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Neglect and cruelty - good laws?

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  • Neglect and cruelty - good laws?

    Which states have good laws to aid prosecution? Are there local ordinances that have been successful?

    There is a bad example going on now, with no apparent legal recourse.

  • #2
    What is the bad example that you feel has no legal recourse?

    There may be no legal recourse, but depending on the circumstances, passing legislation to address the problem may not be realistic either.
    You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something… S. Jobs

    Comment


    • #3
      The FBI is going to be taking cases of animal abuse and cruelty within the next year or 2 ... new Federal Law ... because so many states think that cruelty is acceptable ...

      Comment


      • #4
        FBI Reclassifies Animal Cruelty As a Top-Tier Felony

        http://www.horsenation.com/2014/10/2...p-tier-felony/

        Comment


        • #5
          What is the situation? Too many times people are looking for legal recourse against care that is *different* than theirs, but not necessarily abuse.

          Think about the folks in Illinois, I think, over the winter that were harassed because their *abused* their horses by turning them out in cold weather.

          Most laws currently on the books are sufficient; whether they are enforced is another story. In general I don't think more laws are the answer, whatever the question.
          Visit my Spoonflower shop

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
            The FBI is going to be taking cases of animal abuse and cruelty within the next year or 2 ... new Federal Law ... because so many states think that cruelty is acceptable ...
            Did you really read the link you posted?

            The reclassification, which requires that both incidents and arrests be reported, will enable the FBI to better track, review and analyze animal abuse statistics — which are currently few and far between — and give animal protection laws more clout.
            “It will help get better sentences, sway juries and make for better plea bargains,” said Madeline Bernstein, president and CEO of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Los Angeles and a former New York prosecutor, told the Associated Press.
            You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something… S. Jobs

            Comment


            • #7
              Ah. I shouldn't have said 'taking', I should have said making it possible to track ... tracking.

              The link I wanted to post wasn't working. Here is one that is a bit more straight forward.

              http://www.writingofriding.com/in-th...-abuse-felony/

              Comment


              • #8
                It will now be a Class A Felony. That's the main point, in all 50 states.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  The specific example is actually the horse with the missing hoof and the calf with the broken neck in the other thread. Reports are saying that the owner could not be cited because a vet saw the horse at some point (not sure about the calf). There are also reports that the horse may still be alive, that someone in law enforcement couldn't confirm because it is the "owner's decision".

                  There are a lot of people talking about improving laws on social media. Just wondered if the holy grail of allowing prosecution when needed without inviting unintended/unfair harassment of the average animal owner exists anywhere. An example of best practices so to speak?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by red mares View Post
                    What is the situation? Too many times people are looking for legal recourse against care that is *different* than theirs, but not necessarily abuse.
                    ^^^This. Some people have a "standard of care" that is not really reasonable. Case in point (not horses but certainly shows how idiotic some people are) there was a small group of protester at the Detroit zoo a few years back that thought it was "abuse" to allow the polar bears to go outside in the cold winter weather.

                    While I believe there should be a basic standard of care that includes food, water, shelter, vet and farrier care some people do have "different" ideas.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Agree that the goal is not to encourage frivolous complaints. I know there are major gray areas - I've considered the imaginary scenario of a 30 yr old decrepit looking horse enjoying his last summer of grass. Thus the question if this dichotomy has been successfully been resolved anywhere.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MMavin View Post
                        The specific example is actually the horse with the missing hoof and the calf with the broken neck in the other thread. Reports are saying that the owner could not be cited because a vet saw the horse at some point (not sure about the calf). There are also reports that the horse may still be alive, that someone in law enforcement couldn't confirm because it is the "owner's decision".

                        There are a lot of people talking about improving laws on social media. Just wondered if the holy grail of allowing prosecution when needed without inviting unintended/unfair harassment of the average animal owner exists anywhere. An example of best practices so to speak?
                        Without intending to be snarky on my part, define "best practices."

                        The minimum standards in Duluth, MN; Nashville, TN; and Ocala, FL. Can be very different. Not to mention standards in TX, MT, or CA.

                        In RI maybe you could come up with a viable "whole state standard" but trying that in NY, TX, or CA might be much more difficult task. Even in TN you'll find wide varieties of approaches to problems dictated by the mountainous terrain in the east the low level river country of the west.

                        UC Davis put out a lovely manual a few years back they tried to promote as an "ideal" for horsekeeping. I read it over and it is ideal...if your name is Gates or Buffett or Kennedy or Kerry. But if you're not a .01%er this manual could easily become the stick for "activists" to beat you with, not a practical set of everyday guidelines.

                        I've worked in our local DAs officer for 20+ years as a volunteer and have seen a few animal cruelty cases prosecuted. They are, in fact, rather difficult if the defendant has a good lawyer. And they are impossible of the ACO is a zealot. We had one that acted with monumental ignorance in seizing a herd of dairy cattle. That ended up costing the county $300,000 in Federal court after the county authorities were found guilty of Federal civil rights violations.

                        Horses are property. The general rule is that you can treat your property as you will. With living property virtually every state has some level of legal requirements for care and treatment. Some places regulate more heavily than others. I'm not sure that regulation, by itself, will result in a more "humane" treatment milieu.

                        Put another way, once you get past the most basic of requirements (adequate food and water; effective containment; and banning brutal training practices) the State has little or no role in horsekeeping.

                        At the end of the day I don't think the UCDavis approach is viable as a "school solution" to all equine care situations.

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                          Without intending to be snarky on my part, define "best practices."

                          UC Davis put out a lovely manual a few years back they tried to promote as an "ideal" for horsekeeping. I read it over and it is ideal...if your name is Gates or Buffett or Kennedy or Kerry. But if you're not a .01%er this manual could easily become the stick for "activists" to beat you with, not a practical set of everyday guidelines.

                          G.
                          I recall a local effort when I was in high school to set standards of care for the 4 local carriage horses. It was a thinly veiled attempt by one business to put another out of business.

                          The proposed ordinance went well beyond the few carriage horses in the county. If the right (or wrong) ACO got in, it could have been applied to almost any horse in the county. The nuts & bolts were scary. Defined that a horse should be tied with a 6' rope, that only one horse/pony could be in a stall (no exception for broodmares & foals). Basically it prescribed dog care for horses.

                          I haven't read much with the horse missing hoof scenario. I would be wary about local LEOs being able to force an owner to put a horse down if a vet is involved. There are too many chances for unintended consequences.

                          My mare lost 2/3 of her hoof to white line disease. It looked awful for 6 months. Be careful what you wish for because if a law can be used to put one horse down, it can be used to put another down as well. This horse was under a vet & farrier's care, fat & sound, but only had 3 1/3 hooves. Had social media been in existence, she could have easily become the topic du jour if pictures had been taken.

                          IME, ACOs are not the brightest bulbs on the tree & I don't trust them with much discretion.
                          Visit my Spoonflower shop

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                          • #14
                            ive been following this particular case on FB. Lots of angry people noot in possession of the facts destroying the BO's reputation and anointing themselves judge and jury. they come off as damned self righteous. to publicly take someone down because of a photo, without getting your facts straight first, is just wrong.

                            i do not know the BO, i have nothing vested in the outcome, and i have seen the photos. these scolds have turned this into a witch hunt.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Posted by red mare:

                              My mare lost 2/3 of her hoof to white line disease. It looked awful for 6 months. Be careful what you wish for because if a law can be used to put one horse down, it can be used to put another down as well. This horse was under a vet & farrier's care, fat & sound, but only had 3 1/3 hooves. Had social media been in existence, she could have easily become the topic du jour if pictures had been taken.
                              I think the difference here is that your horse was under veterinary and farrier care. Part of the question would be how did WLD get as far as it did, but once you got the horse professional care then you have the 'law' on your side.

                              I don't know any practicing vet that would have considered what happened to Young Doc Bar to have been acceptable in any manner.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Posted by aliceo:

                                ive been following this particular case on FB. Lots of angry people noot in possession of the facts destroying the BO's reputation and anointing themselves judge and jury. they come off as damned self righteous. to publicly take someone down because of a photo, without getting your facts straight first, is just wrong.

                                i do not know the BO, i have nothing vested in the outcome, and i have seen the photos. these scolds have turned this into a witch hunt.
                                I saw this posted on FB, too. I saw the photos ... multiple photos and I can't see how the condition of that horse would be acceptable by any veterinarian that was reasonable.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                  I think the difference here is that your horse was under veterinary and farrier care. Part of the question would be how did WLD get as far as it did, but once you got the horse professional care then you have the 'law' on your side.

                                  I don't know any practicing vet that would have considered what happened to Young Doc Bar to have been acceptable in any manner.
                                  I bought mine that way. Until the hoof was resected, it looked pretty normal. The situation wasn't great, but not nearly as bad as the average internet busybody would postulate.
                                  Visit my Spoonflower shop

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    If you would like to see which states have 'what' laws in regards to the topic, here you go:

                                    http://www.animallaw.com/Laws.cfm
                                    Ranch of Last Resort

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      photos can make things look both worse and better than they really are. i hate animal cruelty but i hate busybodies and know it alls and sanctimonious witch hunters and people ready to destroy others' reputations and livelihoods without possession of the facts just as much.

                                      did it ever occur to you that those photos could have been posted by someone with a grudge? that they could have been photoshopped or of some other horse?

                                      go see the horse for yourself and then go talk to its vet before you mouth off.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Illinois is considered to have the best humane laws in the country, and is frequently used as a model for other states passing humane legislation.

                                        That said, it doesn't guarantee prosecution under said laws. Unfortunately, quite the opposite most of the time. The Illinois Department of Agriculture only has 3 full-time paid investigators working the entire state; the rest are volunteers, and range in knowledge from incredibly knowledgeable and practical in their assessments, to being incredibly well-meaning but not knowing a forelock from a fetlock.

                                        Because they were the defendants in the appellate decision of Siebert v. Severino (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1004604.html), they tend to err on the side of overly cautious.

                                        Horses are considered companion animals in Illinois, and thusly fall under the Humane Care for Animals Act
                                        (found here: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...7&ChapterID=41).

                                        99% of all charges are violations of Owner's Duties (510 ILCS 70/3)

                                        (510 ILCS 70/3) Sec. 3. Owner's duties.
                                        (a) Each owner shall provide for each of his or her animals:
                                        (1) a sufficient quantity of good quality, wholesome food and water;
                                        (2) adequate shelter and protection from the weather;
                                        (3) veterinary care when needed to prevent suffering; and
                                        (4) humane care and treatment.


                                        It is INCREDIBLY hard if not damn near impossible to get any of our state's attorneys to prosecute under cruel treatment, aggravated cruelty or animal torture because it is very hard to prove intent, even for repeat offenders.

                                        Sec. 3.01. Cruel treatment., (a) No person or owner may beat, cruelly treat, torment, starve, overwork or otherwise abuse any animal. No owner may abandon any animal where it may become a public charge or may suffer injury, hunger or exposure.

                                        Sec. 3.02. Aggravated cruelty.
                                        (a) No person may intentionally commit an act that causes a companion animal to suffer serious injury or death. Aggravated cruelty does not include euthanasia of a companion animal through recognized methods approved by the Department of Agriculture unless prohibited under subsection (b). ,

                                        Sec. 3.03. Animal torture.
                                        (a) A person commits animal torture when that person without legal justification knowingly or intentionally tortures an animal. For purposes of this Section, and subject to subsection (b), "torture" means infliction of or subjection to extreme physical pain, motivated by an intent to increase or prolong the pain, suffering, or agony of the animal.


                                        There are excellent resources available to any state's/district/commonwealth/whatever-you-call-it attorney who is looking at animal cruelty or neglect charges. One phone call and they will have more precedent, and supporting documentation than they can possibly use in one trial.

                                        That National Center for Prosecution of Animal Abuse (NCPAA) is a subset of the National District Attorneys Association. (http://www.ndaa.org/animal_abuse_home.html)

                                        The National LINK Coalition has over 30 years of international research on the link between animal, child, domestic, and elder abuse. (www.nationallinkcoalition.org)

                                        It's getting them to make that call...
                                        "Let's face it -- Beezie Madden is NOT looking over her shoulder for me anytime
                                        soon . . . or ever, even in her worst nightmares."


                                        Member, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

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