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Rant: My retired pony is emaciated. I'm livid.

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  • #21
    Don't judge the reaction too harshly. I see the same in my line of work VERY often- it's a stress/shock reaction. Personally I tend to smile or laugh in high stress situations. It's not voluntary- it's just the body/mind doing what it can to keep you going through a nasty time.

    Jingles for the OP's pony!

    Comment


    • #22
      So you've seen this pony TWICE in the past two years? How many threads have been on this forum over the years from people who lease a horse out or sell it and find the horse's condition has dramatically deteriorated after only months?

      I learned a long time ago that if my horses are not in my direct care they need to be seen by myself on a frequent, regular basis, even if they are in the care of a "professional".

      In the end, I am the owner and I am responsible for my horse's condition. If you cannot see the pony yourself regularly, I think you need to consider selling him, giving him away or euthanizing him. If the barn he is in cannot manage to communicate that there is an issue concerning his weight, can they be trusted to rehabilitate him or medicate him for any possible medical issues?
      "You can't fix stupid"- Ron White

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      • #23
        Originally posted by cutter99 View Post
        If you cannot see the pony yourself regularly, I think you need to consider selling him, giving him away or euthanizing him.
        That's a little extreme! I board retired horses and some of my owners live far away (one is in Wyoming). There are ways for the barns to keep owners in touch. In my own case I have a Facebook page where I post pictures of the horses. Onthebit's farm has a detailed blog with many pictures. No need to euthanize!
        https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
        Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
        www.PeonyVodka.com

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        • #24
          Originally posted by SMF11 View Post
          That's a little extreme! I board retired horses and some of my owners live far away (one is in Wyoming). There are ways for the barns to keep owners in touch. In my own case I have a Facebook page where I post pictures of the horses. Onthebit's farm has a detailed blog with many pictures. No need to euthanize!
          Agree. Where my horse was boarded some of the horses have owners who are too far away to visit, who left their horses with the owners/BM because they know they can trust them to take the best care of them.
          Those barns are out there.

          Perhaps something has changed that this barn OP is at is no longer a trustworthy place... or maybe it never was.
          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

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          • #25
            Horses can go south quickly. One of my Older TB's suddenly dropped a lot of weight and was eating inconsistently. We had the vet pull blood work. We found he was in renal failure. We put him down three days later.

            It can happen and its not negligence but just old age. My horse by the way was 22.
            A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
              Perhaps something has changed that this barn OP is at is no longer a trustworthy place... or maybe it never was.
              I would be interested to know what the vet's findings are/will be. It sounds like he and his pasture mate had hay when the OP visited, and the OP also said he had a good appetite, so I'm assuming he was eating. I don't know if the barn feeds grain or not, but many ponies don't eat grain. I'd he has been at this barn for a while, than either the barn has changed or something has happened with the pony's internal health. If it were me, I'd too would pursue testing rather than just feeding more. He could have a health problem keeping him from maintaining his weight.
              The barn should have communicated the issue to OP, and perhaps they are just not feeding enough, but I'd also be suspicious of a health problem.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by cutter99 View Post
                So you've seen this pony TWICE in the past two years? How many threads have been on this forum over the years from people who lease a horse out or sell it and find the horse's condition has dramatically deteriorated after only months?

                I learned a long time ago that if my horses are not in my direct care they need to be seen by myself on a frequent, regular basis, even if they are in the care of a "professional".

                In the end, I am the owner and I am responsible for my horse's condition. If you cannot see the pony yourself regularly, I think you need to consider selling him, giving him away or euthanizing him. If the barn he is in cannot manage to communicate that there is an issue concerning his weight, can they be trusted to rehabilitate him or medicate him for any possible medical issues?
                I have to address the bolded part. Yes, there are barns out there that will take your money and not care for your horse, but there are lots of good barns out there too. But they aren't on COTH because no one feels the need to complain about them.

                Some of my retirees are from our local area, but the majority are not. Some of their owners live several states away. Some of them live on a different continent for various reasons (military, one is married to a professional athlete, job transfer to a different country, etc.) I don't think all of these people need to give away or euthanize their horses (they can't sell them, they are all retired for a reason) because they can't live ten minutes away from them at this point in their lives.

                The fear mongering on COTH gets out of control at times. If you can believe it some boarding barns can actually provide better care than an owner could simply because the knowledge base of the BO/BM is high. My hubby has spent most of his professional career designing and balancing feeds, I have no doubt he has more knowledge about how to feed a horse than any of our clients have (and some of them are quite competent horse people!).
                www.retiredhorses.com
                Blogging about daily life on the retirement farm: http://paradigmfarms.blogspot.com/
                Paradigm Farms on Facebook

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                • #28
                  I have a feeling we're not going to hear back from the OP on this one.
                  I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Haven't read all the replies.

                    If you want to be sure your horse is taken care of well if you send it away, then 2 x month visit is mandadory...especially if it is an oldie or a brood mare.

                    If you can't manage that, then to be sure all is okay, don't send it away at all.
                    www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                    "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                    Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

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                    • #30
                      A loss of muscle is also a symptom of cushings which can make a horse look bad.

                      I think my first reaction would have been to feed the horse rather than to just leave the property,.
                      It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Update

                        Good news first: Weight changes have been very recent, pony is okay internally.


                        Had the conversation with the barn manager this weekend. Pony has dropped condition dramatically in the last few weeks. They'd been upping his hay and ration of low-starch grain to see if it helped, but it (obviously) hasn't done much. It definitely seems to be muscle wasting, especially in the back and hindquarters. His body condition is also somewhat obscured by his long coat, which looks like classic Cushing's. I should mention that the BM does communicate with me semi-regularly, though I hadn't heard from her in the last 4 weeks or so. The last photo I have from her is from March, and he looked pretty darn normal. I expressed that I'd wished she'd told me about the weight loss and she apologized and agreed that she should have.

                        Some of the responses here questioned why I hadn't called her immediately. The reason was that I wanted to make an unannounced visit beforehand to make sure that he was being given hay in turnout and in his stall (which he was - good quality Bermuda at that). From stories that I've heard, unethical BMs are really good at covering their tracks when someone's checking up on them. I think it was a lapse of judgment rather than something suspicious.

                        We're still waiting on the ACTH result. The clinic didn't want to send it out on Friday because the sample needs to stay cold, so it'll be overnight shipped on Monday. We're also waiting on a fecal egg count; he does get dewormed regularly but the vet said that drug-resistant parasites would make weight gain more difficult.

                        The rest of the bloodwork came back looking good for the most part. CBC was good (vet had been concerned about anemia but all's well). Chemistry profile doesn't show any liver or kidney issues, but he has low albumin and phosphorus. We're adding alfalfa meals to his diet to try to build back some of that muscle and get some more weight on him. Otherwise, he has a bright look in his eye and seems to be coping well. I'm hoping that Pergolide will help with the muscle wasting - people with experience, is this true?

                        I am still planning on moving him closer to my new home. I'm taking a sick day on Monday so that I can spend the weekend here and figure out how and where to move him. I don't have a trailer, for one thing. There is some good news in that an acquaintance of mine keeps horses on her property and may be willing to let me pasture board him there. It's still an hour and a half's drive from where I live, but I would be able to see him more often -- and I see her nearly every day, since she works in my building.

                        And now, to address a few of the concerns raised in this thread:
                        -Pony and pasturemate did have hay in their dry lot the first time I saw them.
                        -I've been satisfied with his care at this barn up to this point. Keep in mind, I've had him there for the last five years and had a close eye on his care before I moved.
                        -A major factor in my decision to leave him there was because of his relationship with his pasture buddy, also a retired gelding. He has historically been bullied and marginalized in herd situations and it is rare for him to have a friend.
                        -If he was depressed, I would consider euthanizing him, but he seems comfortable and happy. This weekend, I've witnessed him greet me, make mean faces at the dogs, and give kisses to his pasturemate. All normal behavior for him.

                        I would love to hear some anecdotal stories about Cushing's, particularly whether Pergolide works and how the horse responded to it.

                        Finally, I knew that I would get flamed, but I was pleasantly surprised by many of the responses here. I appreciate everyone's input and hope that this serves as a cautionary tale.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I have a pony with Cushings that I got as a give-away on Craigslist. He was advertised as a "pony that needs a grass free, grain free environment" and I had a mini in the same scenario needing a buddy, so I got him.

                          At first, we didn't really know what was wrong with him, but he was thin, laminitic, and depressed looking. ACTH came back very high, and we had a few really bad days before the meds kicked in where we considered euthanizing him.

                          But now, on 1/2 Prascend per day, he's in really good shape. I'm not sure he'll ever fully recover his muscle tone over his hind quarters (he's only 15, but was probably symptomatic and untreated for years). But he's happy and comfortable, and has ponytude...so all is well. His last ACTH check was well within normal range while on meds.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            We have an old as dirt POA who has had Cushings for the last... I want to say 6 years? With Pergolide she's been in fantastic condition, she's managed to give very light lessons for the past few years. We had a scare last winter where something (we think it was the very very sudden cold snap that was not common for our area) triggered a founder episode but she recovered from that wonderfully with an upped dosage and went right back to giving lessons. Before people tell me to let her retire, if we ride her buddy and not her, she gets horribly distraught, she is so not ready to retire so we let her do WT with about 5 minutes of cantering total throughout the week. With Pergolide, she's been fantastic, just make sure to do bloodchecks every 6 months or so to make sure dosage is proper, we were due for a dosage check right as she foundered which may have played a part in it.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Senior horses can decline very fast. Often ordinary care that was working for them just stops working for them for whatever reason. Extra babying care can sometimes make the difference - extra small meals, multiple options for food, etc.

                              Also, if they are suddenly eating a lot less, they may not be getting adequate vitamins and minerals. Even in a complete feed - those amounts assume that the horse is eating a lot of that feed. If he's eating only half, then he may be missing out on more than calories.
                              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by POdAlter View Post
                                had a bout of founder two years ago

                                early signs of Cushing's: long winter coat that was reluctant to shed, fat deposits on crest, and of course, the laminitis episode that resulted in founder. This vet did bloodwork and the glucose and insulin were normal, so he did not feel that it was necessary to recommend pergolide.

                                One year ago, I visited him again. He looked good, was turned out on a dry lot with another elderly gelding (who adores him), with plenty of hay. After the founder, I had bought those boots with inserts so that he would be in less pain. However, by this visit he had recovered extremely well. His farrier has done an amazing job with his feet - no rings, greatly reduced sensitivity, does not seem to have any issues moving around. And he's barefoot! It's truly amazing.

                                The vet checked potential causes for weight loss. His teeth look great and there are no signs of ulcers on his cheeks that might discourage him from eating his hay. His gut sounds good. He's not being bullied away from the hay in his dry lot (I watched to make sure; there are only the two geldings there and they happily munched on the hay pile). The hay is good quality and he seems to have plenty and seems to have a good appetite.

                                I'm encouraged that he seems bright and otherwise happy.

                                From what I'm reading, the care at this facility seems good. A dry lot with a couple of old friends and a big pile of good quality hay and proper dental care on the side sounds like excellent care for an older founder prone horse. So I'm mystified by the people who suggest crucifying the BO/BM and moving the horse immediately. The problem was that the BO/BM did not communicate re: the weight loss.

                                Seems to me like the OP is doing all the right things. Get the vet involved, try to figure out some basic things that could improve the horse's weight, and consider a move to a closer barn where the OP can be more involved, which might be necessary at this point in the horse's life.

                                Sometimes despite everyone's best efforts older animals DO lose weight because of some underlying health issue that can't really be treated--a tumor, kidney failure, etc. In those cases, you just do your best.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by onthebit View Post
                                  The fear mongering on COTH gets out of control at times. If you can believe it some boarding barns can actually provide better care than an owner could simply because the knowledge base of the BO/BM is high. My hubby has spent most of his professional career designing and balancing feeds, I have no doubt he has more knowledge about how to feed a horse than any of our clients have (and some of them are quite competent horse people!).
                                  I agree that the negativity towards BO's and BM's on COTH is often out of control. Some of us are actually experts at caring for horses with decades of hands on experience that have included working with vets, farriers, equine nutritionists, etc.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Cushings is a terrible disease. I had two Arabians that had Cushings, different ages, similar breeding and body type. Both at the same time. Both were on Pergolide for years. One for 3 years and died at 28, and one for 6 years that died at almost 26.

                                    Cushings treatments help, as does diet and exercise. It is a terminal disease and eventually they crash. Sometimes it's weight, sometimes founder, sometimes the tumors go cancerous and sometimes the tumors just get so large they affect eyesight and balance.

                                    Both my geldings were stable blood work wise and diet. Both looked great at the time of their deaths. One had his tumor go cancerous, he went down hill in the matter of days, he went blind and while we can't be certain it was the same tumor from Cushings, cancer spread into his brain, throat and mouth. It was deemed Squamous cell and very very rare. The second horse started going blind and lost his balance. The blindness came on slowly but the ataxia very quickly and he had a great deal of pain. Body condition was great but he soon would not be able to walk or get up if he layed down. He was declining very quickly and the outcome was clear.

                                    Hopefully your pony can gain his condition back and the Pergolide help with the symptoms for good long time. If he doesn't respond, it may not be anyone's fault but a nasty disease. The barn owner or manager should have told you of your pony's change but it does sound like a fast change.

                                    Sorry you have to deal with this.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      We took in an elderly pony who had been neglected with active Cushings.
                                      It probably took a month or so to see some noticible improvement.

                                      Here is a blog I created to document her progress:
                                      http://valentinaandlily.blogspot.com/

                                      Unfortunately she suffered a pasture accident and broke her elbow, and after attempting to rehab it for a few months, we had to put her to sleep in March 2014. But the experience was one that I wouldn't trade for anything.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        If you still have confidence in his current barn, you might want to leave him there long enough to start to see some improvements with the Pergolide and alfalfa/increased feed. A sudden change in housing might cause your pony to slide downhill even more before recovering.

                                        Also, before thinking of sending him to a friend's private farm 1.5 hours away, make sure she is willing and able to give the increased care he will need - possibly including individual turnout, feeding multiple times per day, soaking feed, etc. I just recently put down a 33 year old pony with Cushings and very few molars, and he took quite a lot more management than my younger, healthy horses. Not everyone is up for that kind of challenge, so make sure wherever you move him is willing.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Mango20 View Post
                                          If you still have confidence in his current barn, you might want to leave him there long enough to start to see some improvements with the Pergolide and alfalfa/increased feed. A sudden change in housing might cause your pony to slide downhill even more before recovering.

                                          Also, before thinking of sending him to a friend's private farm 1.5 hours away, make sure she is willing and able to give the increased care he will need - possibly including individual turnout, feeding multiple times per day, soaking feed, etc. I just recently put down a 33 year old pony with Cushings and very few molars, and he took quite a lot more management than my younger, healthy horses. Not everyone is up for that kind of challenge, so make sure wherever you move him is willing.
                                          Both these points are well worth considering. The extra TLC of things like extra meals is a lot of extra work and when they need doing they need doing every day. Feeding lunch sounds simple but if your friend ever needs to be away all day it's suddenly a big problem.
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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