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Selling a papered horse...... but.....

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  • Selling a papered horse...... but.....

    Ok I have an interesting situation with a horse I am thinking of buying....

    The person who has the horse (dont want to call her the owner since I am not sure) and is trying to sell her very quickly. She is selling the filly pretty cheap for how she is bred and claims that who ever buys the horse will be able to get the papers on her without issue from the previous owner (who she claims "lost" the papers)....

    She also won't say who is the registered owner until the sale is finalized either... checked the registry and they horse matches the name given bit it also does not show the current registered owner.....

    the person is being honest that the paperwork is not in her possesion but she is claiming that it is available to get (although I dont know how or if the registered owner will want money for them or if they will do something else...)

    Any suggestions or input on this situation? ??

  • #2
    The horse is a grade until the papers are in hand and can be proven to belong to that horse. Price accordingly. If current owner really wants to sell her as papered, current owner needs to do the legwork to get the papers.
    HAS provides hospital care to 340,000 people in Haiti's Artibonite Valley 24/7/365/earthquake/cholera/whatever.
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    • #3
      Ouch. I would assume those papers will never materialize after the sale. If the horse is nice and priced as grade, that's one thing. If you need those papers, then it doesn't look so great...
      Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

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      • #4
        If the papers are that easy to get, why hasn't the seller taken care of it already? I would only buy contingent on the papers becoming available before any money changes hands. Something tells me there's probably some fishy dealings here, and if you buy the horse with a promise of papers to come later they are almost certain to never arrive.
        Flickr

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        • #5
          Shady!

          Are you comfortable that the seller actually has the legal right to sell the horse?

          If you'd like to proceed, assume the papers will NEVER materialize and be pleasantly surprised if you're ever able to track them down.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gerda View Post
            Ok I have an interesting situation with a horse I am thinking of buying....

            She also won't say who is the registered owner until the sale is finalized either... checked the registry and they horse matches the name given bit it also does not show the current registered owner.....

            Any suggestions or input on this situation? ??
            I'm confused. You say the seller won't give you the name of the registered owner until the sale is finalized. Yet you know the name because you've already looked it up? That's how it reads, sorry.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Alex and Bodie's Mom View Post
              I'm confused. You say the seller won't give you the name of the registered owner until the sale is finalized. Yet you know the name because you've already looked it up? That's how it reads, sorry.
              She looked up the name of the horse, not the owner. Although I'm not sure how that proves that the horse matches the name. It just proves that there is a registered horse with that name, but it's not necessarily the one offered for sale.
              Flickr

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              • #8
                Are you having a PPE done? I would make the sale contingent upon the findings of the exam and the registration papers (which I would scrutinize carefully). No papers--no deal, and I want to see the papers and compare the markings/age/registration number, etc. to the horse in front of me. I'm of the same opinion as the others--if you plunk the money down before you get the papers, you will never get them. You have to be willing to call the "seller's" bluff, but you could lose.

                It sounds fishy! Could be the horse is stolen?

                Often people will sell a Thoroughbred and then hold out the papers which they will then try to sell you for additional money. That's not the way it's supposed to be, but if I had a nickel for every time I heard that story I'd be a rich person!
                "Don't blame Hogg or the other teens. The adults are supposed to know better. If only we could find any." ~Tom Nichols, professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College~

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                • #9
                  Simkie called it. Something is badly wrong, here.

                  I'd sign a contract to buy but no money until the paperwork is squared away.

                  G.
                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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                  • #10
                    BTDT but not really papers, USEF records "cleaning."

                    If you want the horse, buy for the horse. Assume you will not get any papers.

                    I have no regrets but my gelding cannot reproduce and has no fancy registry anyway. But apparently he was a KWPN when he was for sale .
                    LarkspurCO: no horse's training is complete until it can calmly yet expressively perform GP in stadium filled w/chainsaw juggling zombies riding unicycles while flying monkeys w/bottle rockets...

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Alex and Bodie's Mom View Post
                      I'm confused. You say the seller won't give you the name of the registered owner until the sale is finalized. Yet you know the name because you've already looked it up? That's how it reads, sorry.
                      I was given the registered name of the horse not the name of the owners and since I am not an Apha member I cant find out who the owner on record is from what I have found.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        The description of the horse age and other information on allbreedpedigree.com matched. So my guess is that that is the horse for those papers.

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                        • #13
                          Anyone can add a horse to allbreedpedigree and make up whatever pedigree they want for said horse.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by furlong47 View Post
                            She looked up the name of the horse, not the owner. Although I'm not sure how that proves that the horse matches the name. It just proves that there is a registered horse with that name, but it's not necessarily the one offered for sale.
                            Ah, I get it now. Thanks. And you're right -- that just proves there's a horse by that name.

                            Honestly, OP -- I'd walk, unless you're okay with this being a grade horse its entire life, or (since you mentioned it's APHA) registering her Pinto. Something just isn't right here.

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                            • #15
                              Find someone that is an APHA member who can look it up for you, or call the association and tell them what's happening. They might provide the info to you over the phone.

                              I would NOT buy this horse until you find out the backstory. The horse could be stolen, there could be insurance fraud going on (was supposed to be euthed), the horse might not be who you think it is... who knows.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Cherry View Post
                                Are you having a PPE done? I would make the sale contingent upon the findings of the exam and the registration papers (which I would scrutinize carefully). No papers--no deal, and I want to see the papers and compare the markings/age/registration number, etc. to the horse in front of me.
                                I wouldn't schedule a PPE (money spent by me) until the papers issue was resolved.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

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                                • #17
                                  I've seen variations on this theme before. The witholding the registered owners name is a huge red flag. The fact that they won't let you vet the papers is a big deal.

                                  I have dealt primarily with registered horses, so over the years I've heard all kinds of scenarios of "I don't have the papers BUT..." The fact that the seller refuses to tell you who the previous owner of record is is a HUGE HUGE HUGE red flag. Proceed with extreme caution.

                                  Here are the tales of woe I have heard... all more than once. A lot more than once:

                                  1) Current owner legit owns the horse, doesn't have it in their names because the transfer was lost/they never bothered to send it in, so a new transfer needs to be signed. Contact with previous owner still exists, everything is fine, no big deal. This is the best possible scenario. Just lost paperwork. No bad feelings. It doesn't mean anyone will actually get around to DOING the paperwork... (and no, you cannot compell the paperwork to be done!)

                                  2) Horse was sold without papers. To GET papers requires additional money. EG, 2 prices: 1 registered, 1 not registered. If you go back to the last recorded owner they will probably want $.

                                  2a) (Variant) Horse was sold without papers due to having some defect or health situation, and the prior owner wants to make sure it's not bred/shown/whatever so the papers are deliberately not there, nor will you get them.

                                  3) Last recorded owner is not actually in possession of the papers and gave the same song and dance to current owner. And the actual recorded owner is like 5 owners ago. Good luck with that.

                                  4) Seller did not finish paying for horse. Previous owner refuses to release papers until current owner antes up. Current owner is selling horse and passing the problem on to buyer.

                                  5) Horse is not actually registered but is "eligible" to be registered or there is an application to be registered.. if a late stallion report is filed etc etc etc. Oh, and BTW, the dam is now dead so no DNA can be done... etc etc etc (these can turn into a nightmare)

                                  This is very, very shady. I have never heard of a circumstance where the current owner refuses to give out information about the prior owner. Normally sellers are VERY eager to give out this information to prove that they're being honest and secure the value of the horse.

                                  Given that we are going into winter, and this mare is bred, and has no papers, I would be highly suspect that the seller is trying to rid themselves of a problem: a mare they CAN'T get papers on, and a foal that won't be able to get papers. Seen that before too. Owner thought they could get papers, turns out they couldn't (pick a reason), tries to unload mare before she foals.

                                  Are you saying that the registry does not have ANY current ownership information for the horse? Or that the current registered owner does not match the person you are dealing with? That would just mean the horse was never transferred to the current owner, which makes sense if the current owner doesn't have the papers.

                                  If there is NO current owner that's very strange. I would wonder if the papers had been pulled. Call the registry in that case.

                                  If there's a name listed, you could try finding that person and contacting them. They may be pretty far back in the chain of custody.

                                  The fact that the seller REFUSES to supply you with this rather pertinent bit of info is very, very sketchy. I would not be surprised if something extremely shady is going on here.

                                  Honestly? I'd just walk away.
                                  "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

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                                  • #18
                                    You will never get the papers.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by littleum View Post
                                      .........

                                      4) Seller did not finish paying for horse. Previous owner refuses to release papers until current owner antes up. Current owner is selling horse and passing the problem on to buyer.


                                      If there is NO current owner that's very strange. I would wonder if the papers had been pulled. Call the registry in that case.

                                      The fact that the seller REFUSES to supply you with this rather pertinent bit of info is very, very sketchy. I would not be surprised if something extremely shady is going on here........

                                      This was exactly what I thought! Too many red flags; if she is trying to make a quick deal at a cheap price something. Call the registry and inquire or ask someone here that is a member of that breed to look up the registry for you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I wouldn't buy. If you didn't think this might be fishy you would not have started the thread. Listen to your inner voice, its screaming for a reason. If you do buy don't count on the papers, they are not going to materialize.
                                        Just like our eyes, our hearts have a way of adjusting to the dark.--Adam Stanley

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