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Cross Post, bit advice

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  • Cross Post, bit advice

    I have 10 year old quarter horse mare that is making her transition to dressage. I started her out in my KK Ultra. She seemed to like this bit, but has a tendency to get strong and and lean on it.

    I thought maybe all the curbs and tom thumbs she has been ridden in over the past years would account for this.

    I have been riding her in a two ring happy mouth elevator for the past two weeks. She goes lovely in this. She likes less contact, and I feel like this bit suits her well.

    I want to get her into a dressage legal bit, and obviously know that the two ring elevator is not something I want to school her in all the time.

    Is a baucher bit a good go to for between the elevator and the kk ultra? Should i stick with the single jointed baucher, or look for the french link?

    TYIA
    Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

    "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

  • #2
    If you've got leaning on the bit or "rooting" or some other behavior suggesting heavy on the forehand then maybe the first step should be to review training options to work on that. Just how that problem is addressed will vary depending on your goals. Use of a "leather and iron" solution might be necessary as a "bridge" between current training and future training but is not a good road to travel to a more permanent solution.

    Talk to your instructor, coach, trainer, or other person you can rely upon for help in addressing this kind of problem and see what your options are.

    Good luck in your program.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

    Comment


    • #3
      With your description I would go Baucher.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you Guilherme,

        I am concerned with over-biting when using this elevator. She is green, working well for her level of fitness and experience. My go to is always less is more.

        I guess I am looking for some other's experience with the baucher.
        Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

        "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

        Comment


        • #5
          A baucher does not have any poll pressure, and it really has nothing in common with an elevator bit if what is working for you is the leverage action of the elevator.

          Some horses prefer a baucher because it remains relatively still in the horse's mouth (as compared to a loose ring) and tends not to put pressure on the bars in the same way that some other snaffle bits do.

          You could look at the bits section of this website, which is very informative:

          http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
          "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

          Comment


          • #6
            How is she built? Quarter horses-can have a tendency to be heavy on the forehand/built downhill which can contribute to this problem.

            I'd probably go a different direction and use a fatter full check snaffle and focus on teaching her to carry herself, lighten up in the forehand through excercises and strengthening.

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually, the elevator is not really over bitting unless you overuse it, nothing wrong with using it for a short time to correct the pulling and leaning evasions. But it will just create a different evasion if you use it all the time. I prefer to rotate bits in a regular basis to keep them interested and not bored into trying to figure out how to ignore the bit and you.

              As an aside, horses built downhill, heavy in the front have a hard time coming from behind and often lean and pull to avoid weighting and engaging their back end because it's hard for them. So do horses with various arthritic changes behind, they don't want to rock back because it hurts or the joints are stiffening. At age 10 and a QH, these are a real possibility. Last thing you want is to bit up to correct something the horse does because it hurts. And, no, they don't limp if both hocks are bothering them.
              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thank you everyone!

                Here is a short video of lunging Tuesday night before I hopped on. I dont think she is built too terribly downhill. I don't see pain.... but hell, extra sets of eyes never hurts.
                https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...type=3&theater
                Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

                "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cute horse.

                  She doesn't look like she's really moving forward at all. She's kind of poking along. That could just be the way she is on the lunge line, but to be able to tell much it would be helpful to see her really stepping forward and under herself.

                  An unwillingness to step forward and under herself could be just her temperament, or it could be an indication that she doesn't want to flex her hocks and drive off her hind end--i.e., that something hurts. Towards the end of the video, the way the hind end hops a little bit *could* be an indication that something hurts, but she otherwise doesn't give off an ouchy vibe.

                  What happens if you just ask her to go *forward* without asking for contact or a "frame"?
                  "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Posting trot,

                    She goes back to get western days and will drop down or she starts round until she loses focus and will either lay on the bit and speed up or lay on the bit and and root slowly down. In a frame asking for forward she is perfect. She relies on every part of a half halt and inside leg to outside rein. We don't have any self carriage established. I feel like she is waiting for the bump of a western correction for every step of the way. I have never "bumped" her or used any of those types of western commands or corrections. From her history, I know she was with a pretty aggressive wp trainer who is known for his rough training with bump and spur.

                    She has the lick and chew response quite quickly when she gets to an obstacle she can't figure out. I know this previous training has put some kinks into what I'm trying to do.
                    Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

                    "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Let me look in my bit bag - I may have a baucher in there you can borrow. I'll trade you it for my saddle. I think the one I have is a 5" or 5 1/4". Would that work for her?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If the horse was trained WP you have a real, serious problem. If she was roughly trained WP the problem is even worse. A bit is unlikely to be of much help.

                        This is a very serious re-training problem and is well beyond my capability. If I were you I'd start looking for a good trainer, classical English, who will work with the horse. This is not going to be a problem to be solved in a month. It will l likely take several months and it's going to "two steps forward, one step back" as you move along.

                        Good luck in your program.

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          She's going very well for a QH Western Pleasure horse or Hunter Under Saddle (winglish style). As she is bred for, built for and trained for since she was...what?...2 years old. And she's 10, maybe coming 11 this year?

                          Shes not particularly downhill but she does take a small, low, soft step keeping a level topline as is desired in her former career.

                          Rather then worry about bits here, I would focus on forward, forward and forward. Lots of extended trot, get her to gallop, let her do whatever she wants with her head. You are trying to increase her step, get her to track up behind and shift to using her hind end to propel herself forward, anything you do to position her head or take her lateral right now is going to take the forward out of her. After you get that established and she muscles up to carry herself, you can start to refine it.

                          Actually worked with a few of these, you can improve the step and get then working off the hind end but it takes a lot of work and time and no gimmick or bit really helps with forward. It's really easier if you start with a cow or ranch type horse as they do come off the hind end in those jobs and generally have more step and power then the pitty pat sloooow movement of the rail horses.

                          Remember form to function with her, some things are going to be harder for her between her build and her former training, be patient and aware she is trying but may not be able to do some things as well as those specifically bred and built for it.

                          She looks very pleasant, bet she's easy to work with, be good to her. Don't get frustrated because she is what she is, embrace that.
                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            I have all the time in the world to get her where I want her. I totally get we are going to spend a lot more time on basics then most would with her history. I have already seen the 2 step forward 3 steps back progress.

                            She is a kind, sweet soul. I can't get frustrated with her when she is unsure. I know in the past she has been whomped on.

                            She has a great work ethic. She is actually very forward under saddle. Her lunge video was a warm up. She will move out when asked.... I had a hard time holding my gloves, phone for video, lunge line and whip at the same time to get her forward in that video lol.

                            I bought a french link baucher that im going to try tomorrow with her. In the elevator I feel like she is just waiting for a correction.
                            Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

                            "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Find Eight thank you!!
                              Esmarelda, "Ezzie" 1999 Swedish Warmblood

                              "The world is best viewed through the ears of a horse."

                              Comment

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