in God, and as His book states He created the animals that populated the Earth before he created man. Now, with that I think that God created us as his "favorites", but I am sure that faithful animals hold a dear place in his heart too. I believe that the gift of a soul is reserved for humans only, but all animals are given spirits (a lesser soul, not needing forgiveness of sin to be allowed into Heaven). So I suppose with that train of thought, there may actually be more animals in Heaven then people

[Buffyblue]

Supposedly animals have what is called a "group soul" or "spirit," whereas humans have an individual soul. I think in general people try to justify eating animals by saying they have no soul. The philosopher Schopenhauer, in criticizing how some people treat animals, wrote, “Shame on such a morality that fails to recognize the eternal essence that exists in every living thing, and shines forth with inscrutable significance from all eyes that see the sun.”

[Sabina]

To me, if you say that certain animals have no souls, you are also saying that certain people have no souls, and therefore you are justified in treating them the same way.
Which I disagree with.

Someone once loaned me a book on the premise I'd really like it because it was about sheep and lambs on the farm, at least on its cover, and at that time we had quite an assorted menagerie. Well, it was one of those "God is taking care of his flock of humans just like the farmer takes care of his flock of sheep" type of books, only the humans were luckier because they had souls.
I read it and gave it back. Keep in mind, I was raised Protestant, steeped in that Man has Free Will sort of thing.
"How'd you like it?"
"I didn't really care for it that much, I think it missed the point."
"How's that? It was about sheep."
"Yes, but I just don't see myself as a God that the sheep should be willing to worship. The sheep should have better choices. They should get the real thing. "

This is why I get into trouble sometimes, esp. this complicated part about not being vegetarian...I hope there are some forgiving souls in the future.

[Gunnar]

I am with Spotted Horse on this one! But i will say that to look into a horse's eyes is to see into his soul. Those eyes are pools of soul!

Just my very little 2 cents on this subject!

[nightsong]

Horses have eternal souls, as WE ALL do. They come back over and over; ever notice that no matter WHAT horse you have, of whatever oddball breed, it has characteristics EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER equine you've had? Only one answer. They're all the same soul (I believe that each of us is assigned one horse soul to be with us in each lifetime of ours, and it will occupy WHATEVER bo dy you buy it). Ever notice that if you have more than one horse, they SHARE t he characteristics? Better to have only one, like it's better to have only one husband. MUCH better bonding AND communication that way, than having, say, 1/4 soul per animal.

[Annetta]

Yes, I believe horses have souls. I believe all animals have souls. I had some weird spiritual dreams about a cat that I had just lost to FIP--I believe the dreams were actually Puddy communicating with me from the other side, & in order for him to do that, he had to have a soul. If cats have souls, then horses have souls. (Not that I needed those dreams to convince me that animals have souls--that has always been my belief!)

Nightsong, I don't go along with your eternal soul theory. I've had many horses, & they aren't all the same. Some are complete opposites. Besides, if you have one horse & it dies, & you go out & buy a 5 year old horse...it cannot be the same soul come back, and least I don't believe so....I believe souls leave the body at death & enter the body at birth.

My grandmother told me once about how as a child she was questioned by a Catholic priest about whether or not she thought animals had souls. She said yes they do. She said that priest sure did chew her out for that--he told her in no uncertain terms that animals DO NOT HAVE SOULS. I don't think he convinced her...

[nightsong]

OF COURSE they aren't all the same. We KNOW that . But the essential characteristics are there.

[SaddlePotato3]

Honestly, I'm really sentimental when it comes to this subject, but honestly, I think ALL animals have soul. I esspecially felt this way when, as corny as it sounds, I watched March of the Penguins, did you know that if a mother penguin's baby is killed they try steal another chick? Then when she tries, all the other mothers rally against her to protect the other chick from being "chick napped". I mean, come on, how does that not make you think animals have souls?

Also, I know with my horses they get jelous when I give another horse attention and not the other one, as do my dogs. So, yes, I do think they do .

[Huntertwo]

I certainly believe ALL animals have souls. They are just another living creature like us. We are just a different species.

I once had an arguement with a girl at work once. She claimed animals had no souls and did not go to *heaven*. I guess to each his own.

They better go to heaven. Its the only consolation that keeps me going when one passes on - the hopes of seeing them again.

[bewitchedarabians]

Look into these eyes and try to convince me there's not an eternal and loving soul behind them...
Same with lyrics that sum it up

[deltawave]

Anyone who declares that they KNOW the answer to a question like this is deluded on some level. BELIEF is a wonderful, powerful and undeniable thing, but it is NOT the same thing as KNOWLEDGE by any accepted definition.

Saying one "knows" something unproveable proves only that the person making the statement is capable of irrational thinking. And as most of us are READILY capable of irrational thinking, this is totally cool. It may be "only semantics" but I don't think anyone can REALLY say they KNOW something without empirical proof that is readily demonstrable to others. BELIEF is as close as we can get. Nuthin' wrong with BELIEF, but it isn't KNOWLEDGE.

So although I *believe* that animals may have souls and that humans probably do, I certainly do not *know*. It would be nice to find out, but I'm in no hurry to do so!

[Rt66Kix]

My friend and neighbor is a pastor of a church in St. Louis. We were talking about the animal/soul issue one day, because an online friend was needing to put her horse down for medical reasons.

Here's his reply.

"The Bible does not directly say that animals go
directly to heaven when they die but we do see in scripture that there are animals in heaven. Lion lays down with the lamb, Jesus is riding a white horse, animal type creatures around the
throne etc. Also, why would Jesus give us creatures to care for so much then not let us continue to care for them later? Why would He let us be like God is to us, then have them gone? Why would He create such wonderful creatures then leave them out? Why does He
say at the end of the book of Johah that He is
concerned about the cattle in that city as well as the people? Seems like He places a high regard on His animals, and it says there are no tears in heaven, so I know my dog Shadow and my horse Buster will be there.

My sister just put down her cat of 20 years and was upset. She was praying and saw a picture in her mind's eye of her cat sitting in Jesus' lap. No doubt in my mind where our loved pets go.

Why doesn't your friend ask Jesus if her horse can be boarded with His horse? They like to be together you know, and Jesus cares about stuff like that. I just know how loving Jesus is so I'm sure He can make an extra spot for her horse-He is a carpenter you know!"

As you can probably tell by now, Dan is not one of the "total dominion means use and abuse." He firmly believes that we are given stewardship over the Earth, but along with that comes a tremendous responsibility NOT to screw stuff up. His church paid for part of our equine rescue mission to Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina. They made us temporary missionaries dispatched from their church.

It also says in the Bible that God cares about the "sparrow that falls." If he cares about tiny things like wild sparrows, then surely He cares about everything else!

I know He sure did answer my prayers about healing Mac, my big Belgian. Oh, and Dan and his church came over here every few days and prayed for Mac during his recovery.

This group of Christians REALLY put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

[17handtb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by spotted mustang:
And if after I die I should arrive at the pearly gates, my first question to Ol' Peter will be : "Are my animals here?" And if he says no, I'll politely tip my hat, pick up my suitcase and move on until I found the place where they have gone.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spotted Mustang, this is so beautifully put. And you won't be walking alone on that little journey, because I'll be doing the exact same thing. My animals are part of my family, and if I can't be reunited with my family, the afterlife just isn't for me.

To me, to give and inspire such love - and to make such sacrifices - as purely and selflessly as horses (and other animals) do...is the epitome of all I've ever been taught comprises a soul.

[17handtb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rt66Kix:
As you can probably tell by now, Dan is not one of the "total dominion means use and abuse." He firmly believes that we are given stewardship over the Earth, but along with that comes a tremendous responsibility NOT to screw stuff up. His church paid for part of our equine rescue mission to Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina. They made us temporary missionaries dispatched from their church.

It also says in the Bible that God cares about the "sparrow that falls." If he cares about tiny things like wild sparrows, then surely He cares about everything else!

I know He sure did answer my prayers about healing Mac, my big Belgian. Oh, and Dan and his church came over here every few days and prayed for Mac during his recovery.

This group of Christians REALLY put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barb, that's wonderful. If you don't mind my asking, what denomination is Dan's church? I admit to having some real internal conflicts about organized religion, but this group sounds like what TRUE Christians are supposed to be.

[JER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I was chatting with my blacksmith today, and we were discussing the treatment of animals by various "groups" of people. He stated that the reason that one particular "group" treats their animals the way that they do lies in the fact that they believe that the animals have no souls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Are you sure your shoer wasn't talking about 'soles'? And maybe the 'one particular group' was a foot fetish association?

[RAyers]

I know my horse has soul. After a good round he'll... "JUMP BACK WATCHMEKISSMASELF, HA! OW! GITDOWN GITFUNKY GITBACKUPAGAIN! HITIT" It is kinda hard to ride but he is a crowd pleaser. Obviously, he listens to James Brown in the trailer.

As for if he has A soul...

Reed
P.S. This quote gives me a thing to think about

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But how about those that read scripture, and believe that the whole "dominion over the earth" thing somehow makes them not only superior, but entitled to treat animals in a manner that is, well, less than human? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a thought from the Chinese sage Cheung Tsu around 300BC. It was written in the times of the Old Testament (Don't tell me there wasn't trade and exchange between the Far and Middle East back then). He wrote a story where a man makes the statement that it is good that Heaven has given us animals to serve us as food and beasts of burden. To this a child challenged, "Does this mean we are servants to mosquitoes and tigers as we only serve as food to them?"

[gf]

Please do not discount the impact of dominion here. Yes, humans will treat animals cruely for a number of reasons. Money being one. In this country right now convience is probably the biggest reason (check out factory farming). The real question to me though is: Why do people feel that is okay? Aka, money is more important, convience, tradition, etc etc. There are people who place those things over other humans' well being and they are rightfully called sociopaths. Discounting the capacity for an animal to suffer is much more widespread, however.

Dominion has been interpreted in a number of ways. The relatively traditional one is (paraphrasing) the earth is here for man to use. Most people have felt that there is some responsibility put on man to use the earth wisely.

Today we have groups that have extremely differing viewpoints. One side is the endtimers who believe that, not only is the earth here to be used by man, but environmental destruction is welcome as it will hasten the apocolypse. (scary!)

On the other end are folks who are using the scriptures to develop sustainable churches, communities and lifestyles. St. Francis was a notable role model for this group. He gave sermons to animals.

For those of you who are interested in a more positive Christian approach check out folks like Calvin DeWitt. He just recently retired from being director of the AuSable institute. He has a PhD in zoology and has written a number of books concerning a more eco-friendly christian approach. There are a number of authors/groups out there.

I think that people are born with certian attitudes. Sympathy for other creatures I think is either there or not. I do feel, however,that people can learn to be more or less understanding via experience. The viewpoint our society has will effect us, so the contribution of dominion and dominion like ideas in rationalizing cruelty has always fascinated me.

As for me, I don't believe in souls. But I believe that all animals, like humans, have personality, can feel pain, joy , frustration, love, anger and so on. And yup, I'm a vegetarian.

[Rt66Kix]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 17handtb:

Barb, that's wonderful. If you don't mind my asking, what denomination is Dan's church? I admit to having some real internal conflicts about organized religion, but this group sounds like what TRUE Christians are supposed to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is a minister at Vineyard Christian Church; there are branches all over the USA. They are nondemoninational, meaning they aren't Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. Just Christian.

I also do NOT care for organized religion, and I am a born again Christian. So much of what Christ preached against and got angry about WAS organized religion, especially the Jewish elders that were bound by the law and didn't recognize Him when He came to them.

So many religions have gotten so far off track of what Christ's TRUE teachings were. On a much smaller scale, it's like what passes for dressage in some areas. it's so far removed from Xenophon and Alois Podhajsky were writing and teaching that it's disgusting. When you see an overbent, cranked-down horse being driven forward with tension, that is just wrong in my book. I feel the same way when some religious leader comes out and says "so-and-so's illness is due to his sin of doing such-and-such!" Hello!!!! Are you THAT out of touch with the source?

As far as interpreting scripture's words of "total domination" to meant slash and burn; use and abuse; seek out and destroy; etc., well, that is just incomprehensible to me. We are to be responsible stewards of the gifts God gave us, and to blithely ignore or exploit them will not be ignored in the final accounting.

Sermon over! Of COURSE animals have souls! Better get to bed 'cause I'm rambling big time...