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A dog attacked my horses- Update

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  • #81
    Reading all of this makes me very sad...

    As a longtime owner/breeder/"shower" of Dobermans, and owner of various German Shepherds, I've always felt it was my extreme responsibility to train my dogs and make them safe for the public. My dogs have learned quickly what is acceptable behavior and what is not. And, because they are a potentially lethal creature, I don't let them get away with anything and, even though they are all the biggest sweethearts, I protect THEM from situations where they could have to react in an strong manner. Simply put, I hold them to a higher training standard than, let's say, a cocker spaniel.

    Catalina, I feel for you and know that you are suffering. Someone mentioned that the dog may mean as much to your neighbors as your horses. That seems to be only partially true because I'd bet you actually trained and worked with your horses. Regardless, it seems like the dog is there for a while.

    I'll admit that when I first read your post I wondered how old the dog was. Could this be puppy behavior? Sure, a dog can still act like a silly puppy until he's 2. That DOES NOT excuse his owners. But if he's a puppy is he likely to hurt you or your family? That does seem less likely because he was probably being a stupid puppy. You could probably take some small comfort in that...

    Having said all of that, perhaps a fence around your yard could help? If that's not possible, I'll repeat what I said earlier about the donkey. You could at least put one in with your foals as protection. A single donkey can and WILL kill a coyote, wolf, or mountain lion, so I can't imagine a mastiff being too much of a problem for it! At least it might teach the dog to steer clear of horses!

    Good luck with your irresponsible neighbors.

    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

    Comment


    • #82
      Catalina - my sympathy and empathy

      when I moved into my place the neighbor's Rottie was used to coming onto the property as I bought it from the neighbor's mother

      I had two incidents with the dog that greatly upset me - he jumped the fence and attacked my dog - fortunately I was home, saw it and (lucky for me) the Rottie let go of my dog and ran back home when I ran out of the house screaming like a banshie

      he would also go into my pasture and chase my horses - at that time I had electric fence inside of the existing barbed wire fence (I have since added 2x4 woven-wire fencing all around) - after I went to the neighbor and explained the value of my horses and the fact that I would hold him liable for that value if they were injured due to the actions of his dog the neighbor rectified the situation (and I honestly don't know what he did - simply that the dog never came on my property again)

      "That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.
      Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

      The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

      Comment


      • #83
        Czar -- I would make sure that your mother's shepard is NEVER, EVER near a child. My sister had a beautiful shepard, lovely family dog, gentle kind, well-behaved, lived in the house etc. When she was about five she started to get aggressive with other animals. My sister spent a fortune on training, fencing etc but the dog still got loose one day and chewed up a neighbor's dog. More training, more fencing, my sister paid $2,000 vet bill. Dog was still aggressive but not with people -- until the day it turned on my sister's three-year-old son it had adored since his birth. Luckily, my nephew was not badly hurt and the dog was put down that day -- should have been put down a long time before.

        I also had a lovely shepherd -- perfect family dog until he was seven when he started getting aggressive with other animals. He was very obedient 99.9% of the time -- kept in the house, never chained but something in him snapped. The first time it was a stray on our property he went after, we stopped leaving him out unless we were out even though we lived on 20 acres at the end of a dirt road. The second was a dog near the property line -- we stopped taking him out without a leash. The third time we put him down deciding that it was a better choice for the dog that a life in a chain link prison and we could not risk that the next dog he went after would be the one playing with the little girl next door.

        Talking with our vet as we made the decision, he said he had seen this happen again and again with shepherds -- something sanpping in the seemingly nicest dogs as the reach middle age. He said he had seen them successfully contained but never reversed. We also talked with a group of monks up in NY State who breed shepherds and they concurred and told us that putting the dog down was the right thing to do for the safety of the folks around it, the other animals around and for the dog itself. It was a very hard decision but I know it was the right thing to do.

        Kate
        Kate

        Comment


        • #84
          Catalina,

          Your situation really sucks (I almost said "bites" but thought better of it...).

          You seem very reasonable about a tough situation and I applaud you. I hope it is rectified in a manner that keeps you and your horses safe.

          Comment


          • #85
            kt-rose...

            Your story scares me to death!! My mom is really attached to the dog and gets really irritated when myself or anyone else in the family suggests having him euthanized to prevent any dangerous situation that could come up in the future. She keeps on saying that he is a dog and that the incidents I described are instinctive - and she's right, but I still wouldn't take the chance. He really is a nice dog but I was the one who saw him attack and kill our JRT and not her so I have a little bit of a different take on him. I just don't trust him 100% and for the life of me I cannot understand why my mother is keeping the dog with my nephew around. She wants us to watch him all of the time but it only takes a second for something terrible to happen. I would have had the dog euthanized myself the day that he attacked and killed our JRT (no one else was there) but I knew she would be furious.
            \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

            Comment


            • #86
              Czar,

              Maybe you could contact a shepherd rescue for the dog as a compromise...

              Comment


              • #87
                I don't think that would be a good idea for this dog - he's EXTREMELY attached to my mother. He even goes off his food is she is away for a couple of days at a time and goes completely bonkers when she comes back. Since my mom is on the farm all day, he has become very dependent on her. Shepherds are typically one-owner dogs and he's really on the far end of that. Plus, he may turn aggressive if taken away from her or off of his home turf. We actually got him when he was about 6 months old and it took him a couple of months as a puppy for him to not try and bite us when we touched him. I can't imagine what he would do as a grown dog.
                \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                Comment


                • #88
                  Catalina,
                  You don't say much about your conversation with your neighbor when you told him you will take care of it if he comes into your yard again, but I would make sure you have a very clear discussion with your neighbor that you then memorialize in writing with a copy to the neighbor. This is not just to prepare for future legal action (which I know it sounds like and hopefully will not come to pass) but hopefully to make them take you and this training seriously. Explain clearly to them the law and your rights to kill the dog if he threatens your horses again and your intent to do so, the value of these horses and cost of vet bills for which he will be liable if it happens again (sadly this may be the biggest motivator- he may have no idea what he will be on the line for). Also ask him specifically what he intends to do for training (i.e. has he contacted any professional trainers, who, how, etc) what is the timeframe for the training to begin, what steps he intends to take to contain the dog in the meantime (if he has kids who cannot be trusted to keep the dog in- then the dog needs to be confined to a controlled portion of the ouse, or an indoor or outdoor kennel). Basically, do whatever you can to make him take this more seriously (I find it very concerning that he response was he is just being a puppy- that says to me he probably will not be jumping on this as a priority) and pin him down on committing to starting this training rather than oh yeah this is something we have to start think about doing. Hopefully this kind of conversation will make them more likely to actually take action to training this dog. Just my suggestion as to how you might influence their response as best you can. And definitely hot wire your pasture. Just a sucky situation all around.
                  There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    If the owners of this dog arent responsible enough to get basic training so the dog comes when called, what makes anyone think that they will follow through with any sort of training to deture the dog from chasing??
                    I have a very big opinion about who should/shouldnt own animals (3 years at a mixed clinic), but I wont get on that soap box.

                    I hope everything works out for the best, before serious damage is done.
                    L

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Catalina,

                      You are doing everything possible to guard your horses against another attach and have notified the proper authorities about the incident. Have you given thought to getting a burro? They are great at defending off intruders such as dogs and coyotes. Like you, I would have grave reservations about allowing your toddler to play outside with this uncontrollable dog next door. Growing up on the farm, we always had at least two dogs, mainly GS. They guarded the livestock against any type of intruder, be it human or animal. My late horse, who absolutely hated dogs, did not go after ours but would deliberatly kill any other dog that came after him. He was slick at it. We have always given our neighbors and hunters fair warning that their dog was endangering our livestock and they needed to take the necessary measures to secure their dog. If they didn't comply, the dog would end up dead if caught going after our livestock. If we could teach our dogs to behave, so could they. No excuse!

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lita:
                        If the owners of this dog arent responsible enough to get basic training so the dog comes when called, what makes anyone think that they will follow through with any sort of training to deture the dog from chasing??
                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Considering that the lack of training has not, until this incident, caused any significant "problem" to the owners, how can you be sure either way?

                        I've seen more than one ignorant dog owner do a complete about face concerning care and training after a serious wake up call.

                        I would definitely make it clear to these people that the dog has had his one chance, that you can believe that they did not expect what happened to happen, but that now they know, they have *no* excuse. You might want to drop the fact that their homeowner's insurance is likely to be cancelled over this little incident, as well.

                        Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.
                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Czar, I know you're concerned about that dog, but don't be an enabler. You wrote: "The dog isn't really aggressive towards humans" in the same post you wrote "This dog will even growl a little at us if he gets in trouble - especially if he gets a spanking. We have all learned simply not to touch him when he is being disciplined."

                          Growling at you is aggression. That dog is very aggressive towards humans plus he's a proven animal killer. Help your family see the truth before it's too late.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Ghazzu, your post is excellent. I think at one year old with no training, that dog has a terrific chance, with training, of being a model citizen. 12 months for a giant breed is young. He's got a chance and I would strongly encourage/help them to get training for the dog. Yours is a really good post.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Czar --

                              Perhaps your sister (or brother) should read what we have written and perhaps never have the child in the house or anywhere with the dog -- even a major rift with mother is worth it if it prevents the child being attacked. My sister's shepherd had never so much as growled at any person when she turned on my nephew -- and he did nothing to irritate her -- just went up to play as usual, not at meal time or anything. She just snapped. The aggressive, unmanageable behavior is too often the sign of an unstable mind rather than discipline problems and there is no predicting what or when an animal like that will strike out. The other thing both the vet and the monks told us is that smaller animals and children are often the first things these dogs turn on because they are not as inhibited by their size as they are of an adult. At least an adult can defend themselves -- a child -- I could not even bear to think -- which is why we put our much loved shepherd down after it was clear which way things were going.

                              Kate
                              Kate

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Amazing. I have a dog and have nothing against them, but do have a problem with people who don't take care of them properly and that includes keeping them in the area where they are supposed to be. We live next to the neighbors from hell itself--completely redneck and for the longest time thought just because they were our neighbors, they could come over and use our property specifically our pond in the middle of a horse pasture to swim their lab. We had asked, written letters, and finally I resorted to some very unladylike behavior and told them in no uncertain terms to get off the property and stay off (at which point the man threatened to arrest me on my own property for my language and no it wasn't a moment I was proud of but enough was enough and don't think they wouldn't have sued had their 2 year old daughter gotten hurt by one of the horses). At that point, the dog thought it was fine to come over because his idiot neighbor taught him that. He then attacked my dog on several occasions because the neighbor had never bothered to get him fixed. As much as I hated to do it, I did borrowed a horse from my mother who was a confirmed dog killer. Mom knew the situation and risks to her horse (and honestly our money was on the horse since he kept feral dogs from her sheep). I had not been able to use that pasture in months because my horse was simply too valueable to risk, but I did warn the neighbor--verbally and in writing--that the horse in that pasture now had a history of killing dogs and we would not be responsible for vet bills or damages if his dog tresspassed (and I know dogs can't read, but they can be penned). He ignored both warnings and his dog was killed. To make a long story somewhat shorter he tried to sue for bills and damages because we deliberately put that "dog killer" horse in the pasture his dog like to go into. He lost. They now stay off our property, of course we have no horses near there because I don't trust the guy, but at least they leave us alone. The real loser in this, however, was the dog.

                                The neighbors know this dog is a problem and if they do not have the sense to be responsible enough to contain him, the dog will have to suffer the consequences. Why should it be the property owner's horses who pay. While I hate the thought of killing the dog, if he were coming on my property and threatening my horses--play or not--he would have to go. It is the neighbor's responsibility to keep the dog behind a fence. They have had fair warning and from a completely financial point of view, the horses are probably more expensive--I'm sure the emotional costs are the same as both owners love their animals. Part of loving your animals is making sure they stay where they are safe. For those who make the equation about shooting the bucking horses etc, maybe the neighbors could shoot the horses when they come into their yard and chase the dog . Keep a log of conversations and actions. This helped make our case a slam dunk against the neighbor.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you might want to fib just a tiny bit and say the dog snarled at YOU. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Please, please, please DON'T "fib" or LIE, as it is also called. This is an animal, with a soul, and someone else's FAMILY pet. It sounds as if it's a difficult situation to begin with and LYING is NEVER OK!!! Especially if the intention is to blow a situation out of proportion.
                                  I had a beloved horse chased by dogs and injured, so I understand your plight. They weren't even big scary-looking dogs. They were three Border Terriers who came charging after my 17.2 hand Dutch Warmblood gelding while I was on him. He stood straight up on his hind legs, I bailed, he ripped the reins out of my hands and took off. The dogs tore after him barking and growling and he ran straight into an "invisible" high tension wire fence, flipped completely over it, landing on his back and my saddle, and ended up getting about ten stitches across the front of his face from the wire. His splint boots were sliced into pieces from the wire fence but his legs were ok. I have never worked a horse without boots since that experience! Anyway, shortly after, he colicked, had surgery, colicked a few more times and I eventually had to put him down. The Border Terriers are alive and well and it never even crossed to mind to have the owner kill them. So, don't think that I don't know the heartache dogs chasing horses can cause.
                                  That said, I have to also say that I think it is completely ludicrous to put a dog down for one incident of unacceptable behavior. I also need to add that if a Bull Mastiff meant to "hamstring" your horses, and managed to get its mouth on them (multiple times, you said) they would be "hamstrung", so to speak. It is apparent from the fact that you found no holes on your horses that the dog's intention was not to "bring them down".
                                  You have said yourself that your neighbors have 2 children, so this doesn't sound like a child-killer to me.
                                  Where do these blood thirsty attitudes come from? I've always had pets and sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes I make mistakes.
                                  I'm apalled. I don't even know what else to say.
                                  "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                  http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JackieBlue:
                                    I also need to add that if a Bull Mastiff meant to "hamstring" your horses, and managed to get its mouth on them (multiple times, you said) they would be "hamstrung", so to speak. It is apparent from the fact that you found no holes on your horses that the dog's intention was not to "bring them down".
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    You make an excellent point.

                                    Again, at 12 months Bullmastiffs are enormous but mentally quite young.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      To play devil's advocate, it doesn't matter if the dog's intention is to bring the horse down or if he is just playing if the horses end up hurt in the future.

                                      The owners are putting both the dog and Catalina in a bad position because they will not contain their animal, which is part of the responsibility of ownership. Mastiff's are wonderful--I had two growing up--but they are big and can cause damage, not to mention the damage to the dog if a horse happens to kick him when they are in panic. Maybe a BB gun is an alternative if the dog will not stay off your property; however, I understand the feeling of knowing and worrying if your horses are out and you cannot protect them. Perhaps leading your neighbors to believe you will shoot their dog is a posibility to entice them to find a way to keep the dog on their property.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Anne FS...I don't consider the dog aggressive to humans as he would never growl or do anything of the sort without being provoked. To him, being hit is a provocation. Believe me, I am not defending the dog I just wanted to convey the difficulty of the situation - he's not a mean dog.. but he is an un-neutered male German Shepherd which pretty much makes him aggressive by nature.

                                        I don't like him being around my nephew one bit but I don't own the dog. My mother and I have had so many fights about this - and it doesn't help when Keaghan lies beside the dog and kisses his nose and the dog does nothing! However, I WAS the one who saw the dog attack the JRT twice and I just can't get around that.

                                        If it was my choice, whether the dog is nice or not, I would have him put down. I don't think he would turn on anyone purposely but like I said, his hips are getting sore and pain makes animals do things that they would not normally do.
                                        \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The owners are putting both the dog and Catalina in a bad position because they will not contain their animal, which is part of the responsibility of ownership. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          A lot of assuptions are being in this thread. The dog broke out of the house...once. To say that the owners "will not contain the dog" is not necessarily correct.
                                          "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                          http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

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