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wwyd: re: farrier/kicking horse

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  • #21
    Sobriska said:

    Try another farrier. Please do. Just don't call me

    --

    I am ROFLMAO.. thank you.. one of us trimmers/farriers needs to adopt this for our signature line! Maybe only on PMS days...
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      very good variety of responses, thank you! I have equal amount of empathy for farrier AND mare, but I have 3 mares and it's just not feasible to change professionals based on their being is season or whatever. I demand proper manners from my horses and believe in correcting bad behavior. Strongly. However, I don't suppose hitting a horse with a rasp is going to make them want to stand any better or be any happier to see the farrier.


      all good suggestions about ACE, tranq, bute, starting with the 4th foot next time (did seem like the 3 not 4 rule applied in this case), lunging the mare right before the farrier comes next time.....I do understand how hard farrier work is and don't want to add to his bad day.

      Comment


      • #23
        its not up to the farrier to trian your horse to stand still for him
        and you should be there holding the horse for him and controlling the horse for him
        so he doesnt get hurt

        hes there to attend and address the feet-- he cannot control the horse when underneath the horse
        its up to the owner of the horse to make sure those that attend the horses needs ie vet and farrier are in safety that the horse is under full control of the handler which in the norm is the owner or keeper of the horse

        Comment


        • #24
          EQtrainer might have been talking about when us humans have the PMS
          I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.

          Comment


          • #25
            It would definitely be worth it to try giving the horse some bute before the farrier gets there. Sometimes a horse has some low-level pain that ordinarily wouldn't be an issue, but a farrier holds a hoof/leg up for a while and in a more extreme position than a horse-owner does when picking a hoof.

            Also, putting some rubber mats down in the aisle where the horse stands can make it easier for the horse if pain is the issue.

            Have you had this problem with the horse previously? Was the horse older when the behavior started (could be the result of arthritic changes)? Or was this farrier the first and only one to bring on this reaction?

            Good luck in sorting this out.
            "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

            Comment


            • #26
              "However, I don't suppose hitting a horse with a rasp is going to make them want to stand any better or be any happier to see the farrier."
              --

              Actually... it does make them stand better, if they were being obnoxious. A tap w/the rasp is no different than any other smack; for a trimmer it just happens to be the thing in your hand and you have very good control over it. The thing is, when you are under a horse, there is no other good way to communicate to it that it needs to stand still. Lots of horses, if no one under them is allowed to correct them, figure out that THIS is the one time they can do as they please. My three year old, who had never ever opened his mouth on anyone before, bit me on the a$$ last year. Why? Because there was no one correcting him (I trim him with the lead rope over his back) so he did it. He got whapped with the rasp and he won't do it again, I am sure. He now knows that even tho' no one at his head will correct him, I will

              And yes, Sobriska, I meant us
              "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
              ---
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

              Comment


              • #27
                I'd assume EqTrainer and DB would be paying attention to the horse- if my big guy got antzy and the farrier smacked him, he'd probably flip out and someone would get hurt. The farrier seems perfectly capable of knowing whether the horse is getting nervous or being a pill and reacting accordingly.

                I am betting some farriers run into "problem horses" more often than others, and that there's a reason for that.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                  New farrier. Or learn to trim her yourself.
                  ditto
                  If i'm posting on Coth, it's either raining so I can't ride or it's night time and I can't sleep.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    First - you need to train your mare. If you can not raise and hold all 4 hooves without her kicking or leaning on you then why should the farrier do so? He does NOT get paid to train your horses.

                    While you're doing this you may as well puchase a nice SHARP rasp and start learning to file down the hooves yourself. Minimally you'll need to lower the hoof the farrier couldn't get to last time.

                    Once mare is well behaved then re-evaluate how tour farrier is doing. If she stands quietly he'll be able to do a better job, if not then look for a new farrier.
                    Now in Kentucky

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Ambrey View Post
                      I'd assume EqTrainer and DB would be paying attention to the horse- if my big guy got antzy and the farrier smacked him, he'd probably flip out and someone would get hurt. The farrier seems perfectly capable of knowing whether the horse is getting nervous or being a pill and reacting accordingly.

                      I am betting some farriers run into "problem horses" more often than others, and that there's a reason for that.
                      Absolutely. I can tell when a horse is scared or upset or when they are being a twit. Having trained them for a long time before I ever started trimming, it probably is easier for me than someone who has not trained, too. DDB trains her own horses so has the same experience.

                      I also don't have a lot of problems w/the ones I trim. In fact, a lot of horses who have been problems for other people are not for me. I am very thoughtful about leg placement, willing to work slowly, willing to do the part of training that is inevitable with the babies. I like all of it. But if one kicks at me.. well, that is always going to get the same response! Smack!
                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                      ---
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Ambrey View Post

                        I am betting some farriers run into "problem horses" more often than others, and that there's a reason for that.
                        I've learned the hard way that when it comes to vets and farriers, it is best to go with one who is a TRUE horseman. Someone who "gets it" and understands what makes horses tick. I don't care how smart they are, if they are not knowledgeable and experienced horse people whose management theories mesh with mine, well forget it.

                        My favorite farrier is old, and very old school in his trimming/farrier practices, but I've never known him to have an issue with a horse in 20 years I've used him. And he's trimmed some real beasts for me... horses that other farriers could not get near!

                        It is just all in how you approach them, and how you dish out the corrections too.
                        We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          It is just all in how you approach them
                          That is so true! My horse had always been a problem for my former vet. So after moving, I was totally dreading seeing the new vet. The old vet even wrote in my horse's file that my horse was a "problem". So new vet comes armed with this knowledge. She spent quite some time getting to know my horse, petting her, talking to her and giving her some treats. It worked like a charm. My horse was so good for the whole procedure. She had to have a re-breathing bag put over her nose to evaluate her respiratory system. She was absolutely perfect. She's been given shots as well with no problem and this was a problem horse.

                          So I completely believe the approach is a big element in having a successful experience.

                          I'd definitely get a new farrier.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by FlashGordon View Post
                            I've learned the hard way that when it comes to vets and farriers, it is best to go with one who is a TRUE horseman. Someone who "gets it" and understands what makes horses tick. I don't care how smart they are, if they are not knowledgeable and experienced horse people whose management theories mesh with mine, well forget it.
                            I agree also. I do train horses and have been around them a long long time. I can generally feel when a horse is about to do something and I can often head it off or get out of the way. I do not see harm in a poke with a rasp. I had one today that got a poke after he bit me...a 3 year old Arab stallion and a green working student handler who did not see it coming...and my back was turned. He only did it once when he realized that I would retaliate....and I did not hurt him...just used my voice and poked him away with the rasp....no big scene...just a correction and then back to work. The working student just stood there like oops! She had no idea how to handle these horses.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Owners have a responsibility to train their horses to accept care. Judge the farrier on his ability to perform his task, not how well he wrestles the horse, or how long it takes to get frustrated.

                              Owners must do their jobs first so that others can do theirs. Anything else is unfair to all parties.
                              "Riding a horse doesn't make you a Horseman. Many non-horsemen ride, many real horsemen do not ride. To be a Horseman, you must prove yourself of value to the horse."

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I think that as long as I have faith that the farrier has similar discipline beliefs, I'd assume any discipline was warranted. If I didn't have faith, that would be the problem, not the discipline itself.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Sobriska View Post
                                  I would be less than thrilled with a farrier kicking my horse. I MIGHT even kick him where it hurts. Depends on why it happened.
                                  Try reading the original post again. It wasn't the farrier that kicked the horse.

                                  It was the horse that kicked the farrier!

                                  Does that mean that in your world the horse get a boot to the cajones and an upper cut to put it flat out?!

                                  Or does that get a:

                                  "get his teeth, back, legs and gonads checked for pain, give him some hay, get in a horse whisperer and a barefoot trimmer that does clicker training and takes 3 days to do each foot"

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    If this mare is such a problem why was a twitch not suggested by the farrier?

                                    Not impressed with him leaving her undone.

                                    New farrier is my vote too.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      More training for Mare

                                      I'm with DDB and EqTrainer on this. I've also trained a few horses, but am by no means a pro. It does give one a different perspective. Yes, we can tell the difference between bad behavior and frightened behavior, but sometimes the owner can't.

                                      Even if you plan to hire a different farrier, you need to train your mare to stand with her hoof in the farrier hold. The difference between her behaving for you to clean her feet and the farrier is partly the length of time the feet are in the air and partly how they are held. You can do a lot to help your farrier do a better job by training the mare to stand better.

                                      There are times, though, when kicking is defensive because of pain. I've noticed that not every farrier is sensitive to this. If a horse can't tolerate having it's back feet held high, I rest the hoof on my instep. This requirest the horse to cooperate. Usually, they catch on pretty fast. If not, they have to have their foot held high in a traditional hold so that I can trim it properly.

                                      Your farrier has the right to walk away at any point if your horse is misbehaving. If he gets hurt, he's out of work. He's self employed, which doesn't come with bennies. I've walked away from some horses. At that point, I don't care if I get fired or not. I don't want to get hurt. While I don't mind doing some training to get abused/young horses to stand well, I'm not going to do so if I think I'm going to get hurt or if the horse is mean. I had my knee hyper-extended by a kicking horse last year. Limped for weeks, still twinges me. It's made me very cautious about kickers.
                                      "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by matryoshka View Post
                                        I
                                        There are times, though, when kicking is defensive because of pain. I've noticed that not every farrier is sensitive to this. If a horse can't tolerate having it's back feet held high, I rest the hoof on my instep. This requirest the horse to cooperate. Usually, they catch on pretty fast. If not, they have to have their foot held high in a traditional hold so that I can trim it properly.
                                        Very good point. I picked up a few clients for that reason. The horses were stiff and arthritic and the farriers were not patient with their inability to "assume the position" and hold still....particularly in the hind end....and got rough with the horses and upset the owners understandably. I have found that the trimming from the top method I use that puts the hind leg up on a hoof stand under the horse (just like a farrier doing clinches) instead of behind him works extremely well for a sore hocked/stifle horse. Not sure why but it is a very rare horse that does not stand happily like that.

                                        The most trouble I have with this technique is horses that for some reason are not happy with their front feet out in front or youngsters that are too wiggly to hold them on the stand for me...or those that paw/strike. For those horses I switch back to working from the bottom. It is very handy knowing several methods of trimming and using it to suit the horse rather than insisting the horse work to your personal style.

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