Arena Fee's

[HungarianHippo]

ok CHT wins for most bizarre and yet apt analogy ever.
I agree that lesson riders tend to monopolize an arena, unintentionally. It's very hard to tune out the instructor. So yes, the OP usually has the arena to herself, but maybe it's partly because people think "oh, that's when Suzie has her lessons, I'll just go a bit later". And as more and more lessons are added, it could become a real issue.

But bottom line: BO does not have to justify or defend the fact that she is wringing a little more revenue from this pricey investment she's made. That arena fees are becoming the norm is all the proof the BO needs that there's additional revenue out there to be had, so she should take advantage of that.

Now, she's prob not being 100% straightforward when she says the fee is "caused" by increased arena maintenance. That's probably a slightly red herring. A pink herring. (But tell me what business has ever raised their prices and said "Because we can." No, they'll cite raw material costs, or new features or improved quality.)

The market is efficient and will correct things if the business gets too greedy. They'll lose customers, then prices will come down in order to retain / attract clients.

For the hypothetical vet or farrier fee, I agree that the transaction structure is fundamentally similar; outside pros are getting money for a service provided in someone else's facility. But pricing issues do not have to be logical; the market won't tolerate those fees, they're not the norm, so BOs are reluctant to charge them.

[starhorse]

At what point does "outside trainer" become resident trainer? At any place where you have more than one trainer (for example, trainers that cater to different disciplines), you're going to have the annoyance factor you describe, even where the other trainers are the barn's resident trainer for that discipline.

Totally. But resident trainer is giving a cut to the barn owner for the exact same work as outside trainer. That cut is going towards the overall management of the facilities, meaning it doesn't need to be made up in my board bill, or the hay/shavings being budgeted more carefully because the overall budget is tighter. So, if other resident trainer is teaching a lesson during my lesson, she IS "paying" for that time in the cut that she gives to the barn owner. Outside trainer is coming, making full money, and inconveniencing everyone else who DOES pay to ride there or teach there.

That feels unfair to me.

[IPEsq]

Ah, see, I've seen scenarios where resident trainer doesn't give a cut, so I don't think you can assume that is the case. Sometimes, resident trainer's activities are just to help attract boarders.

In your scenario, then a fee to outside trainers make sense because resident trainers are paying a fee, albeit in a slightly different form.

[starhorse]

Ah, see, I've seen scenarios where resident trainer doesn't give a cut, so I don't think you can assume that is the case. Sometimes, resident trainer's activities are just to help attract boarders.

In your scenario, then a fee to outside trainers make sense because resident trainers are paying a fee, albeit in a slightly different form.

Hm - I'd never heard of that, unless they're paying a flat fee for the use of the facility regardless of the number of lessons.

Just goes to show there are all kinds of arrangements out there!

[Skyis4ever]

Thank you for the replies! I didn't think this would turn out be that much of a discussion. The trainer does not pay the fee. The boarder is expected to take care of it. As for jumps being left out- Any jumps dragged out are always expected to be put back unless the BO was the one to put them there. The group lesson leaves jumps out all the time. I'm taking dressage lessons so I've never had to get the jumps out.
My lessons are not private and anyone may ride while I ride. I've never wanted to discourage people though so I have lessons when no one else comes out. The barn is primarily a western/trail riding barn with just a couple English riders that are college kids. I'm taking dressage lessons. My trainer is also very expensive (which I work off because I could not afford that) and upper level so I highly doubt anyone who randomly decided to take a dressage lesson would want to pay that much. I have tried many times to get a clinic with a few different dressage riders but I can't get a single person to sign up

[creseida]

I operate a small boarding facility and teach lessons as well. If one of my boarders wants to bring in an outside trainer for lessons for his or her use, I don't charge extra for that trainer. The boarder is paying for the use of the arena in their board and to me, that includes taking lessons, whether it is from me or someone else. That trainer must provide proof of insurance prior to teaching any lessons and the outside trainer must work around my lesson schedule.

However, if a boarder were to tell their trainer they can use their horse to teach lessons at my facility, or if a boarder wanted to teach lessons on their horse, I would then charge a ring fee. I would also charge a ring fee per horse for a trainer who asks to haul in students to use my facilities. Again, proof of insurance would be required.

[BarbaricYawp]

Typically a trainer coming in to teach at a facility is expected to pay a fee to the owner of the facility. I understand this, especially at strictly boarding barns without a training program. The problem is that the trainer usually passes the fee on to the student.
Thus if the trainer's rate to come to you to teach is $50 and the BO institutes a $15 ring fee, the lesson suddenly becomes $65. I think that travelling trainers who are carrying no overhead but who have the opportunity to earn money using others' facilities should probably absorb that fee as a cost of doing business.

Not after you specifically Linny, but just so I'm clear on this -- the barn owner is asking for a cut of the money that the trainer is making using the BO property and because the trainer doesn't want to pay the fee and passes it along, the BO is the bad guy?

To me the analogy is you rent an apartment+utilities at an agreed upon amount. Then you start inviting friends to live with you. Yes, it's the same space, but extra people mean more water, cooking fuel or electricity, wear and tear on the rooms etc. Most lease agreements I've seen stipulate the number of individuals that can live there and prohibit 'subleasing', which is what this kind of feels like to me.

[blujen]

I've boarded at barns like this, where outside trainers came in to give lessons, and I REALLY prefer when they're not allowed at all. OP you may THINK you're not inconveniencing anyone, but really if I know that you are taking lessons at a certain time on a certain day, then I feel like i am not allowed to be there. Outside trainers have often made it really inconvenient to ride during the lesson, even if it's technically allowed, and have sometimes been just downright rude about it.

In house programs are easier - lesson schedules seldom change, and you either are or are not allowed to ride during lessons, there's no passive aggressive ringsmanship going on. I don't have to plan to go to the barn at 9pm to hopefully avoid randomly scheduled lessons.

If I were to board somewhere again (horses are at home now) and they started allowing outside trainers in, even just occasionally, I would start looking elsewhere to board. The arena fee is a deterrent, a way to tell the trainer that they MAY come, but they're not encouraged to do so, and not encouraged to expand at this barn.

Vets and Farriers are generally not charged the extra fee, because all horses require their services, and so that level of wear and tear is built into the actual board price. Not everyone uses outside trainers.

[Skyis4ever]

No one knows when my lessons are. They are not posted and are not on the same days nor at the same times. In two years I've seen one girl out when I had a lesson. She wanted to ride outside so I rode inside but most of my work was walk trot on a circle off of the track. Someone could have easily ridden around me, no different than if I'd been lunging my horse which people do a lot and take up a portion of the arena. The vast majority of the riders ride at 5 or 6 a few nights a week and there's only 6 of them. The owner has rented the arena for events where boarders couldn't ride and the polo team had use of the facilities last year. There were two hours every night boarders couldn't ride. These things didn't really bother me except a few times I wanted to ride at night, so I highly doubt I'm preventing people from riding when they want.
I don't think the arena fee is a deterrent seeing as the owner is encouraging me to set up a clinic (different trainer than I use), has tried to set up various clinics before but not enough people signed up, is making sure the trainer who does the group lesson comes every other week, and is very much trying to set up a huge clinic in a few weeks. Like 10 people, all day thing.

[IPEsq]

I think the clinic thing is a different animal--I'd expect the BO to ask for fees at least from each outside rider that comes in for it, so BO could be encouraging a clinic (a one-time inconvenience for non-participants) as a way to make money.

There are some similarities to regular training from an outside trainer, but I don't think you can jump from "BO wants to hold clinics" to "arena fee isn't a deterrent for to-be-regularly-scheduled outside trainers".