Pony is very aggressive in roundpen - HELP!

[lauren.taylor]

I've recently started working with a seemingly sweet 13.2hh grade pony mare. She's in her early teens and she has never had any sort of consistent work done with her but from what her owner has told me she knows the basics, is trained w/t/c and has done some jumping. She's been off for two years and so I decided to just restart from the ground up. I've played with her in the arena and she is responsive and well behaved: moves forward, backs up, picks up her feet, doesn't invade my personal space at all. She gets a little head strong/excited when I'm leading her back to her stall but nothing bad.

The problem started today when I round penned her for the first time. I had absolutely no intention to do anything but a few minutes of walk because she's very out of shape. She was being excellent, moved out at a walk when I asked, stayed along the rail. She tried stopping to reach for grass so I applied pressure with the lunge whip and she took a few steps of trot but went back to a walk once I lowered the whip. She did this a few times, each time becoming more reactive to the pressure. (I'd like to add here that the extent of my asking her to move was lifting the whip about a half foot off the ground.)

Normally this wouldn't bother me but as she got more reactive she started coming into my space (like a little over a meter away from me) and when I asked her to move out she turned and kicked at me with both feet. I got after her for that but she did this several more times, even going as far as to back up towards me pinning her ears and aggressively kicking with both feet. I really got after her then and she completely lost her mind, galloping around like a tiny maniac until I walked out towards her head in an attempt to get her attention. Thankfully this worked and she came back to reality and slowed down. I was glad neither of us were injured but really feel like it was a huge set back.

I've had some problems in the roundpen before with other horses but nothing this aggressive. I'm not sure how to respond to this behaviour in a way that won't make her lose her mind again. I really do like this mare and do think she will make a great little riding horse, I'm just wondering how to get past this problem. Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Lauren

[danceronice]

1. Get a lunge line so you have actual control over her. If you really got after her as you say, running like a maniac seems reasonable on her part.

2. If she's been ridden, get on her, don't fart around playing games. She's trained already. Unless she has manners problem, what purpose does nothing but ground work serve?

[GraceLikeRain]

Find a trainer. Ground work issues can quickly spiral into bigger problems. It sounds like she is a lazy pony and when you applied pressure she decided it was easier to come into your space and move your feet than listen. Addressing this on the ground and instilling an obedient response will create a more responsive partner under saddle. That being said, if it isn't addressed correctly and in a timely fashion it can create a snake of a horse in the round pen. She absolutely can never get away with kicking out but if you don't know what to do after correcting a kick out then she isn't going to learn it isn't acceptable.

[goodhors]

Sounds like you did things right. She was having a temper tantrum in not being allowed to intimidate you with kicking. Got punished like any "good lead mare" would treat her, then acted out by racing around. You say she stopped when you refocused her attention, BEHAVED as asked after.

I don't think I would worry about her running about too much, at this point.

I would get her out, go thru things again in establishing your control over her, see how it goes. I would believe with a couple days work, she is more accepting of your commands. She shouldn't be continuing doing the aggressive backing and kicking at you. If she is, then being punished for kicking, then running away when corrected can be expected for a bit longer.

She has not been kept as the lesser horse this last couple years, not had much done with her to challenge her "lead mare" status. Now you are saying she is NOT lead mare, so she is trying to retain herd status with you, and you can't let her win. She MEANS BUSINESS, so be prepared to fix the problem the next few times she is worked. As you say, seldom do you meet a horse that determined in the round pen, but now and again it happens.

I also think she will give up shortly, if you are CONSISTANT in not letting her win any part of the discussion. Punish harder if she tries the backing and kicking again. You won't hurt her like another horse would!! Her frustration is shown in the running about, but if she limits it to that, should be easily managed. She won't LIKE getting really tired working that hard! I would be tempted to let her work a couple more circles when she thinks to slow or stop just to reinforce exactly WHO is in charge! That is up to you though.

She probably will be quite a nice horse once she accepts you are in charge. She just has been "on her own, the only one in charge" for quite a while, doesn't like not being the boss anymore.

Good luck. Let us know how she does with time.

[lauren.taylor]

I think a lunge is a good idea and I will definitely give that a try tomorrow. And I like to do a few sessions of groundwork just to make sure there aren't any gaps in training there. I've had a few that needed a little refresher, her included thanks!

[CHT]

Some horses don't do well with lunging and round penning. Think about it: you are telling them to go/go away, yet they are trapped so can't really go away. Her response to this conflict was to get aggressive. Fight of Flight. She couldn't flea, so she took the other option.

I agree, don't mess with round penning a broke older horse. Ride.

[Flash44]

It's good that you got this behavior from her in the round pen. Horses have to make mistakes in order to learn. Watch this series of videos from Warwick Schiller - he is dealing with an aggressive stallion. Note that you have to keep your emotions out of your training - this stallion is quite the punk but Schiller never gets upset with him. There are several videos with this horse and they are short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eezd-2uq4OM

[Scratch N Dent]

I broke a young gelding many years ago that displayed some serious aggression on the lunge line. Started him like all the others. He would be OK at first then after about 5 min would tilt his head and come at me and try to strike. I responded very assertively and that behaviour ended after 3 days. He went on to be the sweetest beast ever.

In case you aren't doing so....wear a helmet and if you have it, some body protection, until this is solved.

[TrailPony]

My mare acts the same way when I try to do ground work in a round pen, she just hates going in circles. She behaves mildly better on a lunge line, but she did once kick so high her back leg went over the lunge line. I've taken her hints and decided that lunging just isn't her thing. She is MUCH better under saddle for her work, so we just stick with that and stay out of round pens. IMHO, I think some horses just don't like round pens and some don't mind them.

[beowulf]

1. Get a lunge line so you have actual control over her. If you really got after her as you say, running like a maniac seems reasonable on her part.

2. If she's been ridden, get on her, don't fart around playing games. She's trained already. Unless she has manners problem, what purpose does nothing but ground work serve?

OP, it sounds like you know what you are doing, but make sure you wear a helmet when handling this pony from now on. A pony that is aggressive and lunges at you may strike you and you just want to be safe.

I really agree with Danceronice's response. If you really got after her, running around like a maniac was a good answer.. it may not be pretty, but it is UNACCEPTABLE to be aggressive to a person.

I also suggest if you have to lunge her, lunge her in a cavesson as well.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

I would put her on a lunge so I could turn her head towards me. That way, her back feet would be pointed away from me.

I do not love lunging. But I do it, because I have finally been convinced it's a good way to see these kinds of problems before they occur under saddle.

OP, have you ever had anyone teach you how to lunge properly? Not trying to be insulting, just asking. Because it is not without risk. There's a lot of line, and a lot of horsepower at the other end. If not, in your place I'd find somebody who could show me and then supervise the first couple of sessions.

[red mares]

seemingly sweet 13.2hh grade pony mare.

I think the key word here is "seemingly". Sweet is generally not an appropriate adjective for a mare or a pony; definitely not appropriate for a pony mare.

[Foxtrot's]

Assuming the OP knows her stuff by her post...

I've had this once before when I was asked to help with what sounded like a similar pony. The owner's husband had broken a 2x4 over her back end since he considered himself a horseman because she worked with Standardbreds.

I'm the last person to be aggressive but I have my own manner with horses.
I think the one I had was just used to walking over everybody and had lost respect and pushed her boundaries too far. I took her into the indoor lunging area and just worked from step 1 through, and pretty soon she was doing perfect....Because she was small I deduct that children had been messing with her and she gradually alpha's her way up the ranks.

I was very quick to pre-empt her disobediences by never taking my eye off her and catching them when they were barely more than her planned disobedience.

Firm, quick but gentle.

[x]

1. Get a lunge line so you have actual control over her. If you really got after her as you say, running like a maniac seems reasonable on her part.

2. If she's been ridden, get on her, don't fart around playing games. She's trained already. Unless she has manners problem, what purpose does nothing but ground work serve?

This, especially number two. Not all horses will roundpen or longe. One of my best school horses would not longe for anything (complete panic) and I currently have a school horse I told was very bad on a longe, so with those horses we just don't longe. They ride fine, so why bother?

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

This, especially number two. Not all horses will roundpen or longe. One of my best school horses would not longe for anything (complete panic) and I currently have a school horse I told was very bad on a longe, so with those horses we just don't longe. They ride fine, so why bother?

Right. I had one of those. Don't know why, but although a saint under saddle, he felt he had to defend himself on the end of a lunge if someone picked up a whip. Had no compunction whatsoever about lining you up and firing at you.

But this isn't the OP's situation, as I read it. This pony hasn't been ridden in two years. All OP knows is what the previous owner told her about the pony's training. So she's bringing her back into work and wants to see what holes might need filling in.

[SmartAlex]

This, especially number two. Not all horses will roundpen or longe. One of my best school horses would not longe for anything (complete panic) and I currently have a school horse I told was very bad on a longe, so with those horses we just don't longe. They ride fine, so why bother?

Right. I had one of those. Don't know why, but although a saint under saddle, he felt he had to defend himself on the end of a lunge if someone picked up a whip. Had no compunction whatsoever about lining you up and firing at you.

My first horse was a very well trained horse. He did not accept longeing. He knew how to do it. He just didn't tolerate it. He would come at you under no uncertain terms. Working at a show stable there were also a couple of stallions that wouldn't put up with it. They knew how and you could get by with it if necessary, but generally, it wasn't worth risking your safety.

[SuzieQNutter]

My suggestions :- Safety first. Always wear a helmet and gloves. I see no problem with lining a safe circle in the middle built up with hay bales Or lunging with two reins.

For the horse that panics on the lunge - I suggest lunging a horse that is experienced and let them watch.

Start from the beginning with them.

When I use the word lunging. I mean starting without side reins and eventually, over time, working your way up to correctly using side reins. JMHO.

[DJohn]

I disagree with anyone who says "skip the groundwork".

DO NOT skip the ground work. It will show up later under saddle when she challenges you.

You did the right thing. Honestly, if a horse is backing at you kicking, I would not hesitate to meet that butt with the end of the whip! That is a serious lack of respect! If you ask for something, and she doesn't start right away, you have to increase the pressure until she does the right thing. Don't half-heartedly raise the whip, get after her.

Good luck, OP! And I agree, wear a helmet.

[GaitedGloryRider]

It may be a long shot but could the aggressive behavior have been caused by you stopping her from eating? Is that why she kept slowing down to walk, to dip her head down and snatch some grass, and then started getting aggressive when you kept pushing her to keep moving?

I've got a pudgy little alpha mare that used to get pretty nasty if you're trying to work with her while there is grass within reach. She had gotten away with the behavior for so long and been allowed to push the boundaries so far with her old owners they were scared to even mess with her. She was horrible when I first got her, to the point I didn't even bother trying to work her where grass was a distraction. Once I had established respect in the arena where she didn't have anything to focus on other than me it was much easier to quell the disrespect and aggression she was used to getting away with when working in a grassy area. She turned out alright but I think her behavior could have easily escalated into her becoming aggressive in other situations had I not identified what the trigger was and removed it while getting through the basics with her.

Now she doesn't act out with people she knows won't put up with it but always, every time without fail will challenge a new person that dares come between her a mouthful of the good stuff.

As I said, it's a long shot. Figured I'd throw it out there anyway because what you described in your post sounds pretty much exactly how my little mare started off with me (good in the arena, then unraveled somewhat quickly the first time I stopped her from eating while working in grass).

[SuckerForHorses]

1. Get a lunge line so you have actual control over her. If you really got after her as you say, running like a maniac seems reasonable on her part.

2. If she's been ridden, get on her, don't fart around playing games. She's trained already. Unless she has manners problem, what purpose does nothing but ground work serve?

"Unless she has a manners problem..."

Pretty sure turning her ass to the OP and kicking out with both barrels has confirmed she has a manners problem...