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  • #61
    Originally posted by J Swan
    weepin jesus on the cross - yep - get animal control out. Arrest that woman! Be an ACO for a day and see real abuse. This isn't abuse. Abuse is a Golden Retriever who has has lighter fluid poured on him and then set on fire. A bad owner is one who takes their dog to the shelter because it "no longer matches the interior of their Corvette". Heck - several people on this BB work in horse rescues. Ask them if this is abuse. They'll show you abuse. This is the type of crap that wastes ACO's time and distracts them from uncovering the real horrors that exist.
    Like I said: "If the horse is truly suffering".

    "Revised Code of Washington-Title 16"

    RCW 16.52.207
    Animal cruelty in the second degree.

    (1) A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the second degree if, under circumstances not amounting to first degree animal cruelty, the person knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence inflicts unnecessary suffering or pain upon an animal.

    (2) An owner of an animal is guilty of animal cruelty in the second degree if, under circumstances not amounting to first degree animal cruelty, the owner knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence:

    (a) Fails to provide the animal with necessary shelter, rest, sanitation, space, or medical attention and the animal suffers unnecessary or unjustifiable physical pain as a result of the failure; or

    (b) Abandons the animal.

    (3) Animal cruelty in the second degree is a misdemeanor.

    (4) In any prosecution of animal cruelty in the second degree, it shall be an affirmative defense, if established by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, that the defendant's failure was due to economic distress beyond the defendant's control.

    Comment


    • #62
      Ultimately, isn't "abuse" called abuse when someone of authority claims so? My point being, unless this horse is truly very messed up BTR, she may have good right to claim you are psycho chasing/stalking her with a video camera. And I know we have laws for that! Be careful...

      If this vet is worth their salt (and again, I may be stepping into legal stuff again), why hasn't he/she called someone???
      RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
      5/5/84-7/12/08

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Appassionato
        Ultimately, isn't "abuse" called abuse when someone of authority claims so? My point being, unless this horse is truly very messed up BTR, she may have good right to claim you are psycho chasing/stalking her with a video camera. And I know we have laws for that! Be careful...

        If this vet is worth their salt (and again, I may be stepping into legal stuff again), why hasn't he/she called someone???
        That's a question that BTR can answer best as she has seen the horse and we have not.

        BTR, is this horse "suffering" in your opinion?

        Comment


        • #64
          So BTR, it seems like you have your answer. Fat people should not be allowed to ride a horse because they get winded and have trouble balancing. (Wow - Average size people never get winded or unbalanced or fall off a horse? Who knew?) Call Animal Control and file a complaint. Secretly videotape your friend and give the tape to the ACO along with the vet's phone number so that he can corroborate your story.

          Then get a lawyer because you're going to need one.

          And you are definitely NOT on your friends Christmas card list.

          Will someone PLEASE tell Hilda Gurney to stop riding? Fat people aren't supposed to ride! It's bad for the horses!
          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
          -Rudyard Kipling

          Comment


          • #65
            And you are definitely NOT on your friends Christmas card list.

            Will someone PLEASE tell Hilda Gurney to stop riding? Fat people aren't supposed to ride! It's bad for the horses!
            Ok that's bordering on ridiculous.
            BTR didn't say this person was a friend. As a matter of fact BTR said this person was NOT a friend.
            Hilda Gurney is most definitely a balanced rider. If you for a moment would stop seeing what you want to see in these posts wou'd realize that the concern was for an unbalanced rider on a lame horse. Weight had to do with it, sure. Balance and the fact the vet told this person not to ride were the primary concern.
            I would quit reading between the lines and stick to the original question that was posed.

            Comment


            • #66
              Oh my lawd have muuuurcccyyyy.

              MYOB. Acronym for Mind Your Own Business.

              If you really feel the need to "save" a horse, there are plenty of them out there who really need it. Go find one.
              "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
              ---
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #67
                Originally posted by J Swan
                So BTR, it seems like you have your answer. Fat people should not be allowed to ride a horse because they get winded and have trouble balancing. (Wow - Average size people never get winded or unbalanced or fall off a horse? Who knew?) Call Animal Control and file a complaint. Secretly videotape your friend and give the tape to the ACO along with the vet's phone number so that he can corroborate your story.

                Then get a lawyer because you're going to need one.

                And you are definitely NOT on your friends Christmas card list.

                Will someone PLEASE tell Hilda Gurney to stop riding? Fat people aren't supposed to ride! It's bad for the horses!
                Secretely to corroborate with the vet?!?!? Is this what YOU would do????? If I were to go that route, which I doubt at this point, would directly ask her if she'd like me to videotape her some time and give her a copy.

                Simply amazing how people assume what one would do and how little compassion some have for the animal . I think I might just call the vet.....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by J Swan
                  Nibs -

                  Betcha ten bucks if I saw you ride I could tear you apart until you cried like a baby. Same with probably every single person on this BB; including me.
                  .

                  What does the way I ride have anything to do with anything? I was stating an opinion. One of the first rules of debating is to attack the argument, not the person. Methinks YOU are the troll here, not BTR.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by J Swan
                    So BTR, it seems like you have your answer. Fat people should not be allowed to ride a horse because they get winded and have trouble balancing. (Wow - Average size people never get winded or unbalanced or fall off a horse? Who knew?) Call Animal Control and file a complaint. Secretly videotape your friend and give the tape to the ACO along with the vet's phone number so that he can corroborate your story.

                    Then get a lawyer because you're going to need one.

                    And you are definitely NOT on your friends Christmas card list.

                    Will someone PLEASE tell Hilda Gurney to stop riding? Fat people aren't supposed to ride! It's bad for the horses!
                    Again, lets get out facts straight. We are talking 300lbs here, not "fat" or chunky, this woman is obese. It is simply, according to the vet, too much weight. Whatever anyone can do to help this horse is great, and helping this horse will not take anything away from animals who are suffering more. Just because people are starving in Ethopia doesn't mean we shouldn't donate money for scholarships for those who can't afford university tuition ( one may be a more urgent senerio, but both charities still exist!) The OP will be doing a good thing if she can get this woman to think about what she is doing to her horse.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Actually, BTR did say this person was a friend; just not a close one. I've been called a lot of things - but a troll is not one of them. I'm sincere and in earnest - not trying to cause trouble. But by all means alert the moderators - I've never done so but I understand that it is quite easy to do so.

                      I sincerely doubt this horse is in any danger. I also doubt that this rider is 300lbs - even the OP states that the rider is "close to" 300lbs.

                      Nibs, you're right. How does the way you ride have any bearing? None. Well, some folks here seem to think that they are better riders and therefore feel perfectly justified in commenting on others ability to ride; based on things like body shape. Maybe it will be your turn next. Maybe you have short legs. Or short arms (I think there is an "alligator arm" clique on this BB). Maybe you have heavy hands.

                      Yes, Hilda Gurney is balanced. hrskpr said that fat riders are not balanced. Actually, horskpr also states that she's taught obese riders. And amazingly, these beginning adult riders had trouble balancing. Seems like she was glad to be rid of them. But she still put an obese rider on a horse - isn't that cruel to the horse? Were these riders 5'3" and 220, or 6' and 220? Hmmmm.. perhaps the obese students stopped riding with her because they thought she was a bit** and were just too polite to say it. There's always another side the the story. There are actually people in this world keep their mouth shut.

                      Is it BTR's responsibility to insert herself into this situation? Based on what I've read -heck no. There is no imminent danger to the horse.

                      If horsemen were to use BTR's criteria, there would be very few horses, and very few riders, who qualified. How many horses need a Bute tablet to keep going? How many people post on this BB about yucca and other pain relievers to keep their horses going? How many horses at the upper echelons of horse sports are injected, massaged and magnetized to compete? How many horses with sore backs from poorly fitted tack? Sore mouths from unkind hands or an accidental jab during an "oh sh**" moment. Doesn't that all qualify as "unnecessary suffering"?

                      There are thousands of posts on this very BB about sore horses. Read through some of them. Some of the posters on this very thread give copious amounts of advice on medication and training to either heal the horse or keep it going despite its infirmities.

                      From what VERY little information BTR has posted, the only individual that could have any possible justification to call the ACO is the veterinarian. The vet is the only individual with complete knowledge of the horse's condition, and the chart most likely has entries in which the veterinarian records the conversation he/she has had with the client. The vet has not called the ACO - which, unless I'm mistaken, could be considered a violation of the veterinary standards of conduct if he/she does believe the horse is being abused and does nothing to alert authorities. I think I can safely surmise that the vet has not called the ACO because this situation simply is not abuse. Since neither we nor BTR is privy to the veterinary record, nor has she been apprised of the details of conversations between the rider and the vet, nor does she have complete knowledge of the situation as a whole, I think I can safely say that any complaint she files or any calls she makes would be deemed frivilous.

                      If what I've posted is trolling, then there is not much point to having this bulletin board. If you want a hen party - then start a private chat or whatever its called. When you post on a public forum - one should expect dissent. Even passionate dissent.

                      And BTR - I was being sarcastic about your covert videotaping. You're the one who suggested videotaping your "friend". If I were her I'd sue you for doing that as well as calling my veterinarian or the ACO and making such a claim. Whistleblower statutes notwithstanding, when you accuse someone of animal abuse, - you better have your ducks in a row.
                      Last edited by JSwan; Mar. 10, 2006, 07:56 AM.
                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                      -Rudyard Kipling

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        This is a touchy subject. I can see both sides of the coin. I am overweight, I don't ride as i do not have a horse at present but do ride with my friend on occasion. Bareback to, i can sit a trot and canter, And no i don't hurt the horse 15.1 QH. I am over 200 pounds I don't get winded. I only eat three very small meals a day and i exercise. I have a problem with an inactive thyroid, I may lose 3 pounds to a normal persons 15. It is not fun. My point is she knows she is overweight and does not need to be reminded. I know i do, i get to see it every single day and it drives me nuts, And i know i am trying with little results.

                        I do see the point of not riding a horse with hock issues, and maybe finding a horse better suited to her.

                        But to zip up my flame suit here, and no i am not a troll. I just don't post very often. I don't think it is fair that you are appointing yourself judge and jury and letting her know how YOU feel and what you think is right by making her aware. This is not about you. Carry on with your daily life, and let her get along with hers. It is very disheartening to see how juvenile some of the horse world can be. "If you ain't thin you ain't in" attitude. I agree with J Swan not everybody strives for grand prix or the olympics. I have learned to let the crap roll off my back. Years of being taunted has taught me that. Maybe she is trying to lose weight,you don't know what she is doing away from the barn, maybe it is health related. You don't know. I would separate myself from the situation, mind my own business and carry on.
                        This response was not meant to sound rude so please don't take it as such. I just wanted you to hear from someone on the other side of the fence.
                        Last edited by frayedknot; Mar. 10, 2006, 09:39 AM. Reason: added on

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Wow, I can't believe how this has ended up. Wish I had time to read it all!

                          Amazing, because the original poster asked a yes or no question.
                          "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Appassionato
                            I stand by my original statement that light statements such as, "so have you heard the testimonials to HA solutions for horses?
                            What are HA solutions???
                            "Dogs are man's best friend. Cats are man's adorable little serial killer." -- theoatmeal.com

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #74
                              I think theres a difference between slightly overweight and a lot overweight. I also disagree that any horses should continue to be worked hard if they have some serious physical issues, such as hock problems for example.
                              They should be retired to the type of work that's advised by a vet. That may mean pasture ornament in some cases.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by BornToRide
                                I think theres a difference between slightly overweight and a lot overweight. I also disagree that any horses should continue to be worked hard if they have some serious physical issues, such as hock problems for example.
                                They should be retired to the type of work that's advised by a vet. That may mean pasture ornament in some cases.
                                Yes, but that circumstance is frequently aside from the issue of rider weight. A lot of horses are medicated to continue to "be of use," and that doesn't seem to cause disapproval. A lot of horses are brought low by unsoundness that has nothing to do with the rider's mass and everything to do with their rider's desires. When is it right, and when is it wrong? If I am skinny and jump the legs off my horse, why is that different than if I am fat and do the same on the flat?

                                And once retired, where do they go? To the Giveaway board to find someone other than the owner, who may be responsible for their "fall from grace", to pay for and deal with their needs? How many lifetime homes like that are there? I ask because I suspect there are not enough for all the people who want to use them.

                                While I understand what you are saying, this opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.
                                "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                                **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  So go do it then. Go to the sheriff and swear out a complaint. Accuse the vet of being an accessory if that's what you think he is in this case. I don't know what point you are trying to make. As you said, not "doing anything" makes one an accomplice according to your interpretation of your state's criminal code. If that is what you believe, then do something. Pick up the phone and call the sheriff. Time flies.

                                  Or do you just want to complain about this person or start yet another discussion about fat people and riding. It's been discussed to death. I'm not quite sure why you started this thread. You asked a question, you got answers. Do you not like the answers or do you wish to belabor the point ad nauseum?

                                  As my sainted father used to say, Sh** or get off the pot.

                                  Let us know how it goes.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Quote: Yes, but that circumstance is frequently aside from the issue of rider weight. A lot of horses are medicated to continue to "be of use," and that doesn't seem to cause disapproval. A lot of horses are brought low by unsoundness that has nothing to do with the rider's mass and everything to do with their rider's desires. When is it right, and when is it wrong? If I am skinny and jump the legs off my horse, why is that different than if I am fat and do the same on the flat?

                                    I think if the management makes the horses comfortable It's OK to continue to work them - if not, the work should be stopped or decreased as needed. It really depends on the condition. For example, we all know that light work helps arthritic changes not to progress as fast as they normally would.

                                    If the only outcome of continued riding is more or less total breakdown eventually, I think it should stop. In addition proper riding is essential in back health. Being very overweight and having balance problems will damage the horse's back.

                                    Sigh, hopefully I can get through to common sense....thanks everyone.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by BornToRide
                                      If the only outcome of continued riding is more or less total breakdown eventually, I think it should stop. In addition proper riding is essential in back health. Being very overweight and having balance problems will damage the horse's back.
                                      But then I suspect many riders posting on here for unsoundness help would be without mounts. And proper riding being essential to back health means that bad riders, of any weight, cannot be allowed to ride?

                                      You see what I am saying, don't you? You are approaching this with pre-existing biases about riders and weight and tailoring your conclusions to support that. I am not saying you are wrong--I don't have enough proof one way or the other to say that. But where is the line drawn about rider weight and useage that may lead to permanent unsoundness? It's not a simple thing when you think about it, and I for one do not know how much interferrence is appropriate. Do I tell a woman who is slowly breaking her horse down in h/j useage that she should not jump anymore? How about a dressage horse who needs all inds of help to keep going--should I tell her that she has to switch to trail riding instead? Traditionally most riders rush to pass along every trick of the trade they know to get the most out of that horse, as J. Swan pointed out earlier when she commented on the number of posts on this bb addressing that. I don't know the answers to those questions.

                                      If you want to help this woman's horse, why don't you consider asking her if she wants to split the cost of a driving trainer with you and you can both teach your horses to drive?
                                      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                                      **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #79
                                        If someone has a bad seat, they should get lessons and exercise to improve that seat. I mean if the horse is asked to perform, it's only fair for the rider to keep up as well, to support the horse as best as possible, is it not?

                                        I also think that there are plenty of affordable sound horses out there. I still say riding an unsound horse is unacceptable. I immediately retired my old QH when it became clear that management of his right hock problems had no effect and the dressage work was too hard on it. It was just not fair to him. He now does some easy trail riding and he's a very happy camper......

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Then, I repeat my question.

                                          You have asserted that this woman is committing a criminal act of abuse against her horse.

                                          You have stated that not doing anything about it makes you an accessory.

                                          Since I have nothing better to do while waiting for the vet come out for shots, I went back and read all the posts on this thread.

                                          What I'm getting from your posts is that you are not interested in doing anything but stirring up trouble - either for her or for us on this BB by pitting us one against the other. You asked the question, it has been answered. You believe you are witnessing a criminal abuse of a horse. You indicated that you want to alert the authorities.

                                          So do it. Really. Pick up the phone, and call the vet and talk to him about his client since that is what you said you wanted to do. Let us know what he says. If you think videotaping your "friend" and giving her the tape so "she will see the light", well then, do it. What do you care what we think?

                                          If I believed I was witnessing a crime taking place, I'd alert the authorities. If I witnessed a human or animal in imminent danger, I'd help directly.

                                          What do you want to do? What are you waiting for? I sincerely mean it. I have absolutely no idea why you keep posting about this. Either do something about it or move on. Personally, I'd be interested in knowing the outcome. Why don't you invite your friend to come to this BB and participate?
                                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                          -Rudyard Kipling

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