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So bummed, feel like I bought the wrong horse - Update : post #101

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  • #41
    Good fast work on the trails requires trails one can do that on. I don't know where OP is located but there are many areas where trails are very rocky, have tree roots in them, etc. Or you are prohibited from doing anything but walking. I basically have to trailer somewhere else if I want more than a very short trot or canter. There are beautiful orchards across the street from where I board now, and we are not allowed to do anything but walk in them (though we do, um, violate this occasionally for a short trot or canter -- but SHORT.)

    OP, my mare was similar... never as bad as yours, but certainly a bit herdbound and insecure on the trail by herself. I worked with her for several years (interrupted by surgery and a long rehab, during which I hand walked her away from the barn a lot.) What I ended up with is a horse that is willing enough to go out on trails alone, but isn't necessarily thrilled by it unless she knows by the route we take that she isn't going to be out for more than about 20 minutes. She definitely has a "homegoing walk" and will fuss a bit if I stop her on the way home, and may try to bolt if we canter heading back to the barn. I have occasionally just dismounted and worked from the ground when she's gotten too silly. To some degree pushing her to be a really happy solo trail horse would not be kind to her.

    She goes out with other horses well enough and we have used her as a calming influence with horses that get nervous on trails, even a few horses with really bad "homegoing" issues -- stick my mare in front, and they Will. Not. Pass. her. Her only trouble with groups is that she gets very competitive in a group canter -- tends to get a bit too airborne and want to pass everyone!

    But this took me years to develop in her. No doubt someone who's a better rider on trails than me could do more with her, but I'm the rider she has, and we work within both our limitations.
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

    Comment


    • #42
      Is there another horse at the barn you can use to trail ride occasionally? There is a dressage rider at my barn whose horse isn't stellar on trails. When she and her husband want to trail ride, she takes DD's horse. She leaves a little gift for DD as compensation.
      A proud friend of bar.ka.

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      • #43
        I suggest you stop thinking of "trail riding" and "dressage" as two different things. You should always ride exactly the same regardless of where you are and stop doing the lazy "ride on the buckle" on the trail- never could really figure out why people do that anyway. If the horse is busy working, and neither of you make any distinction between ring riding and field riding and trail riding, the behavior will go away. Don't walk the entire ride, trot and cancer. Do lateral movements and transitions. Ride to a field and do a whole test. Then ride to another field and do another test. Then practice trot-canter transitions all the way home, and ride another test in the ring. Make it all the same to the horse.

        Comment


        • #44
          Okay, now I am really confused. You mentioned you did try to ride the horse "dressage-like" on the trail in response to my post, but later said you only walk?
          I suppose I should have explained that to me, that means I will be practicing transitions, leg yields, shoulder ins, walk trot halt back up, serpentines, etc

          I am also confused as to what makes him awful on the trail if all he does is walk fast?

          That said, if you feel the horse is not enjoyable or you don't have the time/commitment to try to fix the issue, nothing wrong with selling and getting something more appropriate.
          "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

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          • #45
            What if you quit or limit dressage in the arena for awhile and do nothing but trail riding? Maybe when it is "the usual" your horse might be less reactive? I would just try to be super patient with this horse and see if things can work out. Something to prevent the giraffe neck thing would likely be helpful. Best of luck to you and I hope that things will work out for the best.

            Comment


            • #46
              Someone already mentioned this -- but have you tried trail riding before you arena work? And then maybe standing tied in the cross ties for 45 minutes while you groom or whatever?

              Have you tried making him stay BEHIND the pokey horse as you return home?

              Have you tried getting off and walking him home? (I know some horses can be worse in hand, but still something to try.)

              Do you need more bit on the trail than you use in the arena?

              I also agree with the Ace suggestion. Clearly this isn't a substitute for training. You're just trying to modify his state of mind.

              And thinking way outside the box -- I wonder if it's possible that cotton balls in his ears or Vicks in his nose could disorient him so that he wasn't sure which way was home.
              I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

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              • Original Poster

                #47
                Sorry for any confusion. To clarify, I have tried both working him on the trail (eg, doing some dressage work) and just letting him walk on a loose rein. Currently all I do is walk him because working him wasn't improving the behavior and it was suggested to me that letting him just walk would teach him to associate trail riding as relaxing and not work. The one thing I have not tried is working him hard right from the start, so I can certainly try that.

                I have also never tried ponying or long lining him, so thanks for those suggestions.

                I have never tried Ace or any other calming agent. Is that really safe? And I've never even heard of cotton balls/Vicks, how does that work?

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                • #48
                  Yuck! You poor thing - I feel for you. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. My last horse would do the same thing. He wasn't spooky on the trail but he KNEW when an hour was up and he was done. Off home he would head. Circling him made him crazy and he learned a "neat" way to evade me. he would drop his head and while circling would back up a hundred mph - towards home. Rat bastard. Super scary. The only thing that worked with him was to turn his happy ass right back around and head him back out. He would throw tantrums and I just learned to keep the idea in my head that I would stay out there as long as I needed to get over. I was out one day for four hours with him. I learned not to get off and lead him because he wouldn't let me back on so I learned to ride thru a lot of baloney. He threw one final epic hissy on that four hour day and I never had another problem with him.

                  On the other hand I had a Morgan mare that once you turned her for home she would start jigging and jogging. Tried everything with her and nothing worked - it all seemed to frustrate her even more. One day I just had it and dropped the reins and told her to go for it because her butt was going to be very tired when she got home (we'd already been out several hours one way). She jogged and fidgeted for about half a mile then stopped and walkd home calm as could be - all the while shooting dirty looks over her shoulder at me like "See? Next time you should listen to me."

                  What would happen if you dropped the reins? Do you think he would run off?
                  I hope not. Also try keeping him out - you just have to have it in your head that you'll be out there all day and all night if necessary.

                  I wish you luck.
                  "Cats aren't clean; they're covered with cat spit."
                  - John S Nichols (1745-1846,writer/printer)

                  Don't come for me - I didn't send for you.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Life is short, horse keeping is expensive, sell the one you've got and get the one you want. Barn sour horses once set in their ways are a PITA and hard to fix. You can have both things, but you need to buy the right horse. Next time!

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by MissApple View Post

                      I have never tried Ace or any other calming agent. Is that really safe? And I've never even heard of cotton balls/Vicks, how does that work?
                      Yes, ace is fine. Talk to your vet about an appropriate dose. If you don't give IM shots, you can give the liquid orally or your vet can give you pills. When I was rehabbing my TB from a ligament injury I most certainly gave him Ace before I rode!
                      Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                      EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by MissApple View Post
                        Sorry for any confusion. To clarify, I have tried both working him on the trail (eg, doing some dressage work) and just letting him walk on a loose rein. Currently all I do is walk him because working him wasn't improving the behavior and it was suggested to me that letting him just walk would teach him to associate trail riding as relaxing and not work. The one thing I have not tried is working him hard right from the start, so I can certainly try that.

                        I have also never tried ponying or long lining him, so thanks for those suggestions.

                        I have never tried Ace or any other calming agent. Is that really safe? And I've never even heard of cotton balls/Vicks, how does that work?
                        You had the horse long enough to know if it is going to work or not.

                        Sure, you can keep trying to fit square pegs in round holes, many do just that and find it interesting and rewarding.
                        Others, that is not what they want, but a horse that is by nature and training amenable to go on the buckle on trail rides.

                        Now that you have so many ideas to consider, you can decide which kind of horse you have and if it fits with the kind of horse you want or not and then act on it.

                        Life is too short to be unhappy, especially on some of the more important things, like enjoying as much as you may your time with your horse.

                        As for living better thru chemistry, well, have never done it and question that be a long term solution and a safe one.
                        I would not want to ride a horse impaired in any way.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by MissApple View Post

                          I have never tried Ace or any other calming agent. Is that really safe? And I've never even heard of cotton balls/Vicks, how does that work?
                          Ace might be called for but there may other things to try first and Ace does not always work the way you think it will...and it wears off pretty quick.

                          The Vicks? Rub it on their nose, it hides various smells that could get them excited. Very old trick for working with a stallion in mixed company, works too. People who have to work around disgusting smells use it as well.

                          Cotton balls? Ear bunnies/plugs. They can still hear, it just mutes it a bit and eliminates those slight "what's that" noises from some critter 30 yards away crawling around the bushes. Or deer. Best to use sheet cotton to tear off and make your own about 1 1/2 to 2inch balls, the ones in the bags at the drug store are too small. Use them all the time until he gets used to them, they usually try to shake them out at first but quickly get used to it. They also sell ear bunnies at many tack stores and some cat toys are perfect.

                          You know, he sounds like he might be fresh., especially if he gets antsy going away from the barn. How much excercises does he get daily? Any turn out? A lot of fresh horses are fine in a confined area like an arena but not so much out on a trail.
                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                          • #53
                            Have you tried treats?

                            I would bring a large bag of baby carrots and, on the way out, stop every minute or so to halt, "say yes" to the bridle and stand like a rock, and then have a treat.

                            No treats on the way home unless he is good, or at least a little better.
                            The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                            Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                            Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                            The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                              As for living better thru chemistry, well, have never done it and question that be a long term solution and a safe one.
                              I would not want to ride a horse impaired in any way.
                              Yeah, I have to admit I feel a bit uncomfortable trying to fix this through chemistry. I can see it being justified for a horse coming off injury and just starting back into work, but that's not the case with him. Maybe others can assuage my fears, but I'm just not sure it's the right path for us.

                              But I've got some great new ideas to try from this thread, so maybe one of them will cause a revelation (you never know....)

                              As for his work/turnout, he lives outside 24/7 in a large (maybe 3/4 acre?) turnout with 3 other horses. They have an open barn and the option to come in, but they all prefer being outside. He gets worked 5 days a week, 4 days of lunging/dressage/short trail ride (not necessarily in that order, about 1.5 hours of riding), and one day of what is supposed to be (but isn't) a long relaxing 2 hour-ish trail ride.

                              And yes, I've tried treats. They distract him for a nano-second, but that's about it
                              Last edited by MissApple; Feb. 22, 2015, 10:32 AM. Reason: typo

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Ah, but nano seconds are at least a reaction and can be increased to milliseconds, then half seconds etc. I don't think it's hopeless or he's a total d*ck head

                                I still think he's not getting enough hard work, how long do you trot and canter under saddle-without halting? He can't run much in anything less then a few acres, most of them do tons better if they get a good blow out every week or so. You can do it in an arena by timing your trot and canter work, get him winded. Better outside but that's not always possible.

                                Try it. Use a watch. Mine did 20 minutes trot, collected, working and extended, few leg yields, no small circles, long sides, centerline, quarter line, serpentine. Twenty minutes. No halt. Followed by a walk break then 10 minutes canter work with minimum halts.

                                Try it a few times a week, see if it tones him down. My friends with Dressage horses admit they get a bit too detail oriented at times and forget it's still a horse and needs to move out and open up once in awhile without circling every few strides. They say it solves most of their issues when they remember.

                                Good excuse to build up your own stamina too...we Adults tend to not work them or us as hard as we should and wuss out instead of pressing on.
                                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by wendy View Post
                                  I suggest you stop thinking of "trail riding" and "dressage" as two different things. You should always ride exactly the same regardless of where you are and stop doing the lazy "ride on the buckle" on the trail- never could really figure out why people do that anyway.
                                  I love the lazy trail ride on the buckle and that's one type of trail riding I do. I also do schooling of various sorts (lateral work, transitions between/within gaits, hill work, conditioning, etc.). Sometimes I drop my reins altogether and see how good we can steer, do lateral work, move up and down through the gaits with no hands. Other times I do bareback rides and work on my seat. I love trail riding.

                                  OP, I've had a horse who hated trail riding and I did sell him because if he couldn't jump any more, I didn't want to only be stuck in the dressage ring. At the time I didn't have the experience that I do now and I was at a boarding barn and my circumstances were different.

                                  Now I might give it more time and effort. It doesn't sound as if your horse is particularly bad, just the fast walk. When I first got my TB and took him on our first trail ride, it was horrible. We went with some friends who were on their steady QH trail horses and mine was jigging and leaping about. I decided he needed a good run. Luckily we're in the hills and so I could point him uphill and go. And so we did. When he wanted to slow down, I pushed him on until we got to the top of a big hill. He was tired and out of breath and so was happy to walk back. I did many types of rides like that were we'd start off at a nice walk for a warm up, get to an area with good footing and not a lot of people, and move up to a trot; then, when we got to a hill we'd move up to a canter. And then we'd walk back.

                                  You know, looking back on it I had another QH who was a little bit jiggy on the way home and did the same thing with him. The ride out was for work. The ride back was for rest ('cause for one thing I'm not going to go trotting or cantering down hills!).

                                  You know what? All my horses are so quiet and lazy on the way home. There's never any jigging or speeding up and they aren't anxious to get back to the trailer. I didn't set out for this result, but the act of working up hill on the way out and down hill on the way back sort of set up this pattern for us and now my horses are well behaved either way we go.

                                  I do choose my riding companions carefully and usually ride alone. Riding in a group makes things more exciting but with the right group of people we can work on that as well, with a specific plan and cooperation from everyone.

                                  Good luck to you!
                                  "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by MissApple View Post
                                    And yes, I've tried treats. They distract him for a nano-second, but that's about it
                                    I would recommend trying a book on clicker training and practicing extending duration.

                                    Even if you are home in the barn having him stand on a towel for increasing periods of time, that is practice for the trail. For example Alexandra Kurland I think has the "statue game." How much of a jerk can he be if you press the "Statue please" button? The longer he is doing a counter-indicative behavior (a dog who jumps on visitors can not jump if tasked with sitting instead, for example) the more time he is doing what you want.

                                    Also, it is better to give him something TO DO instead, rather than spending the whole time on the trail saying "Stop being an @$$hole."

                                    As with the dog, if you just say "Don't jump! No jumping! Bad jumping!" this is like, 1/5 as effective as simply forgetting about discouraging the jumping altogether and teaching the dog to hold a sit as something TO DO instead.

                                    I get the feeling from your posts that you kind of want to just kick back with nothing on the menu, and he is feeling the absence of something to proactively DO.
                                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                                    • #58
                                      Some horses like to go down the trail, all the smells, the interesting things out there to see.
                                      Some don't, the rider has to make their time outside, as inside, interesting and motivate them to be happy out there, when they normally would rather be somewhere else.

                                      Seems that you want a happy trail horse, being happy out on the trails, dragging it's feet going to the same, old boring barn/pasture to stand around, not a horse that is going out without motivation other than you are making him go.

                                      Maybe you ought to decide if you can motivate your horse to like it on the trail, or get a horse that is naturally interested in all out there already and not have that work when all you want is to cruise along and see the sights yourself, not just a chance of scenery where you are working with your horse.

                                      We can't tell you to have the horse evaluated by a trainer as suitability for what you want, since you already told us your trainer, after working all this time with you and your horse, already told you that you were not that good a match.
                                      Maybe your trainer is right?
                                      Why not ask for more details why?

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        My first mare would do that sort of. If I went out with someone else we were fine, if I went out on a long long ride we were usually fine, but when I hacked to a lesson I could never put into practice any of the things I'd been working on in the lesson - we had a deal. Kick the feet out, on the buckle, and she'd do her best impression of a rack to get home in time for dinner.

                                        It didn't help that on the way to the lesson we were trotting or cantering at every spot with dirt footing to save time, but I didn't trust her not to just run like hell home, so the trade was this very fast tippy toe walk. If I picked up the reins it turned into a pretty nasty and unsafe jig, waiting to cross roads wasn't so great either - often the safest was to dismount if she'd stand still for mounting

                                        I'm not sure how to fix it, maybe get some yahoos out with a hard gallop and see if he'll decide that a sedate walk is less work?
                                        Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                                        Incredible Invisible

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                                        • #60
                                          I think all horses can be good trail horses.

                                          Are you confident, or does the behaviour worry you? Can you ride some circles, or even rein back, the very moment the horse starts to rush. Imagine you were in the arena and the horse exhibited the same behaviour - how would you approach it? It might be worth putting that forward attitude to good use and really working on collection on the homeward journey.

                                          Be prepared that you might face some minor tantrums when you first start enforcing this, but they come around very quickly

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