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Science based medicine

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  • Science based medicine

    I for one do not partake in Bowen therapy, osteopathy, reiki, rescue remedy, homeopathy, essential oils, etc and there are VERY FEW chiropractors I would even consider looking at my horse.

    Why?

    Because NONE of those things are science-based medicine. It seems sometimes people have a tendency to choose modalities that are very unlikely to work for their horse. My personal preference is to use known science as a measure.

    I have two things that I evaluate when thinking of a treatment for my horse:

    1. Is there scientific evidence that it works?

    2. What are the chances, scientifically, it will work?

    I generally come about this by reading peer-reviewed medical journals. My horse does not get anything other than massage, which has been proven to work. I am not going to subject him (or really, my wallet) to some guy waving his hands over him and "manipulating his energies", then calling it "healing".


    Is anyone else in the same boat as me?
    Last edited by dungrulla; Feb. 24, 2015, 09:13 AM.

  • #2
    I'm naturally rather skeptical, but there are a couple standouts for me.

    1. My chiropractor has worked on two different horses I've had and the horses *really* and demonstrably enjoy it. They sigh, relax, lick and chew, drop their heads. Whatever she does, they like it. Same when she uses the cold laser. I'm not gonna say none of them are quacks, but there's been evidence right in front of me that something about what she does has a positive effect on them.

    2. Arnica gel really helps on bruising.

    The reiki, essential oils, homeopathy, etc. usually gets a big pass from me.
    It's a small world -- unless you gotta walk home.

    Comment


    • #3
      Because sometimes science based medicine doesn't work and you are left with no alternative but to try other things. That said, the only alternative things I use are herbal remedies.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Herbal remedies are not going to be better than scientific medicine. Some of them are also poisonous. There is literally a limitless pool of scientific medical techniques to try.

        Comment


        • #5
          Human belief has little to do with science OR evidence. People believe what they want to believe based on what their "gut" perceptions tell them. Often vets will tell you that no matter what is done it's a binary equation--things will either get better or they get worse, Nature dictates. Now if they were going to get better anyway (like a hoof abscess or leg bruise) but the reiki woo-woo or arnica gel was applied at JUST the right time, it could look like that "did" it, no? And you won't talk a True Believer out of that. Did you know that an enormous amount of what is done in MD's offices to people, every day, is not science-based? It's a combination of conventional wisdom and True Belief, and boy do they get pissed when you call them out on it!

          We live in the most hyper-medicalized time, in the most hyper-medicalized country, on Earth. The vast majority of us have also lived a live almost completely separate from the natural world. We have no baseline understanding of the life cycle, let alone the cycle of injury or disease and recovery. We want results and we want them NOW, and the more fortunate among us will pay almost anyone almost anything they ask to GET that. When strong emotions are involved because a pet or child is involved, so much the more.

          Expect rationality from human beings and you're going to be disappointed--a LOT.

          Comment


          • #6
            The vast majority of mainstream medical practice has little "real science" behind it.
            Be careful you don't toss out the baby with the bath water...
            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
              The vast majority of mainstream medical practice has little "real science" behind it.
              Be careful you don't toss out the baby with the bath water...
              Quite so! Explain to me why we're still doing pelvic exams (proven useless), ordering PAP tests for women who've had hysterectomies and have no cervix, obsessing over cholesterol in women and men who've never had a heart attack (there is no proven correlation except in a narrow age range of men who have) and exhorting people to eat a diet based on legumes and whole grains which are by and large indigestible and unnatural for our species. How 'bout PSA tests, bone density tests, and screening mammograms where it is WELL-KNOWN that the number needed to treat (NNT) ranges from the thousands to INFINITY?

              You see, a very few of us DO read the data, not the marketing . . .

              No one's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but there's a lot of debunked crap there that needs to be weeded out, and even more practiced only because we can, we do, and the system still pays.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Pelvic exams are not "useless". They do not need to be done more than every five years in young women but they DO need to be done because otherwise, you don't find early signs of ovarian cysts, endometriosis, etc. A pelvic exam was how I found OUT there are issues with my ovaries. You aren't just looking for cancer.

                As for pap smears, you can get cancer in the surrounding tissue, again, there is a purpose there and it's an extremely important one.

                Most doctors nowadays don't exhort the legume and grain based diet (in fact most counter it), but the american heart association does, because they are backed by the wheat industry and are not actually a medical group.

                As for the cholesterol, the tide is starting to change there, too. We freaked out about it for 50 years because of outdated scientific studies, newer information has proven that it's unneccessary.

                A mammogram found my grandmother's breast cancer. Which, by the way, would have killed her if left untreated.

                That's the beauty of science--it changes as we find new information

                Comment


                • #9
                  As someone who has had a chiro make a huge difference in her life, I support it. From people who know what the heck they are doing. I've seen a huge change in horses who have had it also.
                  Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Keep in mind that there is more limited evidence based medicine with large animals. You don't get large double blind drug trials. It's too expensive to do and the payout is limited. Many scientific studies has a very small N as far as participants go, so the results may be skewed by other attributes of the specific population. And many treatments are simply off label use done on a hunch that become more widely accepted.

                    I like evidence based medicine as much as the next person, but I also know that some evidence even in the peer reviewed journals is pretty limited.
                    Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                    http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "By definition", I begin
                      "Alternative Medicine", I continue
                      "Has either not been proved to work,
                      Or been proved not to work.
                      You know what they call alternative medicine
                      That’s been proved to work?

                      Medicine."

                      —Tim Minchin, Storm

                      Love me some Tim Minchin!
                      "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mosey_2003 View Post
                        I'm naturally rather skeptical, but there are a couple standouts for me.

                        1. My chiropractor has worked on two different horses I've had and the horses *really* and demonstrably enjoy it. They sigh, relax, lick and chew, drop their heads. Whatever she does, they like it. Same when she uses the cold laser. I'm not gonna say none of them are quacks, but there's been evidence right in front of me that something about what she does has a positive effect on them.
                        I think the question is really *what* they are doing. I think the whole "subluxation" thing, and joints being "out" is basically bunk - but I DO believe that everything in the body is interconnected, so "manipulating" things can relax or release soft tissue that helps the skeletal system seem more aligned. Basically, I think if this works, it's due to therapeutic massage and stretching type effects more so than "adjusting" joints and bones. And those things feel good, so the horses will show signs they enjoy it. I'm uncomfortable with the whole thing just due to the explanations chiros use, and what they sell as the mechanics of the treatment. Just call it "therapeutic stretching and bodywork" and I'd be more on board, LOL.

                        As for the other stuff.... not into it. And of course on FB today my mom was asking fellow reiki believers to send her "energy" remotely. Because... that works. Oh well, if it makes her believe she's feeling better, I guess.
                        "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                        My CANTER blog.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dungrulla View Post
                          Herbal remedies are not going to be better than scientific medicine. Some of them are also poisonous. There is literally a limitless pool of scientific medical techniques to try.
                          I didn't say they were going to be better, just said that sometimes you are left with no alternatives so you try the unconventional. Agree some are poisonous, however, plenty of prescribed medicines (probably most) can be just as dangerous and loaded with side effects.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            ...Which you know about.

                            Why would you waste your money and introduce risk with a herbal preparation that is not going to do anything?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Some herbal remedies do work. I give my mare Mare Magic, it's raspberry leafs, stuff works great. That is a herbal remedy. Same said for Devil's Claw, works well and easier on them than Bute.

                              Same could be said for giving supplements for IR, Cushings, Laminitis, ulcers, etc., supplements are not necessarily scientific medicine that is proven but we all buy them. Technically not herbal but still I would consider it alternative medicine.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                This is another of those times where it feels like people hold up this golden beacon of "SCIENCE" like it's a real, tangible thing, when it's not. Science is a method of exploring the world around us. Just because something is an herb doesn't mean it doesn't have any medicinal value. The scientific method has proven many of them do. Where do you think the first medicines came from? You don't have to slam herbals to make the point that not all of them are effective.

                                Sure, I don't think an herb is probably the right first choice when there is an already effective treatment available, but there are certainly times when the options can be explored.

                                It does nobody any good to just start a "discussion" to bash on certain things.
                                It's a small world -- unless you gotta walk home.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  The fact that people buy them doesn't mean they work. Tons of people buy Rescue Remedy too, which is *literally* just brandy in a bottle with a fancy label on it with a scientifically-notated statistically small chance of there being extract of flower in there too.

                                  People will buy all kinds of snake oil and the horse industry is particularly bad in this regard. 99.9% of supplements are crap. Take quiessence, for example. Does it work? You bet, in horses that have a magnesium deficiency...and then I can grind up some magnesium pills and feed them to my horse, for the same effect at 1/10 the cost.

                                  A lot of these "work" because we are looking for better behavior to justify the cost of giving them to our horses. They're a placebo effect at best.


                                  Sure, some herbs work...peppermint is a very effective antispasmodic. But you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by js View Post
                                    Some herbal remedies do work. I give my mare Mare Magic, it's raspberry leafs, stuff works great. That is a herbal remedy. Same said for Devil's Claw, works well and easier on them than Bute.

                                    Same could be said for giving supplements for IR, Cushings, Laminitis, ulcers, etc., supplements are not necessarily scientific medicine that is proven but we all buy them. Technically not herbal but still I would consider it alternative medicine.
                                    Well we know some herbals work because they are the herbal equivelant of 'traditional' or pharma meds.
                                    Arnica works, because it has the same action as of pharma/traditional meds.

                                    Lots of people use Red Yeast Rice to treat cholesterol, swearing it's the 'natural' equivalent of a statin, which it is, while failing to see that this 'natural' equivalent has the same adverse events as the pharma equivalent. The fear of those AEs is what drove them to the herbal substitute in the first place... *headdesk*

                                    [ok just read what Mosey_2003 write and that's what I mean... and want to add my belief that sometimes the FDA oversight of Pharma is what makes the pharma based treatment superior to the herbal one. Hate the FDA or love them, knowing that the dose is consistent from pill to pill, or that there is full information disceminated with the filled prescription can be the difference between adverse reactions and no adverse reactions.]
                                    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      How, pray tell, do you discover how the so called "alternative" medicine works. As was said by another poster, many animal medicines are not double blind studied for lack of research money, so, the medicines that the pharmacies used are those that they think they can make the most money out of. Science is an ongoing discovery, there is not a fixed universe out there thank God. You also might want to rethink your disgust of herbs, have you any idea from whence many of the medicines derive? Unless you want to leave it up to the pharmaceutical companies which drugs get approved and what don't, you try them, like the current trial going on for a cancer drug called "Oncept", it was not and has not been double blind studied, yet one of our own COTH posters is using it and it is working on her horse. So tell her not to continue because it is not "accepted" by the FDA.
                                      "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        I just said, several times, in fact, that yes, I do know that some herbs work.

                                        **HOWEVER**

                                        Most of them don't. Most of them are expensive snake oil. I am aware that many medicines come from herbal sources. Aspirin is just refined willow bark, for example.

                                        That being said, studies, even in other animals, are better than nothing. We have evidence that firocoxib (previcox) works in horses even without the benefit of clinical trials...because when it comes down to it species differences in mammals aren't THAT huge and NSAIDs (of which previcox is) work for all of them.

                                        Not only that but in order for your vet to legally prescribe something (as opposed to prescribing it for your "dog") it MUST be FDA-approved for use in horses. Many vets skirt this rule but it still exists. There are lots and LOTS of FDA-approved treatments for horses.

                                        You don't need to test every single thing singularly. What you DO need to do is see some evidence of that thing working any of the time. There is, for example, ZERO evidence that substances like aloe juice do anything for ulcers, in horses or any other species. So why waste your money on it?

                                        Comment

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