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discuss: canter mechanics

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  • discuss: canter mechanics

    experts, weigh in - there is a debate around the office on canter mechanics i'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

    assume we are watching a horse on a lunge (think soundness eval)
    - which leg first starts the canter?
    - is the hind limb that engages the canter transition the loading limb? is it the driving limb for each stride of the canter? (ie does it carry the impulsion each stride?)
    - which hind leg is the leading/driving limb? inside or outside hind?
    - which limb bears the most weight on a 30m circle?
    - if the horse has a weak stifle (lets say RH), which limb is shortest on left lead canter?
    "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

  • #2
    The outside (off lead) hind leg is the first step in a canter stride. Then comes the diagonal pair, then the leading forelimb. That is why you ask with the outside leg to begin the canter and also to change leads, and why a flying change that is correct goes back to front, and a flying change in which the horse first changes up front is incorrect.

    All the questions about loading limbs etc boggle my mind, I need to keep it simple.
    Man plans. God laughs.

    Comment


    • #3
      Can't figure out how to comment on this (and maybe I'm not the only one?) because I am confused about your terms.

      Loading limb? Carry impulsion? Leading coupled with driving? Do you mean short strided or something else? I mean, there are some very basic answers but I doubt that's what you are after.

      I appreciate that you are trying to be succinct, but I'm not sure what the question really is...
      -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.

      Comment


      • #4
        What Flash said.
        And I would guess that the outside hind is the one that provides the most impulsion. I'd also guess that the inside front carries most of the weight, since horses normally carry the majority of their weight on their front end. (Under saddle, you can make them work more off their hind end, but on a longeline, they would not.).
        A weak Rt stifle would move shortest on a left lead. But it would move shortest on a Rt lead as well, and may look like a bunny hop gait.

        Comment


        • #5
          WE were discussing this at the office (not that any of us look at COTH during the work day of course..lol) ... most of us agreed outside hind was driving, but our resident dressage expert said inside would be the "loading" leg. Are loading and driving considered the same thing? My thoughts agree with the OP..though I do have to admit, I found myself using my arms as legs, enacting the depart as I read her description. Glad no one was around to see me. lol
          "We're still right, they're still wrong" James Carville

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by halt View Post
            - is the hind limb that engages the canter transition the loading limb? is it the driving limb for each stride of the canter? (ie does it carry the impulsion each stride?)
            I would say yes. Because the second hind hoof to fall, the inside leg, shares the load with the opposite foreleg.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
              ...and may look like a bunny hop gait.
              Like this: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...43&pnref=story

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by halt View Post
                experts, weigh in - there is a debate around the office on canter mechanics i'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

                assume we are watching a horse on a lunge (think soundness eval)
                - which leg first starts the canter?
                - is the hind limb that engages the canter transition the loading limb? is it the driving limb for each stride of the canter? (ie does it carry the impulsion each stride?)
                - which hind leg is the leading/driving limb? inside or outside hind?
                - which limb bears the most weight on a 30m circle?
                - if the horse has a weak stifle (lets say RH), which limb is shortest on left lead canter?
                1. I think you'd have an issue getting a vet to do a soundness evaluation at canter

                2. A trained dressage horse starts the canter with the outside hind leg. Untrained horses often, but not always, start the canter with the forehand

                3. Yes, but one could argue that both hind limbs are the loading limbs

                4. outside, and also inside, BUT, if there is not sufficient longitudinal separation of the hindlegs, none of that matters because neither hind leg is doing squat

                5. one could argue inside fore because the forehand is a heavy sucker so that gives that one leg landing and striking off before the moment of suspension a heavy load to carry. However, the outside hind leg LANDS with the most impact on a single leg as it lands after the moment of suspension all by its lonesome (assuming that the canter is correct and is not so shut down that it has no suspension

                6. you can't really measure shortness that way (see #1), but you will likely see a distinct lack of longitudinal separation of the hind legs as the RH doesn't want to step under and bear weight all by itself, the LH and RF will land quicker to take the pressure off that leg. You might get "lucky" with a super sore/weak stifle and note that one hind leg bends less through the hock than the other. That will be the sore leg.


                Hilary Clayton is the one who should really be answering these tricky questions! but I hope my blethering helped a bit
                Ahhhh, spring is here. The birds are singing, the trees are budding and the paddocks are making their annual transformation from cake mix to cookie dough.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I always thought it was inside hind that provided most impulsion. ThE outside hind, being the first of the total stride, is actually 'braking' the momentum a little during a canter (not necessarily when striking off into the canter tho, so I'm confused which moment we are speaking of).

                  But I always thought the reason we trot on the 'correct' diagonal was because we were trying to influence a specific hind leg, and that is only possible while sitting, thus you sit with the inside hind (which is obviously with the outside fore as well). So it would also be inside hind at the canter, no?
                  -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sascha View Post
                    1. I think you'd have an issue getting a vet to do a soundness evaluation at canter

                    2. A trained dressage horse starts the canter with the outside hind leg. Untrained horses often, but not always, start the canter with the forehand

                    3. Yes, but one could argue that both hind limbs are the loading limbs

                    4. outside, and also inside, BUT, if there is not sufficient longitudinal separation of the hindlegs, none of that matters because neither hind leg is doing squat

                    5. one could argue inside fore because the forehand is a heavy sucker so that gives that one leg landing and striking off before the moment of suspension a heavy load to carry. However, the outside hind leg LANDS with the most impact on a single leg as it lands after the moment of suspension all by its lonesome (assuming that the canter is correct and is not so shut down that it has no suspension

                    6. you can't really measure shortness that way (see #1), but you will likely see a distinct lack of longitudinal separation of the hind legs as the RH doesn't want to step under and bear weight all by itself, the LH and RF will land quicker to take the pressure off that leg. You might get "lucky" with a super sore/weak stifle and note that one hind leg bends less through the hock than the other. That will be the sore leg.


                    Hilary Clayton is the one who should really be answering these tricky questions! but I hope my blethering helped a bit
                    No horse can start a canter with a front limb. It isn't possible.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by aregard View Post
                      I always thought it was inside hind that provided most impulsion. ThE outside hind, being the first of the total stride, is actually 'braking' the momentum a little during a canter (not necessarily when striking off into the canter tho, so I'm confused which moment we are speaking of).

                      But I always thought the reason we trot on the 'correct' diagonal was because we were trying to influence a specific hind leg, and that is only possible while sitting, thus you sit with the inside hind (which is obviously with the outside fore as well). So it would also be inside hind at the canter, no?
                      At a canter you want them to rock back onto the hind end (work off the hind end). Ideally they will then be reaching under themselves equally with both hind legs at the normal sequence. You can get a 4 beat canter if they are lacking impulsion, but that is from the inside hind and outside fore not being coordinated due to lack of impulsion that started from the first beat.. But in a normal canter, the impulsion will start with the first beat of the gait, which would be outside hind.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                        No horse can start a canter with a front limb. It isn't possible.
                        Yes it is totally possible. Every horse can start their canter with their front limbs.

                        They can even canter in the front and trot in the back (but never the opposite); some sort of a ''tranter''.

                        Some horses pull themselves to canter; I'm actually in the process of retraining one that does that...not that fun...he's like a rocket but after teaching him to yield from the leg, he can now start quietly and properly.

                        Also, if the horse is trotting really on the shoulder and if asked to canter by destabilizing it's trot, the horse will fall into canter starting with the front legs.

                        ETA : Just think about how horses do their flying changes. A lot of them initiate the change front to back. Once trained, they're supposed to start the change back to front.
                        Last edited by alibi_18; Mar. 4, 2015, 07:30 PM.
                        ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                        Originally posted by LauraKY
                        I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                        HORSING mobile training app

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by halt View Post
                          experts, weigh in - there is a debate around the office on canter mechanics i'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

                          assume we are watching a horse on a lunge (think soundness eval)
                          - which leg first starts the canter?
                          - is the hind limb that engages the canter transition the loading limb? is it the driving limb for each stride of the canter? (ie does it carry the impulsion each stride?)
                          - which hind leg is the leading/driving limb? inside or outside hind?
                          - which limb bears the most weight on a 30m circle?
                          - if the horse has a weak stifle (lets say RH), which limb is shortest on left lead canter?
                          Let's say we are talking about right lead canter, here, for simplicity's sake.

                          If we are tracking right, (hopefully) the rider will ask the horse to initiate the canter with the left hind leg.

                          Here is where your line of questioning gets muddled. In anatomical terms, a "loading limb" is any limb that is bearing weight. So at three out of the four beats of the canter (and YES, there ARE four beats in a canter, but Pony Club manuals have, for the last few decades, dropped possibly the most important "beat", the suspension phase!), there is at least one loading limb. In one beat of the canter, there is no loading limb, as there are no limbs making contact with the ground during the beat of suspension.

                          (If you don't believe me about the beats in the canter, go try riding a canter in rhythm with a song in 3/4 time. You can't do it and stay in time, because the canter has four beats. You can, however, ride it very easily in 2/4 or 4/4 time)

                          Back to the loading limb in question. Once the canter has been initiated, the left hind will end up being a loading limb, as it will momentarily be the only limb on the ground before the left front and right hind will land simultaneously. However, the impulsion is carried by the inside hind. If you ride the canter correctly, the time to give the half halt is during the suspension phase. The next foot to contact the ground is the left hind; it acts more as a balancing limb, not creating impulsion but organizing it, so to speak.

                          That said, the right hind (AKA the inside hind) in this scenario of a right lead canter is the primary driving limb.

                          As to what limb bears the most weight on any given circle, again, a muddled question. Bears the most weight when? In what phase of the canter? One could argue the left hind or right fore because both make contact with the ground when no other limbs do, therefore they both bear the entire weight of the body at that moment. But one could also argue that the right hind bears the most weight, as it is the primary driving limb in a right lead canter and is responsible for the most "thrust".

                          If the horse has a weak stifle, "shortness" isn't really the best descriptor of what happens to the canter gait for most horses, at least not to an individual limb. I like sascha's description: the horse will usually compensate by trying to offload the sore/weak limb as quickly as possible (usually offloading to the forelimb), which would make him feel very crooked under saddle. The horse may also "stilt", or allow less flexion in the joints of the weak leg, resulting in the same thing. Weakness alone usually shows up as the horse lacking stamina on the lead that makes the weak stifle the inside hind leg, swapping behind, or failing to take the correct lead altogether.
                          Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not. Remember that what you have now was once among the many things that you only hoped for.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                            Yes it is totally possible. Every horse can start their canter with their front limbs.

                            They can even canter in the front and trot in the back (but never the opposite); some sort of a ''tranter''.

                            Some horses pull themselves to canter; I'm actually in the process of retraining one that does that...not that fun...he's like a rocket but after teaching him to yield from the leg, he can now start quietly and properly.

                            Also, if the horse is trotting really on the shoulder and if asked to canter by destabilizing it's trot, the horse will fall into canter starting with the front legs.

                            ETA : Just think about how horses do their flying changes. A lot of them initiate the change front to back. Once trained, they're supposed to start the change back to front.
                            A horse that changes front to back, changes leads in the front but is STILL cantering (just cross cantering) until he changes.

                            Could you pls post a link showing a horse that can start a canter from the front...I don't believe it's possible, considering that the first beat/footfall of a canter is the outside hind (if correct lead) or inside hind for a counter canter.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Most horses have to be trained to take the first step of canter with the hind quarters. It is completely natural for a young untrained horse to pull themselves with their forehand into the canter.
                              Ahhhh, spring is here. The birds are singing, the trees are budding and the paddocks are making their annual transformation from cake mix to cookie dough.

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