Last Chance Corral

[Frostbitten]

Their link popped up on Facebook today with a photo of a whole bunch of very young babies. I think they said fifteen? Where the heck do they all come from? Are they local or from all over? If you adopt one, is there any idea who the sire is?

[Lady Eboshi]

They're nurse-mare foals, and you need to know quite a bit and have a certain kind of set-up to adopt one. I believe there was an extensive thread about this recently on COTH, do a search under "nurse mare."

Basically, they're a by-product of the TB breeding industry.

[Frostbitten]

Thanks - will search for it. Seem to be lots of paints in the mix!

[Cherry]

Nursemare foals are a by-product of the breeding industry--period!

Thoroughbred foals are not the only recipients of nursemares.

[Appsolute]

The foals are rarely full TB - usually draft / paint / other stock horse mix, but there are all sorts of crosses.

The mares are chosen for their temperaments - after all, they are going to be relied on to nurse a foal that is not theirs.

Often these "nurse mare farms" require that the person they leased the mare out to, breed the mare - so the stallions are any one's guess. The teaser at a breeding farm perhaps, - what ever is available and cheap to get the mare pregnant for next year.

In other words, at least for the types of nurse mare farms that dump dozens of foals at LCC - not much thought is given to their breeding.

I know that there are some on here who will vehemently defend the nurse mare industry - but I have a hard time accepting its okay to breed indiscriminately and then pull the foals from their mothers when they are a few days old.

[Foxtrot's]

It is a murky business.

In the PMU business they cleaned up their act considerably by having to be licensed and forming a marketing branch and then, because it is such a valuable licence, they would find a decent stallion and a lot of good using horses came from that industry....but not that young.

[Lady Eboshi]

So maybe the spotlight of animal welfare concern NEEDS to be directed at this ugly little corner of the world. If there's one thing this industry does NOT need, it's more junk horseflesh.

[BeeHoney]

If you read the comments on their Facebook page, it's obvious that most people are very ignorant about what nurse mare foals are and where they come from. Many people wrongly assume the foals are somehow related to the PMU industry, which is 100% wrong. (The PMU industry is highly regulated--at least in the US and Canada!)

Nurse mares are a special type of mare personality wise. Not just any mare can do this job. Nurse mares give birth to their own foals and raise that foal until the nurse mare farm owner gets a call from someone who needs a nurse mare to raise their orphan foal. I don't judge people who use nurse mares to raise orphans. Raising orphan foals without a nurse mare is NOT necessarily a straightforward business and many farms are not set up to do it.

Nurse mare farms then end up with an "orphan" of their own. Some nurse mare farms raise their "bucket babies" and sell them (for very small amounts). I've bought nurse mare foals in the past that were healthy and well cared for. Other nurse mare farms treat the foals as byproducts or just don't want them. The Last Chance Corral takes in foals like this.

As far as improving stock, nurse mares are in general bred back by the farm that takes on the nurse mare. Many farms use their teaser to breed the nurse mare. I'm also sure that more than a few nurse mare babies have well known sires--though that generally isn't disclosed. One of the nurse mare foals that I bought, I was able to figure out who the sire was by asking what farm the mare had been at the last year and with a few discreet questions I was able to figure out which of their stallions they had used to rebreed the mare (turned out it was a very nice warmblood stallion).

The nurse mare industry is unregulated, other than by local animal welfare law. Some nurse mare farms are a nightmare. Others, very professional and humane.

FWIW, purchasing or adopting a nurse mare foal to raise as a companion to an orphan foal is an excellent alternative to using the services of a nurse mare, assuming you are up to the demands of raising bucket babies.

[roseymare]

At least the nurse mare foals are more than likely to have good temperments. I think that is really important and often missed by those who condemn "off type" breeding. I think there IS a market for horses with quality temperaments and historically it is one of the last things looked at in what most people would consider "quality" breeding operations.

[Frostbitten]

Ahhh ok. The bottom line is - it's about the bottom line. I found the little guy (chestnut?) second from the left just looked utterly exhausted and defeated. They all look like they hit the ground a very short time ago.

[Appsolute]

Per LLC - some of the foals in their latest batch are 4 days old.

And while temperament should be considered when breeding a horse, it shouldn't be the ONLY consideration.

I don't know who all is breeding with no concern regarding temperament, many are purposely breeding horses for Ammies, I know I bought my weanling based on the EXCELLENT temperament of her sire..

I see this no differently than some fool who is breeding their mut dog to the mut down the street, with no homes lined up - but say its okay because both dogs are very nice and wag their tails a lot.

There is no shortage of horses, and the market for bucket raised mixed unknown breeding, horses is small - add not trained (are these nurse mare farms training and showing their foals?), really, there isn't a huge market for horses like this.

[JoZ]

It is not about the bottom line in the way that Last Chance Corral would have you believe. They spread lies and hyperbole about the PMU industry and when that dried up they switched to nursemare operations. Of course every foal needing a home is a poignant thing. But why does it require all of the lies? The top choice of all breeders is to leave their foal, regardless of its value, with its own mother. Thoroughbred mares are NOT, as a rule, separated from their babies to be re-bred (nor is it abusive to rebreed a mare consecutive years, but that's a side dig they get in). Nursemares are used in dire situations -- foal rejection, or death/incapacitation of mare.

[Alagirl]

If you read the comments on their Facebook page, it's obvious that most people are very ignorant about what nurse mare foals are and where they come from. Many people wrongly assume the foals are somehow related to the PMU industry, which is 100% wrong. (The PMU industry is highly regulated--at least in the US and Canada!)

Nurse mares are a special type of mare personality wise. Not just any mare can do this job. Nurse mares give birth to their own foals and raise that foal until the nurse mare farm owner gets a call from someone who needs a nurse mare to raise their orphan foal. I don't judge people who use nurse mares to raise orphans. Raising orphan foals without a nurse mare is NOT necessarily a straightforward business and many farms are not set up to do it.

Nurse mare farms then end up with an "orphan" of their own. Some nurse mare farms raise their "bucket babies" and sell them (for very small amounts). I've bought nurse mare foals in the past that were healthy and well cared for. Other nurse mare farms treat the foals as byproducts or just don't want them. The Last Chance Corral takes in foals like this.

As far as improving stock, nurse mares are in general bred back by the farm that takes on the nurse mare. Many farms use their teaser to breed the nurse mare. I'm also sure that more than a few nurse mare babies have well known sires--though that generally isn't disclosed. One of the nurse mare foals that I bought, I was able to figure out who the sire was by asking what farm the mare had been at the last year and with a few discreet questions I was able to figure out which of their stallions they had used to rebreed the mare (turned out it was a very nice warmblood stallion).

The nurse mare industry is unregulated, other than by local animal welfare law. Some nurse mare farms are a nightmare. Others, very professional and humane.

FWIW, purchasing or adopting a nurse mare foal to raise as a companion to an orphan foal is an excellent alternative to using the services of a nurse mare, assuming you are up to the demands of raising bucket babies.

Ok, one quick question, since this rebreeding business is a little tricky as I understand: You can't relay on a regular cycle of the mare, so the majority of broodmares are covered during the foal heat.....I am not quite sure how that works out in the timeframe....but then again, since breeding isn't a completely seasonal thing (only to some it's imperative to be born during a certain timeframe, like TBs....I guess it's just as well, having mares in the lineup foaling late in the year? (I understand that some WB breeders looked for fall babies....)

[LauraKY]

It is not about the bottom line in the way that Last Chance Corral would have you believe. They spread lies and hyperbole about the PMU industry and when that dried up they switched to nursemare operations. Of course every foal needing a home is a poignant thing. But why does it require all of the lies? The top choice of all breeders is to leave their foal, regardless of its value, with its own mother. Thoroughbred mares are NOT, as a rule, separated from their babies to be re-bred (nor is it abusive to rebreed a mare consecutive years, but that's a side dig they get in). Nursemares are used in dire situations -- foal rejection, or death/incapacitation of mare.

Thank you! This is no different than AC4H screaming "the truck is coming, the truck is coming."

[roseymare]

Ok, one quick question, since this rebreeding business is a little tricky as I understand: You can't relay on a regular cycle of the mare, so the majority of broodmares are covered during the foal heat.....I am not quite sure how that works out in the timeframe....but then again, since breeding isn't a completely seasonal thing (only to some it's imperative to be born during a certain timeframe, like TBs....I guess it's just as well, having mares in the lineup foaling late in the year? (I understand that some WB breeders looked for fall babies....)

I don't understand the question you are asking?

Many are bred on their foal heat because of the earlier foal is better theory. So you don't keep getting later and later foals but sometimes they don't take and are rebred.

[Lady Eboshi]

Thank you! This is no different than AC4H screaming "the truck is coming, the truck is coming."

The fact remains that they have an apparently large population of young foals that have been dumped, unwanted by those who put them on the ground. I say that sucks basketballs. They are difficult to raise, and often have boundary issues with humans and confusion as to what species they even are.

And I'm quite sure most of them were being fed to someone's roadside zoo as an industry by-product quietly swept under the rug before this group stepped up to the plate.

Non-profits (NGO's for you Europeans) operate by overstating their cause by about 80%, in the hopes of getting a 10% response out of the donor pool. If there's no "jep," as screenwriters say, there's no urgency to donate or adopt or frankly to give a crap. Hence the drama.

The best possible outcome here would be for breeders to adopt other practices.
Your foal's an orphan? Fine--bucket raise him. Hire staff. If you can't handle that, maybe you shouldn't be raising future race horses.

[jenm]

I'm curious to know what the statistics are regarding the need for nurse mares.

Regardless of where the foals from LCC come from, it seems like there have been a lot of broodmare deaths based on the large numbers of foals they seem to be acquiring.

[Alagirl]

I don't understand the question you are asking?

Many are bred on their foal heat because of the earlier foal is better theory. So you don't keep getting later and later foals but sometimes they don't take and are rebred.

the point is, if they are rebred by foal heat, the client farms wouldn't really get to use the teaser....unless of course the mare has just foaled when the call comes in....

[Frostbitten]

I'm guess there are no statistics kept on this practice. It seems to be a real guesstimate as to where this volume of foals come from and why there are so many. Without some sort of tracking system it's impossible to have any idea of what is really going on numbers-wise.

Four days old? Yikes. That's newly hatched for sure.

[jenm]

I'm guess there are no statistics kept on this practice. It seems to be a real guesstimate as to where this volume of foals come from and why there are so many. Without some sort of tracking system it's impossible to have any idea of what is really going on numbers-wise.

I'm curious because the last time this subject came up, it was said it's not cheap to use a nurse mare foal and as such, nurse mares aren't used frivolously.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...-all-seen-this