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Green horses and green riders... do they fit?

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  • Green horses and green riders... do they fit?

    As an experieced horse women, this subject makes me question my self. Green horse and green rider........ I have friends who's daughter is a fairly green rider......,come on she is 11. There trainer has them purchasing a 4 year old gelding who I feel is way to green for her. This is her first horse so of course they are excited. they asked me to come with them and look at him. I said to them and the trainer I feel that a green horse and a green rider result in black and blue.. Her trainer did'nt think I was funny. Am i wrong thinking she needs to have an older, safer horse?

    the horse is an off the track tb. he seems friendly enough but is an handful at times. when she rides him she does not have much control. he is a bit spooky. throws his head, and is pretty racey.
    the rider is so green she can't tack up her own horse, does not uderstand when i told her she was on the wrong diagonol or to put her heals down. and her parents listen to every word the trainer says. the trainer told her that the horse and her can "grow up together"
    her trainer has her lunge the horse for an hor and a half before she rides. the trainer thinks by tiring him out he will be quieter for her. this trainer has a bad rep and i wish they would swich.
    Last edited by happylabs; Jan. 2, 2009, 12:37 AM.

  • #2
    Well, I've ridden dead quiet 3 and 4 year olds and psycho 20 year olds, so age isn't always the factor. Normally I do tend to agree with the rule you stated.

    Has the 4 year old already been shown? Are they keeping the 4 year old in full training with the trainer? It could work but I certainly wouldn't want to see an 11 year old taking a 4 year old into the ring his first times or on his first trail rides. Those things need to be done by an older teen/adult. If they are going to continue to invest in training and the 4 year old is naturally quiet, it may work but I don't blame you for being skeptical.

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree that it depends....as a general rule, I think the younger and less experienced the rider, the older and more experienced the horse should be.

      But, we bought my green 12 year old son a green 4 year old Paint gelding, and two weeks later he carried the American flag at a lope into the main arena at the California state fair...so, if you get the right horse it can work.

      Dumb luck, maybe, but he was a great horse.

      Comment


      • #4
        No, I don't believe so. In some instances with the right green rider, the right green horse and most importantly the right trainer, it works. But that's like 10% of the time.

        There's a girl in my barn and she is like so many others I have known. Young teen, green...trainer insisted she buy this green horse with a lot of potential. Has a couple bad falls off it, went about 20 steps back in riding confidence and ability, now horse sits in pasture unridden and girl struggles to ride 29 yr old school horse.

        It just happens way too often. Trainers advise young & fancy over old & not as fancy/good moving/etc. Fine when you're experienced, not so much when you are green.
        Originally posted by barka.lounger
        u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

        we see u in gp ring in no time.

        Comment


        • #5
          it's FAR better to be UNDERmatched than OVERmatched. Not only for the sake of the girls confidence and joy of riding, but for her SAFTEY. Unfortunately, and I HOPE this isn't the case but more than likely it is, that the trainer was making commission off the horse's sale to them, and/or thinks, well hey, the girl will need more lessons or maybe they will put the horse into training with me and I can make more money.

          Comment


          • #6
            Been there, done that and was 41 at the time. Never did get to where I wanted to go.
            It doesn't sound like a good match--there are quiet 4 year olds but this doesn't sound like one. And lunging for 1.5 hours is only gonna made for one very fit horse, who is probably
            full of it, and will riding with a helluva lot of work. Good luck in changing their minds or getting the pair to a better trainer.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think it depends on the horse and the kid. Most of the riders at my barn started off on greenies because they wanted something that would win, but didn't have 50K sitting around to purchase something made. Right now, I have a 12yo kid that has been riding a year and a half. She started off on a medium pony that was a typical pony; usually quiet, but had his moments. He was purchased in March and was outgrown by September. He was sold and the family purchased an unbroke, abused, 5yo large pony that was fancy, but about half crazy. The kid broke the pony herself (I've sat on the pony once just to hack her around). Of course, the large dumped her a lot at the beginning (more from spooking at things the rider was doing such as taking off a jacket, etc). This summer, things really clicked for the kid and the pony and now the pony is turning into a packer that can take a joke.

              The first picture is June of 2007.

              The second picture is Sept of 2007 (see how fast the kid grew).

              The third picture is the green large at one of her first shows this year.

              The fourth picture was taken in October of 2008 (the pony was under saddle less than a year at this time).

              The last picture is of the kid and the pony at the VHSA Finals doing the Special Hunters. The pony had been under saddle one year almost to the day. She jumped around clean and even did a few changes. The kid had been riding about 18 months when this picture was taken.
              Attached Files
              #JusticeForSunshine

              Comment


              • #8
                Well I can speak from my personal experience. When I was 10 my parents purchased me a coming four year old TB. My trainer had found him, and to be honest he was dead quiet, I was with a good trainer and would be in a situation of taking lessons 4-5 times a week, and her schooling him as well. He had shown a lot on the line so he was pretty quiet and nothing fazed him. However we had a tough year when he turned 5. I'm pretty sure I fell off every time I sat on that horse for the better part of a year. I was lucky because I had a trainer to school him, as well as some nice made horses that I had the opportunity to ride. The long and the short of it, if my sister hadn't bought a saint of a mare that I could ride I probably would have quit that year. But now I can say that I still have that horse, he is my forever horse and I think he walks on water. My parents wanted to find me a nice horse but didn't have the money to buy one already made.

                I will say it was probably the stupidest thing they'd ever done. It worked out miraculously in the end, but I wouldn't advice any parent to go down that route. Thankfully my parents weren't very horsey so they weren't around to see how much dirt I actually ate that year. I will also say that I wasn't as green as the girl you are talking about. I had down my basics and was successfully navigating 2'9"-3' courses by that time. And it still sucked.

                Here's the bad man himself http://pets.webshots.com/photo/13543...71133911tgFBLj
                All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by OverOxers View Post
                  Well I can speak from my personal experience. When I was 10 my parents purchased me a coming four year old TB. My trainer had found him, and to be honest he was dead quiet, I was with a good trainer and would be in a situation of taking lessons 4-5 times a week, and her schooling him as well. He had shown a lot on the line so he was pretty quiet and nothing fazed him. However we had a tough year when he turned 5. I'm pretty sure I fell off every time I sat on that horse for the better part of a year. I was lucky because I had a trainer to school him, as well as some nice made horses that I had the opportunity to ride. The long and the short of it, if my sister hadn't bought a saint of a mare that I could ride I probably would have quit that year. But now I can say that I still have that horse, he is my forever horse and I think he walks on water. My parents wanted to find me a nice horse but didn't have the money to buy one already made.

                  I will say it was probably the stupidest thing they'd ever done. It worked out miraculously in the end, but I wouldn't advice any parent to go down that route. Thankfully my parents weren't very horsey so they weren't around to see how much dirt I actually ate that year. I will also say that I wasn't as green as the girl you are talking about. I had down my basics and was successfully navigating 2'9"-3' courses by that time. And it still sucked.

                  Here's the bad man himself http://pets.webshots.com/photo/13543...71133911tgFBLj


                  Had to laugh at that pic... it's adorable!!! He has this expression of "heeelp. meeee."
                  "People ask me 'will I remember them if I make it'. I ask them 'will you remember me if I don't?'"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wouldn't say they mix well... but it can be a good learning experience.

                    I was 14 when I bought my first horse. Had been riding for about 3 years but mostly western and I was still very green at english riding. Started working at a barn when I was 14, 4 days a week. My parents told me that I could get a horse if I paid for it and its board. They didn't really think I'd do it Wrong for them! So I worked for board 5 days a week and bought a green, 12 yr old TB/QH gelding who had an old back injury and had sat for 3+ years, and during that time was passed along to at least 5 different people. He didn't tie, didn't clip (found that out after he almost killed me, literally), and had sat untouched. But my "trainer" (no longer with her for a variety of reasons) convinced me that she would turn him into some expensive, well trained show horse who would do 3'6 and blah blah blah. His owner would take payments on him... so I paid $1200 off over a period of 6 months. Come to find out after the fact, he also had a rearing history. Thanks for disclosing that.... He was in poor shape (not neglectful thin but def. needed work): http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...arch-MILO3.jpg

                    Anyway, I sat on him once during the first year I owned him and my "trainer" never did hold up her end of the deal. I worked 5 days a week (at 14 was putting in 25 hrs a week for a $200 field board spot. ) and she always made excuses on why she couldn't work with him. She sat on him once for 5 minutes, when my parents asked to see his progress (they are non-horsey).

                    I moved him a year after buying him to a new barn and started working with him myself... let me tell you- green + green = black and blue. Started him in the roundpen... our first ride: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...=Milotrot1.jpg
                    I also got him to straight tie and cross tie quietly (he used to go up on the cross ties) as well as clip without issue. He does have loading issues though.
                    Got him going quietly in the roundpen and moved to the arena... he was STRONG and rank and I was way out of my league... but I had no other horse to ride, couldn't haul him out to a trainer (was in the process of trying to find one to travel to me) and so I dealt with it... First arena ride: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...nterpullup.jpg He was that way for a good month or two- just overall jiggy, light up front, trotting when I wanted him to walk, cantering when I wanted him to trot etc.
                    In April 2007 we got a new BM/trainer at the barn I boarded at... and I started lessons with her (she is still my current trainer). Shortly after we started lessons: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...april28072.jpg . We really worked on quieting him down, which took a LONG time... Let me tell you, I ended many rides in tears. There were a lot of times when I said that I was going to sell him, and actually did put him up for sale but ended up keeping him because I didn't want to pass him off to yet another person and give up on him.
                    Milo and I learned a lot together... I ate the dirt more times than I can count, usually my fault, occasionally his .
                    In July of 2007, we went to our first jumper schooling show (a last minute decision... we went down to watch originally and then decided to ride). He was fantastic! http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...ubiconj245.jpg I ate the dirt once... but we ended up getting 7th out of a good 15-20 riders because a lot of horses were spooking at the jumps and Milo just flew over them all (which surprised me, because we just had plain white jumps at home) http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...biconj2411.jpg. Most of the people were either experienced riders on green beans or kids on made ponies. They were tiny but it was a big deal to me and I was proud of him.
                    In November 2007 we went to our first event (elementary level), and I was nervous and tense, and so was he... I did a face plant at the first fence and he had a tour of the XC course... but I got back on and we made it around with a couple of refusals- but still, we made it around! I was pleased with him... it was our first event- and he really did take care of me. http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...Event4nice.jpg
                    We kept up with the lessons, and kept improving... had a few set backs... but we got through it. In December 2007, about a year after I started riding him, this was how we looked: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...urrent=008.jpg
                    Then in June we headed to our first BN event. I wasn't as nervous and our dressage score improved a bit http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...=dressage2.jpg. He was strong in warm-up for SJ but that's normally how he is and I thought we'd have a good SJ round. Unfortunately, I was stupid and didn't eat much that day... and my hypoglycemia plus the insane heat (100+ that day) resulted in me getting light headed and coming off on the way to the second fence (I remember cantering towards the fence, and then the next thing I remember is me hanging off his side and hitting the ground). Totally not his fault- he was going pretty well for me... just my stupidity got in the way. Broke my ankle, had surgery, and spent 3 months on crutches. He had a total of 4 months off... I was concerned about how he would go after that, but he's been great! This was in November 2008, 2 years after starting to ride him:http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...=milojump2.jpg

                    We still have frustrating rides, but not nearly as many as we did in the beginning. But Mi tries hard... he really does. And he has really come a long way. My trainer has helped us a ton... but we still have a long way to go. But you know what? I have learned a lot, both about myself and my horse. What he likes, his weird buttons etc. Funny thing is, he puts up with me and my somewhat crappy riding- goes really well for me. Yet if any of my friends who can ride well get on him, he goes horribly for them. He can still be really strong for me but I'm used to it and I don't notice it until I get on another horse who isn't as strong. And lately, I've had to actually ride him with a dressage whip and use leg pressure to get him to move, which is a shock But I'm proud of my boy, and I'm glad I stuck with him. I had the opportunity to buy a made, been-there-done-that dressage/event horse who I had previously ridden, for dirt cheap. But I couldn't afford 2 horses. It was either have the made horse and sell my gelding, or keep my gelding and deal with teh problems we were having... but I kept my gelding. I couldn't bring myself to dump him on to yet another home.


                    Wow, thats a really long post Sorry! You all probably didn't want to know that much haha. I'm just really proud of my little gelding though and had to share. To summerize, green + green, IMO, is generally a bad idea. But if the kid is willing to stick with it and realize that there will be many bumps along the road, well then go for it.
                    "People ask me 'will I remember them if I make it'. I ask them 'will you remember me if I don't?'"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The situation that the OP describes sounds like the disasters we have all seen.

                      That being said, it can work, but really depends on what "green" means. My first horse was green to the hunter world. She had been a western pleasure QH and trailhorse all her 13 years before me. I had been riding for 3 years, and only once a week lessons, and the occasional half lease over the summer.

                      So she was green in the sense that she hadn't jumped before, hadn't been taught to do lead changes when asked, etc. I was green in not having many opportunities to get myself out of situations...always had a trainer there to help me through problems. While I still took once a week lessons with her, I had 6 other days of the week that I was on my own.

                      In my situation, it was great to have my own "project", and for the 2 of us to learn together, BUT she was 13, quiet, sane, and I was just trying to polish her and take her to local hunter shows, not taking a 3 or 4 yo OTTB straight off the track and bringing them along. She had her moments (dirtiest stop I've ever ridden) but was completely safe to be on and work around otherwise. I simply didn't jump unless I was in a lesson or my trainer was there, until she started to behaver herself more often
                      Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I also say it depends, but in general, green on green is a bad idea, especially for the horse, that should have a chance to learn the basics easily and properly from an experienced trainer.

                        Once a horse is further along, not a green one any more and what that horse needs is miles and further training, there may be more leeway there to give a greener rider experience, under good supervision, to bringing a nice, quiet horse along.
                        I think that is where some of those successful stories are from.

                        Too many horses with problems we got to retrain came from people that thought how hard is horse training, lets do it ourselves.
                        U necked horses that had never learned to move correctly, buckers, rearers, bolters, horses that were asked to do things without the people having any idea of what they were doing and the results were balky, confused, resistent horses.
                        Lucky if no one was hurt in the process.
                        You can see that in youtube every day.

                        I never thought that was fair to the horses, when a few months with a trainer would have sent them on their way with the skills to handle the less experienced people working with them and a few months with an instructor would have given the riders some firm basics so they didn't unintendedly abused their horses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If the young girl is so green she can't even tack then I think it is VERY premature for this trainer to even suggest they buy a horse! I agree it depends on a case by case basis, but in this case...I don't think they should be buying a horses period, let alone a green one! Without the very basic fundamentals under her this is not only dangerous but could be a serious self-esteem and confidence buster. For BOTH the horse and rider
                          I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

                          Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by happylabs View Post
                            the trainer told her that the horse and her can "grow up together" ... this trainer has a bad rep and i wish they would swich.
                            I see that "they can grow up together" crap from unscrupulous horse traders on craigslist ads all the time. The trainer sounds like his/her only interest is what he/she can get out of the deal. I agree with OP: they should find another trainer before somebody gets hurt.
                            www.JaneeneWilliams.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It entirely depends on the horse and situation. MY first horse was an 8 year old greenie. He was "broke" but unschooled. Bucked the girl that was going to buy her off, requiring her to get pins and rods in her ankle. He and I got along great. Yes, he dragged me to the fence more times then i care to remember. Yes one time he lost steering and body-slammed into another horse that was just standing there, but overall he was a laid-back kind of guy. Just uneducated.

                              2 1/2 years down the line.... he and I came Grand Champions year end in training hunter at our (big) local schooling show. We've had my 85 year old grandmother on him, and he didnt dare TWITCH for fear of hurting her. His personality hasd remained the same...his schooling has just increased..


                              A kid at our barn was 8 going on 9 when she purchased her first horse...a 3 year old OTTB. Green on Green?.....yes. Black and Blue?......eh at times. But he's perfectly safe for her, refuses to go any faster then a cute little hunter lope and they have and will continue to "grow together." He wasnt out to kill her, just didn't know what he was doing. That is the difference.


                              Again i repeat....an education can be changed for the better.....personality your stuck with. Get a horse with a great personality, and the schooling will come. Get a horse with a crap personality, and regardless of schooling, you'll still have a problem.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think it really depends...all of my horses have been green. My first horse was an OTTB mare who I kept till she died...had a few other green beans including a couple of track horses..and then got a paint who I broke and trained....it was a great learning experience...took me longer than most to get where I got, but it was fun and he was a good boy. My current horse is also one who I started as a youngster although now that I'm older I paid someone to do 30 days on him first because I didn't want to take the risk...this one is by far the most athletic horse I've ever sat on and it took awhile to learn how to ride him...

                                It can work, but not without a person who spends a lot of time watching people train youngsters and who is dedicated to being there every day to do something with the horse...the person also needs to be working with a trainer and be the type that is able to set boundaries with a green bean...

                                Greenies is all I've ever ridden...now after 20 years of riding, I finally have the opportunity of riding a school master and I cant wait!
                                For things to do in Loudoun County, visit: www.365thingstodoloudoun.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I'm with the "it depends" group, but I must say I do think Green + Green + BAD TRAINER is an epic disaster waiting to happen.

                                  I did get my first OTTB when I was 10 - and he was *not* an easy horse. I spent the first 2 years getting launched at least once a day, sometimes as many as 3 times. BUT I had two good trainers, and ultimately he qualified me for Finals, although we didn't get to go.

                                  It can be done, BUT: the kid has to be sensible and the trainers have to be double-smart.
                                  "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by happylabs View Post
                                    the horse is an off the track tb. he seems friendly enough but is an handful at times. when she rides him she does not have much control. he is a bit spooky. throws his head, and is pretty racey. . .
                                    the rider is so green she can't tack up her own horse, does not uderstand when i told her she was on the wrong diagonol or to put her heals down. . . .
                                    her trainer has her lunge the horse for an hor and a half before she rides.
                                    Wow. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, all right. I think it's more than likely the girl will wind up being put off riding. Unless they manage to cripple the horse first with all that lunging.

                                    Either way, I'd think the trainer would have been better off to steer the girl towards a suitable horse so she'd be more likely to keep her as a student. But these types always seem to attract more students somehow. There's at least one near me. She's an absolute horror but the non-horsey parents just drop the kids off at the gate and have no clue what goes on in their absence. Of course there are no children of horsey parents in attendance.
                                    I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Green horse and green rider........

                                      Can be a disaster, can even be dangerous.

                                      My horse and I. Bad tack choice, saddle slipped riding in indoor arena. Horse was great though the situation. I broke my collar bone.

                                      Four plus years later, still have Holly and it couldn't be better. We have three horses, hers, mine and ours. once told by a trainer that many people after a major accident just give up, sell the horse or both. Lots of work, assistance with both my horse and myself, we now ride bareback on the trails around the place were we board.

                                      It's not the end of the world, green on green. But getting the proper help and assistance from someone in the know is advised.
                                      The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

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                                      • #20
                                        Usually the rider fits nicely into a hospital bed and the horse fits into a slaughter truck headed for Mexico. Somebody needs their head examined before its too late for everyone.
                                        McDowell Racing Stables

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