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They have caught Saddam Hussein

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  • #81
    Hey - we can all agree on one thing. Perhaps our people are a little bit closer to coming home. For many of us they are family members and/or friends.

    Hope all of them come back safe and sound.

    "I have observed in women of her type a tendency to regard all athletics as inferior forms of fox-hunting”- Evelyn Waugh

    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling

    Comment


    • #82
      Phaxxton,
      YOU didn't label anyone unpatriotic, but on the HUGE war thread, when it began back in March, those of us who voiced our disagreement with either the process or the war itself, were indeed called unpatriotic here by many of the war/GWB supporters. I think that is what the poster was referring to.

      Whatever the reasons France, Germany, Russia had for staying out, I still maintain it was their RIGHT to do so and we would want the same for our country/leader. And much of the rest of the world DID question Bush's rush to war without giving more than an wink and a nod to diplomatically trying to build more support pre-war. After all, what was the damn hurry?

      But YAY! They got him and now I hope we can redouble our efforts to find the REAL threat to us, Bin Laden.

      Laurie
      Laurie

      Comment


      • #83
        Laurie P asked -- After all, what was the damn hurry?

        I'll take a stab at it. Hussein was funding Palestinian suicide bombers. Threatening his neighbors with the veiled dual threat of chemical/bio programs and aggressive regional politics. He was encouraging radicalism among the younger demographic in modern Arab nations. In short, he was one major destabilizing factor in the region.

        Future peace in the Middle East and rest of the world DEPENDS on the development of moderate, western looking governments in the Middle East. Western looking in that they bring the strength of their cultures to play fully in global economic development -- not just the trade of $ for oil as in the past.

        How do you kill Al Queda?? Dry up their pool of recruits. How do you do that?? By solving the problems in the Middle East that currently cause most young Arabs to feel they have no hope of better life. Al Queda and Hussein encourage them to feel angry, and then capitalize on that anger. We need remove the anger through economic development. It will be a long process, buth the first step is removing the political obstacles to the development and stability of moderate Arab governments.

        It's easy to say war is bad. Harder to articulate a feasible alternative policy that addresses the problem. Why Now? We waited 10 years. I don't think we can afford another 10.

        Comment


        • #84
          I really hope the trial is public and I dearly hope that Saddam Hussein starts naming names. A lot of those names are going to sound mighty familiar to the Bush Administration. Donald Rumsfeld, anyone?

          Let's not forget that the US government helped Saddam become Saddam. Armed him to the teeth, fed him all sorts of information, gave him chemicals weapons to use in the Iran-Iraq war. Probably not the best idea in hindsight but the US had other goals at the time.

          So they've caught him and now it's time to get the US troops home. And it's time to stop occupying Iraq and really give it over to the Iraqi people, the majority of whom oppose the US occupation. Let the Iraqi people decide how they want to run their country -- for example, do they really want to allow 100% foreign ownership of businesses in Iraq? But the US-led transition team didn't consult the Iraqi citizenry when they made this rather important change in the law.

          And honestly, I look forward to the return of the troops. They've taken far too much abuse.

          Comment


          • #85
            It's not time to stop occupying Iraq.

            They are just starting to rebuild institutions. Police, Intelligence Service, Military, Judicial, etc. are all just starting. Ready to take on more responsibility? YES -- and they've started that process (it just doesn't get any press - not flashy enough for the media) If we leave now, we WILL be responsible for their failure.

            Will we leave. Yes, when they're government is established and will be stable.

            WWe took on responsibility when we invaded. We're responsible until they're institutions can take over in a stable fashion. The test isn't whether they like us today. It is whether they have a stable government in 10 years.

            As to foreign ownership of business? Many countries do allow it -- It encourages investment in the country. Something sorely needed in Iraq.

            Comment


            • #86
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
              All *you* might need is Jim Baker. As for GW and I, we need more.

              (We - err, I - needed a dictionary for neocon, too, but it was not in my dictionary. )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              LOL, while *I* might not need Jim, and *you* might not need Jim, I think it is VERY safe to say that GW has not been shy about his affections and feelings in this regard.

              Neocon stands for neoconservative. It's just another school of thought in foreign policy that evolved from Kennedy's "Best and Brightest" cadre as opposed to the Political Realism school that defined most administrations in the post WWII era.

              "I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan
              Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

              Comment


              • #87
                JER/jr- On NPR this afternoon a reporter use the word "occupy" in reference to our presence in Iraq, wrong word NPR reporter. FTR, we are not occupying Iraq, we are over there to remove a madman and those who are in kahoots with him.

                We haven't forced the Iraqi culture to change and observe our western ways. We haven't punished the civilian or denied him basic food/water/shelter/medical needs.

                Just needed to offer my comments to keep the discussion correct. If we were occupying Iraq it would be a whole different pony.

                SLW
                "The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

                Comment


                • #88
                  SLW -- I'm not sure where you got your definition of occupation.

                  The term occupation is correct in this case. We are militarily occupying, controlling, and setting up a new governmental system.

                  The fact that we are not directly forcing cultural change has nothing to do with it. By forcing government change, we are likely affecting some amount of cultural change in the long run. We are forcing governmental change.

                  The term occupation was applied to Germany and Japan after WWII -- If it was correct in that case, it's correct in this one.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Compare our occupation of Iraq right now to Poland in 1939 and France in 1940 when Germany invadedand Russia occupying Afganastan in 1979. That's occupation.

                    America and coalition troops have not forced a change in religion, education, denied health care, etc. to the civilian population.

                    We went in to find and remove a specific target in Iraq, not make it America East.

                    SLW
                    "The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      I agree -- but the term occupation has NOTHING to do with our intent. It describes the situation. You are reacting to the negative connotation of the word, not the actual meaning.

                      I support our actions in Iraq. However, we are occupying the country. The fact that we feel our actions are justified, or that we think we acting with good intent, does not change the fact that we are occupiers. It is important that we NOT forget that. While perhaps well meaning, our actions have consequences and we must work everyday to make sure that we do the right thing.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We haven't forced the Iraqi culture to change and observe our western ways. We haven't punished the civilian or denied him basic food/water/shelter/medical needs.
                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Of course, the culture clash is inevitable. Or, as a US Army captain told a UK newspaper: "This is freedom and freedom can mean different things, and in this case freedom means we are going to have to enforce our values on them."

                        A great quote, for sure and it's rather jingoistic when taken out of context. But the captain was referring to the US military's attempt to ban smoking by doctors on duty (yikes!!) in Iraq's hospitals. This is a cultural change -- but more important, it's a change supporting good health and health care for all humans regardless of cultural heritage. It's just very ironic to hear it explained in terms of 'freedom.'

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Let me preface this by saying that I am a dork. I am a dork that *should* be studying for exams but I am a burned out dork. So instead I will ramble on COTH. I extend a most humble pre-emptive apology.

                          Let us hope that our government has the foresight to make Iraq an America east. It doesn't necessarily have to be an america, but it does have to be founded on the "liberalist" political theories. Mature, liberal democracies do not fight with each other. IMO this "democratic peace" is a result of two things: a, governments based on liberal principles have too much in common with each other to fight, and b, the value premise of a liberal democracy is too ingrained in the citizens' ideaology that they wouldn't stand for a ruler's agency in initiating a war with another mature democracy.

                          Now, I don't think that the government believes that, now that Saddam Hussein is removed, and the Baath party is very much weakened, a free Iraqi election would yeild that country's very own Texas Yalie with a penchant for morning jogs and downtime and the ranch, but sometimes I do think that it is so bent on the "democracy" part that it fails to realize that democracy is really just a consequential, not fundamental, part of the democratic peace.

                          Our government, especially (though CERTAINLY not exclusively) the current one, seems to think that the state of Iraq and Afghanistan and North Korea, etc. comes from superior opression, when I would posit that it is a result of cyclical superior opression and internal elevation. If you had elections tomorrow, the Iraqis wouldn't vote for a "liberal democratic" leader because they are not liberal democrats. If left to their own devices they probably wouldn't enfranchise the Kurds. They would vote for a fundamentalist Arab. the result of a democratic election might be a Baath party dictator, whose allegience to the US would be limited soley to his indebtedness for elevating his station; allegiences based on promotion are inversely related to promotion. When the new ruler gainst the power of his government, he will no longer need to be loyal to US, and will have nothing idealogically in common with the US. In 10-20 years we will be EXACTLY back where we are.

                          "Finishing the job" is CERTAINLY not disposing of Saddam Hussein, although it's a good first step. "Finishing the job" is not instituting an elected ruler. "finishing the job" is quite specifically restructuring not just Iraqi government, but Iraq itself. instituting FACTIONS, so that the Kurds are not a 10% minority that gets picked on, but rather so that there are several groups that identify enough internally to resist against tyrrany, and enough with other factions to band against that tyranny, but not enough to gang up on a faction they (collectively) don't identify with. Also, the US needs to take a good look at its own government, and realize that we are not a *democracy* but rather a *republic* and stop using "democracy" as a buzz word. Democracy is anathema to most educated people; it's basically mob rule. Alexander Hamilton himself HATED democracy.

                          So I'm thrilled that they caught Saddam Hussein. I don't think that this didn't need to happen--I disagree with the timing and I disagree with the whole preemtive thing and I disagree with the lack of involvment of the global community and I disagree with the motives and explanations used to justify it, but I don't think this didn't need to happen. I just really hope that the beginning isn't confused with the end, and I hope that we finish the job now, so that many many many more americans don't have to die in another ten years.

                          BoR--resident Stupid Child
                          Um, I don\'t spell check. Deal with it.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            box-of-rox, i don't think you are a dork, i think you are a very astute young woman who is headed towards several years of great education and a career doing something important! i really don't care to read most of the posts on this thread because who knows how educated they are, but yours just glows with knowledge and a great understanding of the way the world works, especially impressive for someone your age. keep on being a dork, please! you rock. good luck on exams and don't work too hard

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              That was great news to wake up to - I hope it was a boost for the troop's morale.

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Gosh, I don't even know why I'm posting yet again on this thread... but one thing did catch my eye reading through it this time... Everyone thinks that Bin Laden is the "real" threat to America. Unfortunately, that's just not true. He seems to be the face that everyone associates with 9-11, but the reality is that he had less to do with Al Queda's operations than many believe. In reality, he is somewhat of a "consultant" - helps plan ideas, but not implement them. People seem to think that he is the leader of Al Queda and the Mastermind behind all the terrorism, but that's not entirely true. Al Queda is a group of loosely, emphasis on LOOSELY, connected splinter groups. It's in their interest NOT to have a leader and not to be banded strongly together. If they are splintered and separated into small, independent groups, they're more dangerous. Bin Laden is not keeping Al Queda together, he's not the leader, and he doesn't have any power. He's a consultant to the Al Queda powers for lack of a better description. The threat to the US isn't going to stop when we find Bin Laden, in fact it may spark stark retaliation. But he is a start. I don't mean to downplay completely his role in 9-11, but it's incorrect to say that he's the real threat to the US.

                                If you want my opinion (and that plus a quarter will get you a local call ) the biggest threat to the US is probably Kim Jong Il of North Korea... But of course, he's the hardest target and the most difficult to take from power. I'm NOT advocating us going in and invading any other country, but I certainly believe that invading N Korea would pose a huge, immediate threat to the US. I could go on and on about North Korea, but that's so ridiculously OT, I think I'll stop here.

                                Okay, I think I've contributed more than enough to this thread...

                                To all of you with friends and family overseas, my thoughts and prayers for their safe return.

                                God bless.


                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
                                  .

                                  Let us hope that our government has the foresight to make Iraq an America east. It doesn't necessarily have to be an america, but it does have to be founded on the "liberalist" political theories. Mature, liberal democracies do not fight with each other. IMO this "democratic peace" is a result of two things: a, governments based on liberal principles have too much in common with each other to fight, and b, the value premise of a liberal democracy is too ingrained in the citizens' ideaology that they wouldn't stand for a ruler's agency in initiating a war with another mature democracy.
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Ok, this thread is addicting. I want to say that this is where I disagree with the American policy toward rebuilding Iraq. Iraq CANNOT become a stable government if we make it America East. We have to understand that our government works for US, but it's not for everyone. We need to let the Iraqis have a LOT of say in how their government is set up if we expect them to keep this government and make it work. Yes, they'll need a representative democracy, but they need to have their own type. They are the ones who know their culture, they are the ones who have to run the government and they are the ones who have to live under it.

                                  We have to accept the fact that this Iraqi government is everuntally going to be independent and self-sufficient. It's going to disagree with America sometimes, maybe a lot. And that's ok. This is for the Iraqi people and the stabilization of the region/world. It's not about building an American empire.


                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Compare our occupation of Iraq right now to Poland in 1939 and France in 1940 when Germany invadedand Russia occupying Afganastan in 1979. That's occupation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    We (America) occupied Germany after the war, as we did in Japan (of course, we did quite a lot of 'modernization' in Japan, so yes, I suppose we DID 'Americanize' the place) - we didn't leave until after we were SURE the gov'n't was stable, etc. We had good intentions - rebuilding the country, stabilizing the economy, and so forth (sound familiar?). We were an occupying force then, we are an occupying force now. Doesn't matter what our intentions are, we're occupying the country.

                                    I just have to wonder what's going to happen if the Iraqi people decide a less secular/more fundamentalist government a la Iran is the way to go. I don't think vaulting into democracy is the way to go, but we'll certainly have a big headache if we wind up with another hard-line theocracy.

                                    Oh well - we're in for the long haul now, one can only hope that the outcome is worth the loss of life.

                                    'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Albion - keep in mind that America just isn't going to allow a theocracy or any form of government other than a representative democracy in Iraq - not if we're rebuilding it...


                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        HEY!!!! They showed horses in Iraq on one of the news clips tonight that went over footage of what is happening over there..

                                        Hope all the horses are OK after all this ends...



                                        http://www.foxpointefarm.com
                                        http://www.go-sho.org
                                        [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
                                        [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com

                                        Comment


                                        • 9-11 changed all the rules.

                                          Saddam is but one brick in the wall that keeps peace out of a region that is rife with war and violence, a region where the 9-11 plan originated. And sometimes when you remove a brick from a wall, other bricks in that wall fall on their own.

                                          I, for one, am glad that particular brick is removed. Time will tell what other bricks fell on their own, and which if any needed to be removed.

                                          I won't go into political debate here again. I refuse to be called a moron because I believe in what our government has done or is doing. I refuse to be called a lemming because I think GW has more sincerity in his pinky finger than most of Washington combined. I refuse to be told I am wrong when I state that Americans who go over seas (but not here, at home on our shores) and bash our government are unpatiotic. I never said you have to blindly follow your government in order to be a patriot. I never called anyone a moron or a lemming because they believe differently than I. I believe everyone in this country has a right to their own opinions, and to express them, but that everyone needs to remember that their rights end when they infringe on the rights of others.

                                          Good news for our soldiers. Great news for the new Iraqi government. Outstanding news for the people of Iraq. May God, or Allah, bless all of them, and lead them to the right decisions regarding the disposition of this evil man.

                                          PS - Tell me, why is it that Alec Baldwin still lives in the US when he swore he would never be able to live here if GW were elected President?

                                          ********
                                          I'm just the mom.

                                          Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

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